Best 10 players - are very good

[maverick]

Good post St M.
Really like the recognition given to Gram and Jones.
I think Bakes is a B grader as is Gardiner.
Ray for mine is a C grader.
Dawson, Gwilt and Geary are still D graders for mine.

The fact that Lyon has recruited some excellent B graders says a lot.

[rexy]

Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

Because Ball is a C grade mid and Lovett would have been an A grade mid...
Huge money is an overtstatement, even for you....

Lyon let Ball walk away, didnt get rid of him.

We already had in and under ball winners who had better skills than Luke Ball, we lacked leg speed.

Both b grade mids IMO, one very good at the contest but not quick or penetrating. The other quick and penetrating but defensively deficient IMO.

[maverick]

Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

Because Ball is a C grade mid and Lovett would have been an A grade mid...
Huge money is an overtstatement, even for you....

Lyon let Ball walk away, didnt get rid of him.

We already had in and under ball winners who had better skills than Luke Ball, we lacked leg speed.

Both b grade mids IMO, one very good at the contest but not quick or penetrating. The other quick and penetrating but defensively deficient IMO.

Yes but Lovett played at a club with no defensive thoughts whatsoever.
He is a good tackler, Lyon would have sorted his defensive side out, look at Dal, Milney and even Gram.

[rexy]

Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

Because Ball is a C grade mid and Lovett would have been an A grade mid...
Huge money is an overtstatement, even for you....

Lyon let Ball walk away, didnt get rid of him.

We already had in and under ball winners who had better skills than Luke Ball, we lacked leg speed.

Both b grade mids IMO, one very good at the contest but not quick or penetrating. The other quick and penetrating but defensively deficient IMO.

Yes but Lovett played at a club with no defensive thoughts whatsoever.
He is a good tackler, Lyon would have sorted his defensive side out, look at Dal, Milney and even Gram.

You may be right, we will never know. We couldnt even get him to behave like a human being so I am not sure how coachable he is?

Not blaming anyone or even saying that we did wrong, but I am shattered that we let a number 2 draft pick go for nothing and that we used a first rounder on a guy who didnt play a game, we will not feel the effects for 3-5 years probably, but their will be effects.

[saintsRrising]

or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

I don't follow you question.
He has.

Who, of these players, has RL made into better players?

Jones excluded obviously as he has been brought to the club under RL.
Gilbert was a boy. Has become a very good player.

1/ Why quote what you have and then ask a different set of questions? If you want aska different question why not just do so?

2/ When Lyon took over that was not our top 10.

3/ Who has Lyon and his coaching panel made into better players?

Well apart from Lenny I would say all. Some more so than others.

Take N.Riewoldt - He is a more complete player. Pre-Lyon did not apply that much forward pressure . He now does. Sure he was a superstar prior, but he is even better now.

Virtually all players under Lyon are better players because they work-harder over a game. Workrate is a much unregonised factor in successful teams. They are also better because toa man they are better team players.

Prior to Lyon the St Kilda players were quite poor in stopping an oppostion team that had a run on. Now they are well drilled in this aspect of the game. They are all much better at play when the oppostion have the ball, and when the ball in dispute.

He's made some play the St Kilda plan better..

1/ Not some. Virtually all.

2/ I don't follow. AFL is TEAM sport. Instrinsic to being a good player is being able to deliver the the team gameplan.

As the saying goes a champion team will beat a team of champions.
In AFL you cannot be a good player if you are not good at team play. If you improve a players ability to deliver team football you are improving him as a player.

There is lot more to developing football than ball-skills and today this is more tue than ever.

Which of the above were disappointments to people in 2006? Players that were on the long-term downward slide? ..

Why is your question at all relevant?

As a team all players now rate better.
As a top 10 the top 10 rate better.

If dropping NDS made him into a gun then a lot of other coaches have been very unlucky that this hasn't worked as well for them..

Who said dropping NDS made him into a gun?

He was already a very good player (ie gun) prior to being dropped. However IMO he is a better player post-dropping.

[Saints43]

The point you are blithely ignoring is that Lyon has made them in the main into better players.

