Ross Lyon could appease the masses by...

[skeptic]

No point having more goalkickers if there is no supply!!!

And finally - to make a point about McQualter's game in GF1 - if he had not played we would not have had a second crack at it at all!

Maybe a player that could have given us a supply as well

Maybe we woudn't have needed a 'second crack' if there was a player in the team that was effective in the 1st half.

Say Luke Miles on a HBF, Gilbert on the HFF earlier

I don't get your previous post as they're are clearly other factors beyond just tackling. And my point isn't just about the grand final. When his tackling and pressure dropped off over periods in the season he still retained his spot for the most part.

Ace - are you saying that we should reward mediocre performances in the seniors rather than the 1sts.
Wouldn't it have been better to make Andrew earn his spot back and give someone an opportunity to step up... what would we have lost?
Absolutely nothing and potentially may have gained something

By that logic Gwilt would seldom have gotten a game over the last 3 years. He's never been a super dominant VFL player. Getting games into him helped his devlopment though and when he got the opportunity he took it

Forgive me if I'm not mistaken but Andrew's game in the 2s wasn't particularly dominant either

[InkerSaint]

Now you're just being argumentative.

I just don't get it.

What was role and why the consistent faith in him?

What do other people think?

I gave you a premise, based on facts, that supported why he might have earned a consistent spot in the team.

Your real argument is that Ross has got the formula wrong, but like so many here that rail and hammer on about facts, you can't actually supply any to support your argument.

Maybe a player that could have given us a supply as well

Possession count? McQualter beats all comers on your list in that stat too.

[Dr Spaceman]

While we're at it, why don't we also assume that Lyon understood there was a deficiency with inside 50 entries that he couldn't fix with the personnel available, and that he wanted as much forward pressure as possible to help keep the ball in there to create opportunities for conversion?

No point having more goalkickers if there is no supply!!!

And finally - to make a point about McQualter's game in GF1 - if he had not played we would not have had a second crack at it at all!

Not having a go at you InkerSaint, but obviously we can't change what has occured in the past (though it is fun to theorise and that's what these forums are for ).

For me I care less about what happened in 2010 than what happens in 2011.

I think the role that McQualter has been playing will change and it will be up to Mini to prove he is still the best option for it.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I find the level of disenchantment with McQualter baffling. Not as baffling as the idea that there are "masses" that Ross Lyon needs to "appease"... but pretty baffling.

Mini's not an excitement machine or anything, but he's a pretty solid player. While he mightn't be worlds ahead of the likes of Armo/Steven/Eddy, nor is it clear any of those 3 are ahead of Mini.

[InkerSaint]

Not having a go at you InkerSaint, but obviously we can't change what has occured in the past (though it is fun to theorise and that's what these forums are for ).

Theorise away. But show me one player that would have taken McQualter's spot, and I'll show you another that McQualter would replace and still remain in the 22.

BAM! is spot on. Lyon has nothing to explain (as if he would) that is not already in plain sight.

For me I care less about what happened in 2010 than what happens in 2011.

That's not what the OP asked for.

[Dr Spaceman]

Not having a go at you InkerSaint, but obviously we can't change what has occured in the past (though it is fun to theorise and that's what these forums are for ).

Theorise away. But show me one player that would have taken McQualter's spot, and I'll show you another that McQualter would replace and still remain in the 22.

BAM! is spot on. Lyon has nothing to explain (as if he would) that is not already in plain sight.

For me I care less about what happened in 2010 than what happens in 2011.

That's not what the OP asked for.

Relax Inker - I'm on your side

[skeptic]

Inkersaint

firstly, I am enjoying this debate with you and your respectful manner (no sarcasm).
I don't get your last post though.

I'm arguiung that a number of players may have been more effective in Andrew's spot. McQualter was not dropped though (well once for a week) but pretty much played the full season.
I'm arguing a what if and a probability. I can't really give you stats on that.

I'm not going to look them up but on a limb, I bet on the games that they did play, Armitage, Geary, Steven and Miles pbly did get more possessions than Andrew.

I think David was averaging more possessions, more tackles and kicked more goals (that's a guess though)

Jack Steven's game Vs Geelong was pbly better than any game Mini played this season. Wouldn't he have been worth more of a punt?

