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SainterK wrote:I reckon Mick went a bit self preservation at the end of 2009 by playing the kids, it paid dividends and brought him a flag, but not a long term senior coaching career at the Pies.
See to me that is the exact opposite of self preservation. Playing kids is a punt and sometimes it is the end of your coaching career. Recycling is the easy way out.
So you start playing kids when you're a kick away from the flag and should have won it and all you need to do is tweak?
Club wants to renew RL on an extended contract. Â Guaranteed.
Geelongs cores group also, had been delivering well for a long time yet they've still managed to slot a few noobs into the lineup, new players who are doing pretty damn well!
Of course not every team can do things exactly the same.
But it is clear that we need to figure out which of our young players are worth keeping beyond 2011.
The gone list is growing every week
Kosi, dumpster, blake, baker, mcqualter, Gilbert, Clarke.
With these guys gone there will be a nice hole to fill with new guys for 2012 and beyond.
SainterK wrote:I reckon Mick went a bit self preservation at the end of 2009 by playing the kids, it paid dividends and brought him a flag, but not a long term senior coaching career at the Pies.
See to me that is the exact opposite of self preservation. Playing kids is a punt and sometimes it is the end of your coaching career. Recycling is the easy way out.
So you start playing kids when you're a kick away from the flag and should have won it and all you need to do is tweak?
Club wants to renew RL on an extended contract. Guaranteed.
Didn't read your latest post P66.
well it sounds we are in agreement.
What do you mean?
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
plugger66 wrote:
Didn't read your latest post P66.
What do you mean?
I haven't read your next post
you should follow my lead dr who...don't read them...and certainly don't reply to them... even if you happen to read one by mistake....works for me... [/quote]
yes. this.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
ralphsmith wrote:Geelongs cores group also, had been delivering well for a long time yet they've still managed to slot a few noobs into the lineup, new players who are doing pretty damn well!
Unfortunately thats where Ross's argument about "being all for winning a flag" as a reason for not introducing more kids falls down. Cats were also about winning flags....still played and introduced kids.....some would say Hawkings? is their Kosi....
We need to keep Lyon, accept this as a flaw in his plan and move on - but lets not pretend that we didnt "settle" for a bottom end of a list made up of "role" players as opposed to taking a punt on topping up with some youth and just maybe at the same bridging the gap between our best and our worst.
If as someone else posted elsewhere, our worst player today was a Jimmy Gwilt.....we'd be a very strong side more capable of dealing with the loss of a Hayes. Its not all hindsight - this call has been made well before we were in this position by quite a few.
Regardless, nows the time to give Ross his head.....let him know he's backed to the hilt, make a stand and reinvigorate this team with youth. Lyon now has to wear 2 hats EQUALLY ...no longer judged solely as a "tacical genius" but perhaps more importantly....a developer. This will be intrguing - IMHO this will challenge Lyon to the core of some of his footballing philosophies......no longer can we wait for 4 yrs VFL apprenticeps before we see regular games from youth and no longer can we fritter away picks on recycled players as we just dont have the timeto get this horribly wrong if we want to challenge with this core...
Con Gorozidis wrote:I would argue some of his selections didnt help himself in the here and now.
Yeah we were winning matches. But that was in spite of some of our bottom 6. Not because of them.
Two flags missed by a kick... you could argue that if Milne had laced his boots differently they'd be ours.
But it's pointless... forward we go.
Lyon is a keeper, no doubt about it.
Couldn't agree more.
When they created LENNY HAYES (in the shadow of Harvs) they forgot to break the mold (again)- hence the Supremely Incredible Jack Steven!!
Con Gorozidis wrote:I would argue some of his selections didnt help himself in the here and now.
Yeah we were winning matches. But that was in spite of some of our bottom 6. Not because of them.
Two flags missed by a kick... you could argue that if Milne had laced his boots differently they'd be ours.
But it's pointless... forward we go.
Lyon is a keeper, no doubt about it.
Couldn't agree more.
Was out last night and overheard a St Kilda board member tell his mates that they want to offer RL an extended contract. If he leaves it would only be becuase a club like Carlton offers him a big contract. I know it's naughty to listen to other peoples conversations but...
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
ralphsmith wrote:Geelongs cores group also, had been delivering well for a long time yet they've still managed to slot a few noobs into the lineup, new players who are doing pretty damn well!
Unfortunately thats where Ross's argument about "being all for winning a flag" as a reason for not introducing more kids falls down. Cats were also about winning flags....still played and introduced kids.....some would say Hawkings? is their Kosi....
We need to keep Lyon, accept this as a flaw in his plan and move on - but lets not pretend that we didnt "settle" for a bottom end of a list made up of "role" players as opposed to taking a punt on topping up with some youth and just maybe at the same bridging the gap between our best and our worst.
If as someone else posted elsewhere, our worst player today was a Jimmy Gwilt.....we'd be a very strong side more capable of dealing with the loss of a Hayes. Its not all hindsight - this call has been made well before we were in this position by quite a few.
Regardless, nows the time to give Ross his head.....let him know he's backed to the hilt, make a stand and reinvigorate this team with youth. Lyon now has to wear 2 hats EQUALLY ...no longer judged solely as a "tacical genius" but perhaps more importantly....a developer. This will be intrguing - IMHO this will challenge Lyon to the core of some of his footballing philosophies......no longer can we wait for 4 yrs VFL apprenticeps before we see regular games from youth and no longer can we fritter away picks on recycled players as we just dont have the timeto get this horribly wrong if we want to challenge with this core...
Agree 100%
The one area of his thinking ( team selection ) and the not blooding of youth for the HERE AND NOW where IMO he has totally ****** UP!
For all we know a young kid coming through who was not played in 09 and 10 might have been the difference in actually winning a premiership had an opportunity been given.
stkildathunda wrote:Ross Lyon blooded 5 kids last year, its not his fault they werent upto scratch.
Nick Heyne
Tom Lynch
Luke Miles
Rhys Stanley
Jack Steven (alright he may have debuted in 09 but hardly played)
Who else has there been to blood over the years? All these kids have been in the system for 2 or 3 years and still failed to hold down a spot.
This.
The one's with potential (say if we are talking last year) were injured late anyway, and couldn't of been the 'difference'
I'd of loved an Armo or a Steven in the GF or replay, I'm sure Ross would of as well.
For me, the issue is that when some of these guys played they were thrown in the deep a bit too much.
The idea really, of blooding kids is to slide them in and ease them into it all. Play them alongside the guns, with minor roles and let them play bit parts whilst they learn their trade.
The role Stanley was asked to do, was too much for him really. He pretty much filled a role left by either Nick Riewoldt or Kosi. Big shoes to fill and very tough to find your feet playing such a key structural role in a team.
Lynch was a bit the same. First crack at it, and he's forced to chase the arse of one of the bexk defenders of the modern era around all day!
Ideally, blooding guys means a month of footy at least in minor roles.
You can't always do it of course. But there's a reason most debutants start in the forward pocket or a back pocket or flank.
I am still bemused as to who all the "kids" are that were supposedly robbed of "being blooded" games.
Now addmitedly we traded quite heavily and these meant less kids...but so have the Pies over recent years.
Main problem is rather IMO that the kids we did not recruit were not on average as good as they needed to have been.
This is not just under Ross, but GT too and IMO points to the club sticking to 1970 style recruiting too long while other "best practice recruiting" clubs had made this alot more rigourous and scientific.
There was a "recruiting race" going on and the Saints have been left flagging in this most critical era.
Bevo was good in his day.....but was outmoded for the Naughties.
IMO Ross did very well and out-performed with the list he had which had a lot or "ordinary" players in it.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