...you think tha RL made the following into better players:

.Riewoldt - Elite....equal best fwd in the AFL
B.Goddard - Elite....Top ten in AFL IMO
L.Hayes - Elite.....for a long time
S.Fisher - A-Grade to Elite.......2nd best def in AFL
L.Montagna - A-Grade to Elite.....Damaging mid
N.Dal Santo - A-Grade to Elite....Damaging mid
S.Gilbert - A-Grade....one of the best defenders in AFL
C.Jones - A-Grade.....one of best taggers in AFL
J.Gram - A-Grade......Damaging mid
J.Koschitzke - B-Grade to A-Grade.....Structually Vital, in form hard to stop

Fair enough.

Who, of these players, has RL made into better players? He's made some play the St Kilda plan better.

How much better has he made Riewoldt than he would have been? BJ? Fisher? Hayes?

Kosi????

Allowance must be made for experince in the game and number of pre-seasons.

In "the main" it was the best list a rookie coach has taken over in the drafting era.

We are getting good results but we should be getting good results.

[SainterK]

I'd have Gardiner higher myself.

We can ponder why few have made it into the top 10 in recent times, we could also be thankful that none have fallen away.

[Saints43]

I'd have Gardiner higher myself.

We can ponder why few have made it into the top 10 in recent times, we could also be thankful that none have fallen away.

True on both counts.

If Gardinder could play most weeks and be available come finals time then he'd probably be in the top ten in terms of importance.

He was magnificent last week and, I thought, showed that we have one ruckman and developing ruckmen.

[Saintsfan]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

I'd expect and hope, that by season's end (his 4th year) he will have either recruited or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

There was a major gap in talent/draft choices/trading that backfired during (from memory) the middle-end of GT's years and maybe the first year of RL's.

Players like Ackland, McGough, Sweeney, Howard, Watts, Matthew Clarke among plenty of others were played and failed. We either used draft picks to get them, traded for them or they just were no good when played.

That left a gap in the playing roster that could be compared to the Brisbane Lions having quality oldies, nothing in the middle and young players.

We are like that/were like that to an extent although i believe not as bad have a much larger core group the squad is based around in comparison to the Lions have 5-6 old guns and not much else.

[saintsRrising]

How much better has he made Riewoldt than he would have been? BJ? Fisher? Hayes? .

I am not sure how you can quantify it exactly. How about games won and %???

However take Roo. Until Lyon arrived he did not apply himself to improving the defensive side of his game as much as he clearly has under Lyon..

Hayes as I have stated is probaly the only one who has not improved...though he was already exceptional.

Just because all 3 would be good under any coach does not mean that they are not better under Lyon. (apart from Hayes).

To me it is chalk and cheese.. The 2010 Saints would cream the 2006 Saints.

The 2006 buckled under presure...the 2010 Saints excude extreme pressure.

Allowance must be made for experince in the game and number of pre-seasons....

Why...??? In any period you will have experienced players. ie Back then you had Harvey, GTrain, Max etc.. We still have more a-graders.

In "the main" it was the best list a rookie coach has taken over in the drafting era.

.

Voss got a pretty good list too.
Ratten seems to be bungling what could have been a good list.

Lyon yes gained a pretty good list, but with some major flaws. He still had to improve it.

And it is not just improving the list as individuals..it is team game...it is improving the team.

We are getting good results but we should be getting good results.

Why should we? If it just a matter of a new coach walking in the door why is every team not outstanding?

What was there for example in the list that Lyon inherited that suggested that it would in 2009 deliver one of the best H&A seasons ever and in particularly in defensive play?

[maverick]

Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

Because Ball is a C grade mid and Lovett would have been an A grade mid...
Huge money is an overtstatement, even for you....

Lyon let Ball walk away, didnt get rid of him.

We already had in and under ball winners who had better skills than Luke Ball, we lacked leg speed.

Both b grade mids IMO, one very good at the contest but not quick or penetrating. The other quick and penetrating but defensively deficient IMO.

Yes but Lovett played at a club with no defensive thoughts whatsoever.
He is a good tackler, Lyon would have sorted his defensive side out, look at Dal, Milney and even Gram.