I'm pretty sure Geary was more effective in the backline than Andrew was a a forward. Wouldn't it have been worthwhile placing Geary on a HBF and experimenting with Gilbert, Fisher, Clake (before injury), Baker.
Maybe have Goddard down there more often and for longer periods.

I don't think I'm arguing that the forumla is wrong. I get the need for a player in that role.
I just don't think he produced a level of football that was worthy of a spot

Bam, to address ur post

Didn't get much in way of possessions
Not effective around goals
thought his disposal was average
don't think he set up many goals
don't think he shut his opponents down

All in all I reckon he had about 5 ok games this year out of 24 and a few of them had more to do with high tackle counts then anything else.
I think a player should have to do more in the team then run and chase. They're the bare minimums

Are you really happy with what Andrew produced this year?
Whilst Eddy/Armitage/Steven may not be ahead of him at all, weren't they at least worth more of a shot.

I may be wrong but I got a sense on this forum that a lot more forumites have been as if not moreso critical of Mini as me

[InkerSaint]

I'm arguiung that a number of players may have been more effective in Andrew's spot. McQualter was not dropped though (well once for a week) but pretty much played the full season.
I'm arguing a what if and a probability. I can't really give you stats on that.

And all I'm saying is the stats don't support that.

I'm not going to look them up but on a limb, I bet on the games that they did play, Armitage, Geary, Steven and Miles pbly did get more possessions than Andrew.

I think David was averaging more possessions, more tackles and kicked more goals (that's a guess though)

That's a no to all except Armitage. Mine's Carlton Draught, thanks.

They're really not that hard to look up.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tp-st-kilda-saints

Armo 4 goals from 9 games, McQualter 8 goals from 25 games. Neither were earth-shattering. Let's put it this way - both more likely to go goalless than not.

I'm going to take a leap of faith and say that Armitage lacked either health or match conditioning to land a spot. Stiff not to be in, and it wouldn't have been McQualter he displaced.

Jack Steven's game Vs Geelong was pbly better than any game Mini played this season. Wouldn't he have been worth more of a punt?

Let's take the game against the Cats and do a deep-dive.

Geelong were up 16 points at half time, and 24 down by the final siren. They had 52 inside 50s to the Saints' 55, couldn't convert, and were strangled in the second half. A glaring statistic that stands out for Geelong is disposals - 374, well below their average. With 10 goals the Saints weren't particularly efficient either.

McQualter: 23 disposals, 3 tackles, 2 goal assists. Steven: 14 disposals, 4 tackles, 3 goals.

Did Steven have a better game than McQualter? They both had good games.

Was Steven's output flattered by the inside-50 count and the game conditions? Arguably.

How many more games like that did he produce? One, against Melbourne the following week.

[bergholt]

Armo 4 goals from 9 games, McQualter 8 goals from 25 games. Neither were earth-shattering. Let's put it this way - both more likely to go goalless than not.

i disagree with this. 4 from 9 games is about the same rate as gram, gardiner, peake. approaching one every two games, which for a saints midfielder is acceptable. on the other hand, 8 from 25 games is approaching one every three - 50% fewer - around the same level as eddy and below hayes and mcevoy.

there's just no argument that armitage doesn't look significantly better than mcqualter on the stats.

disposals: 15.7 to 13.4
tackles: 5.6 to 4.2
goals: 0.4 to 0.3
inside 50s: 2.1 to 1.5

armo wins, statistically, so the stats do, to some extent, support the thesis that he should have played in front of mcqualter. however, we need to take into account that he played in a completely different position - inside mid, as opposed to defensive half-forward. and (as you said) that he might have been injured.

[plugger66]

Armo 4 goals from 9 games, McQualter 8 goals from 25 games. Neither were earth-shattering. Let's put it this way - both more likely to go goalless than not.

i disagree with this. 4 from 9 games is about the same rate as gram, gardiner, peake. approaching one every two games, which for a saints midfielder is acceptable. on the other hand, 8 from 25 games is approaching one every three - 50% fewer - around the same level as eddy and below hayes and mcevoy.

there's just no argument that armitage doesn't look significantly better than mcqualter on the stats.

disposals: 15.7 to 13.4
tackles: 5.6 to 4.2
goals: 0.4 to 0.3
inside 50s: 2.1 to 1.5

armo wins, statistically, so the stats do, to some extent, support the thesis that he should have played in front of mcqualter. however, we need to take into account that he played in a completely different position - inside mid, as opposed to defensive half-forward. and (as you said) that he might have been injured.