You may be right, we will never know. We couldnt even get him to behave like a human being so I am not sure how coachable he is?

Not blaming anyone or even saying that we did wrong, but I am shattered that we let a number 2 draft pick go for nothing and that we used a first rounder on a guy who didnt play a game, we will not feel the effects for 3-5 years probably, but their will be effects.

Agree, I am shattered too.
There will be affects I agree, but it won't be negative regarding Ball, you can see the effect Armo is already beginning to have IMO.
The draft pick may end up being a loss, time will tell...

[maverick]

The point you are blithely ignoring is that Lyon has made them in the main into better players.

...you think tha RL made the following into better players:

.Riewoldt - Elite....equal best fwd in the AFL
B.Goddard - Elite....Top ten in AFL IMO
L.Hayes - Elite.....for a long time
S.Fisher - A-Grade to Elite.......2nd best def in AFL
L.Montagna - A-Grade to Elite.....Damaging mid
N.Dal Santo - A-Grade to Elite....Damaging mid
S.Gilbert - A-Grade....one of the best defenders in AFL
C.Jones - A-Grade.....one of best taggers in AFL
J.Gram - A-Grade......Damaging mid
J.Koschitzke - B-Grade to A-Grade.....Structually Vital, in form hard to stop

Fair enough.

Who, of these players, has RL made into better players? He's made some play the St Kilda plan better.

How much better has he made Riewoldt than he would have been? BJ? Fisher? Hayes?

Kosi????

Allowance must be made for experince in the game and number of pre-seasons.

In "the main" it was the best list a rookie coach has taken over in the drafting era.

We are getting good results but we should be getting good results.

Roo better team player, doesn't kick chase anymore, plays much better defence nowdays
BJ - always going to be a gun, minimal impact IMO
Lenny - Saints footy is perfect for him, minimal direct impact, huge team impact
Fisher - huge impact
Montagna - huge impact
Dal - big defensive impact
Gilbert - massive impact, exceeded all expectations
Jones - massive impact
Gram - huge impact, turned him into an elite IMO, excellent
Kosi - has got him on the pitch, massive impact.
Blake - massive impact, turned him into a key defender

Obviously, SOS and others have been a part of this, but Lyon did bring them too!!!!

[saintsRrising]

Back to the OP.

I note StMart has gone for a Top 10.
That in itself to me says something.

Past StKilda teams were always referred to as having a Fab 4 or similar....

Opposition teams would just outlast (though luckilly we had Banger), or tag out our key players, and triumph.

Now there is true depth and unrelenting pressure.

The midfield rotations do not stop.
An opposition players does not have to be one opponent, he has to beat a team.

[Saints43]

Voss got a pretty good list too.
Ratten seems to be bungling what could have been a good list.

OMG. Are you comparing the list Voss took over with the one RL took over?

OMFG. Are you comparing the list Ratten took over with the one RL took over?

Lyon yes gained a pretty good list, but with some major flaws. He still had to improve it.

And it is not just improving the list as individuals..it is team game...it is improving the team.

Yep. Obviously.

We are getting good results but we should be getting good results.

Why should we? If it just a matter of a new coach walking in the door why is every team not outstanding?

So Hardwick should be successful? Jebus.... we're talking about having good players.

What was there for example in the list that Lyon inherited that suggested that it would in 2009 deliver one of the best H&A seasons ever and in particularly in defensive play?

As Brendon Goddard stated on 'Before the Game' when asked about the tactical gulf between the coaching received these days and before - something like: We pretty much train the same way - more emphasis on defence but footy has gone that way.

I don't really care that we had the best defence ever because it got beaten by the most attacking team I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure that we are changing the plan again this year to be more attacking for this reason.

Can you think of a coach who took over a better list in the last 20 years?

Infact, another poster informed me that RL was one of the best coaches in the league. There are five premiership coaches going about now, Where would you rate him in that list?

[maverick]

Can you think of a coach who took over a better list in the last 20 years?

Leigh Matthews, 1999....

[rexy]

Can you think of a coach who took over a better list in the last 20 years?

Leigh Matthews, 1999....

Correct

[saintsRrising]

There are five premiership coaches going about now, Where would you rate him in that list?

He is not in that list.

[saintsRrising]

I don't really care that we had the best defence ever because it got beaten by the most attacking team I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure that we are changing the plan again this year to be more attacking for this reason.

AFL is game of constant flux and improvement. Revolution and innovation.

The current Dons team is probably the most attacking team in the AFL. More attacking than the Cats.They are not travelling too well at present, but yes will roll a team every now and again.

We have already seen some tweaks this year...but from what I have seen the way we play when the opposition have the ball will remain the rock of our gamepan in 2010.

The way we play when we have the ball based on the first two games, and the NAB is also largely the same...with some tweaks (ie some Pagon's Paddock like tactics at times, and more focus on ensuring that there is another player besides Roo presenting a marking option) and more concentration on more rapid entry into the forward line. However if there is not a good option their the Saints still attack by moving the ball around to create an option.

Kicking goals from turnovers is like in 2009 still a focus.

Attack is also only what you do when you have the ball. There are still the phases of "Ball in dispute" and "opposition" has the ball.

[saintsRrising]

Can you think of a coach who took over a better list in the last 20 years?

Leigh Matthews, 1999....

Voss has taken over a pretty good list too.

Still has some Champions and Matthews spent a couple of years churning through large numbers of rookies and kids...and had snaffled some good young draft picks. So the rebuild had already begun.

Lyon took over team that had finished 8th and on the decline.

Thompson took over the Cat's who had finished 5th.

By the way I have not bothered to look at the full twenty years.

[rexy]

On the decline or decimated by injury?

[Saints43]

There are five premiership coaches going about now, Where would you rate him in that list?

He is not in that list.

Infact, another poster informed me that RL was one of the best coaches in the league. There are five premiership coaches going about now, Where would you rate him in that list?

Where would you rate RL in the ranks of current AFL coaches?

[saintsRrising]

Where would you rate RL in the ranks of current AFL coaches?

Right here and now. No 1. (Comparing coaches over the course of their careers is another matter).

AFL is a game of flux though. He needs to keep it up.

Clarkson lost control of his players post GF. Based on one game against the Cats he looks to be back in control and has re-engaged his players.

The season is long...and a good coach needs to endure. He .needs to have thought things through...and he needs to keep improving

[saintsRrising]

On the decline or decimated by injury?

I would not see that as either/or question.
Both were at work.

We had had a goldern era of recruiting/trading/drafting (arguably either our best ever or at least the best since the 60's).....followed by a dismal one.

Other teams were evolving their gameplans. The Saints gameplan wise had fallen the wayside after a period of domination. The Streak. was amazing, but at the end of the day it was a streak.....and there is a lesson for Lyon in that.

[PJ]

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

Didn't you read the post? I said Lyon's job was taking a brilliant list forward...Ball was never part of that list, unfortunately, he'd hit the wall through bad mangement and over rating. Lovett was exactly what I'd said about supporting this developing list - blind freddy could see that.

So what part of Lyon's job being to realise a great list do you not understand? Clearly you either don't understand football, which I doubt, or you're just wasting my time.

Even Dean Bailey will reap the rewards of having a club that has languished on the bottom for a few years - will he or can he take them to the top? Who knows but his abilities as a coach have nothing to do with recruiting.

[Mr Magic]

Why does it seem so difficult for posters to offer any sort of compliment (even begrudgingly) to Ross Lyon?

I find it quite staggering the lengths some will go to belittle any achievements made under his coaching, probably for fear that it might be considered as approving of his tenure.

What on earth did he do personally to these posters that would instill such a hatred for the job he has done and is still doing?

Surely these posters don't still have the sh1ts that GT was sacked by the previous Board and are taking it out on Lyon purely because he was appointed in his place?
Surely that's not the real reason behind this unwillingness to credit Lyon with his due?

Some of these posters are reasoned, thoughtful and productive posters on all sorts of threads.
But the minute a thread is started mentioning any praise for Lyon....