Armo was not considered because of injury but i doubt he would have been if fully fit. His work rate is poor and that is the main reason he doesnt play much. Yes he get tackles but he lacks run and doesn break the lines. Armo has one year to make something of himself but to me he is always just going to be an average midfielder but I cannot ever see him being a goal kicking half forward.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Inkersaint

I'm not going to look them up but on a limb, I bet on the games that they did play, Armitage, Geary, Steven and Miles pbly did get more possessions than Andrew.

I think David was averaging more possessions, more tackles and kicked more goals (that's a guess though)

Jack Steven's game Vs Geelong was pbly better than any game Mini played this season. Wouldn't he have been worth more of a punt?
...

Bam, to address ur post

Didn't get much in way of possessions
Not effective around goals
thought his disposal was average
don't think he set up many goals
don't think he shut his opponents down

So, making a fairly long argument which leans towards the numbers (possessions, goals...)it's too hard to look up the numbers?

Let me help then.

Steven played 6 games (as a forward). He averaged 11 disposals a game, score 10 goals, and 5 assists, and 4 tackles. He had a disposal efficiency of 74%.

Armitage played 9 games (predominantly as a mid) and averaged 16 disposals a game. He scored 4 total, had 2 assists total, and averaged 6 (!) tackles a game. He had 72% effectiveness.

Geary played 19 games (as a defender), 17 disposals a game, he scored 4 goals, had 11 assists averaging 3 tackles a game, and was 69% effective with his disposal.

Eddy played 10 games (generalist), averaged 12 disposals, had 3 goals and 6 assists, averaging 3 tackles a game. Was 70% effective for disposal.

McQualter played 25 games, averaged 13 disposals a game (forward), with 8 goals, 27 assists, and 4 tackles. He had a 74% disposal efficiency.

To be frank, the only things that stand out from that group are that Armitage tackles a lot (news to nobody) and Geary's disposal is worse than I thought.

I suspect if Mini kicked more goals he'd find more fans... interesting when you look at Steven's game log that as well as having a few good games, he had a few stinkers and got deservedly dropped... he's clearly the biggest threat to the spot, as his forward pressure numbers aren't bad at all, and his scoreboard pressure numbers are clearly the best of the group. Armitage seems to be pretty much the midfield version of McQualter.

[InkerSaint]

there's just no argument that armitage doesn't look significantly better than mcqualter on the stats.

Not from me either, if you read my post.

That's a no to all except Armitage.

I'm going to take a leap of faith and say that Armitage lacked either health or match conditioning to land a spot. Stiff not to be in, and it wouldn't have been McQualter he displaced.

[DWOODROW]

I hope this clears a few things up.

I hear ya brother

On a more serious note, I know you have been, and will continue to be, accused of bias but I do appreciate where you're coming from.

Well Thankyou. I'm glad someone does.

[matrix]

I said Mini was ordinary all year and was told I was an idiot because he was playing an important part in the teams structure.

Personally I think Steven would be a better inclusion than Mini is and even then I don't think Steven has done too much yet to warrant automatic selection.

ALL team memebrs need to step up next year and have a fair crack. The window is closing and those that arn't performing regardless of what the role, structure or who they are should be made accountable. Having one bad game shouldn't mean you are automatically dropped. A number of games in succesion that are bad should.

I hope this clears a few things up.

I hear ya brother

that u armo???

[Dr Spaceman]

I said Mini was ordinary all year and was told I was an idiot because he was playing an important part in the teams structure.

Personally I think Steven would be a better inclusion than Mini is and even then I don't think Steven has done too much yet to warrant automatic selection.

ALL team memebrs need to step up next year and have a fair crack. The window is closing and those that arn't performing regardless of what the role, structure or who they are should be made accountable. Having one bad game shouldn't mean you are automatically dropped. A number of games in succesion that are bad should.

I hope this clears a few things up.

I hear ya brother

that u armo???

No....... and I'm not lego either

[matrix]

ahh lego
brings back some childhood memories

i wanted a life size millenium falcon made of lego.

[SaintPav]

Armo 4 goals from 9 games, McQualter 8 goals from 25 games. Neither were earth-shattering. Let's put it this way - both more likely to go goalless than not.

i disagree with this. 4 from 9 games is about the same rate as gram, gardiner, peake. approaching one every two games, which for a saints midfielder is acceptable. on the other hand, 8 from 25 games is approaching one every three - 50% fewer - around the same level as eddy and below hayes and mcevoy.

there's just no argument that armitage doesn't look significantly better than mcqualter on the stats.

disposals: 15.7 to 13.4
tackles: 5.6 to 4.2
goals: 0.4 to 0.3
inside 50s: 2.1 to 1.5

armo wins, statistically, so the stats do, to some extent, support the thesis that he should have played in front of mcqualter. however, we need to take into account that he played in a completely different position - inside mid, as opposed to defensive half-forward. and (as you said) that he might have been injured.

Armo was not considered because of injury but i doubt he would have been if fully fit. His work rate is poor and that is the main reason he doesnt play much. Yes he get tackles but he lacks run and doesn break the lines. Armo has one year to make something of himself but to me he is always just going to be an average midfielder but I cannot ever see him being a goal kicking half forward.

This is 110% correct.

[DWOODROW]

Armo 4 goals from 9 games, McQualter 8 goals from 25 games. Neither were earth-shattering. Let's put it this way - both more likely to go goalless than not.

i disagree with this. 4 from 9 games is about the same rate as gram, gardiner, peake. approaching one every two games, which for a saints midfielder is acceptable. on the other hand, 8 from 25 games is approaching one every three - 50% fewer - around the same level as eddy and below hayes and mcevoy.

there's just no argument that armitage doesn't look significantly better than mcqualter on the stats.

disposals: 15.7 to 13.4
tackles: 5.6 to 4.2
goals: 0.4 to 0.3
inside 50s: 2.1 to 1.5

armo wins, statistically, so the stats do, to some extent, support the thesis that he should have played in front of mcqualter. however, we need to take into account that he played in a completely different position - inside mid, as opposed to defensive half-forward. and (as you said) that he might have been injured.

Armo was not considered because of injury but i doubt he would have been if fully fit. His work rate is poor and that is the main reason he doesnt play much. Yes he get tackles but he lacks run and doesn break the lines. Armo has one year to make something of himself but to me he is always just going to be an average midfielder but I cannot ever see him being a goal kicking half forward.

This is 110% correct.

I'm sure he could play a better average HFF than Mcqualter though.

[SainterK]

Armo 4 goals from 9 games, McQualter 8 goals from 25 games. Neither were earth-shattering. Let's put it this way - both more likely to go goalless than not.

i disagree with this. 4 from 9 games is about the same rate as gram, gardiner, peake. approaching one every two games, which for a saints midfielder is acceptable. on the other hand, 8 from 25 games is approaching one every three - 50% fewer - around the same level as eddy and below hayes and mcevoy.

there's just no argument that armitage doesn't look significantly better than mcqualter on the stats.

disposals: 15.7 to 13.4
tackles: 5.6 to 4.2
goals: 0.4 to 0.3
inside 50s: 2.1 to 1.5

armo wins, statistically, so the stats do, to some extent, support the thesis that he should have played in front of mcqualter. however, we need to take into account that he played in a completely different position - inside mid, as opposed to defensive half-forward. and (as you said) that he might have been injured.

Armo was not considered because of injury but i doubt he would have been if fully fit. His work rate is poor and that is the main reason he doesnt play much. Yes he get tackles but he lacks run and doesn break the lines. Armo has one year to make something of himself but to me he is always just going to be an average midfielder but I cannot ever see him being a goal kicking half forward.

This is 110% correct.

I'm sure he could play a better average HFF than Mcqualter though.

Going by what Ross has said, I think Lenny will spend a little more time on the bench next year, and Armo and Polo perhaps will compete for another spot that is slowly opening?

Perhaps Armo will do well to have somone else around the place that can play his position?

That's not really having a go at him, but I am sure all players benefit from competition for spots?