GT busted on Footy Classified

[markp]

Wasn't it a "fractured player"?... doesn't sound as emotive or damning as "broken" though, does it?

Why cant it be seen as a simple statement of fact, rather than having a swipe at someone, or passing the buck?

Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad.

[rodgerfox]

Wasn't it a "fractured player"?... doesn't sound as emotive or damning as "broken" though, does it?

Why cant it be seen as a simple statement of fact, rather than having a swipe at someone, or passing the buck?

Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad.

They weren't having a crack at Lyon from what I saw.

They were having a crack at GT, and strongly suggesting that Lyon was having a direct dig at GT.

He also did state that Kosi had been mismanaged. He was pretty strong in his words really.

However as GT said, he had nothing to do with the medical side of things and never had input into players' availability.

Then Wilson suggested that the 'fractured' comment from Lyon was more about his mental state than his physical state, and that in that sense it was a dig at GT.

[Milan Faletic]

Ross Lyon said via MMM that he inherited a "fractured" player. The implication was that not only was Kosi physically injured but also lacking in trust of the St Kilda footy club.

GT was clearly flustered when questioned by the panel about whether Kosi's confidence and trust was undermined under GT's coaching.

Totally unexpected to hear this and sheds a new light on Kosi. Never heard this before.

Busted, GT.

Are you going to start a GT thread after every show? Last week you started one and got the words wrong to suit your agenda. Give it a miss for your own sanity. Busted Milan Pathetic.

Thanks for psychological analysis of my sanity, and the cheap shot...mmm what rhymes with plugger??? Never thought of that but maybe I will start a thread about GT every week. Could be fun. I guess a thread with 30 posts is probably worth doing because there are people interested in it.

Are you going to mention it every week? You are an adult so use that adult ability to not respond if you're not interested, and maybe stop taking things so seriously.

There's no agenda. Read all my posts, even on this thread, and you will read that I am a fan of GT and RL. Or do you read the quotes that suit your agenda?

[barks4eva]

I think that helps to explain why he struggled so much while Butterss and Fraser were at war and why he has done so much better under Westaway's quiet but strong leadership.

Explains nothing!

The LIST was struggling before Lyon arrived!

Lyon inherited for want of a better word a fractured list, too many slow unfit AFL footballers.

He did say it would take at least two years to get things back on track.

Whether Butterss, Westaway or Monty Pythons Flying Circus were running the club is irrelevant, both expressed support for the coach,

what mattered in 2007 was that the list was slow and unfit after years of mismanagement and neglect!

Robert Harvey at the end of the 2007 season made the comment that Ross Lyon was the best coach he's ever had.

Where we are now is a result of the new things that Ross Lyon has introduced from 2007 on and remember he did say it would take at least two years to right many things, fitness and conditioning, teaching them a game plan, something new for many of them.

The 2007 result was directly attributable to five years of neglect from the previous coach/football department and not a case of Ross Lyon struggling as you so naively put it!

Nothing to do with Butterss or Westaway, you do come up with some inane claptrap!

You have NFI, as evidenced by your derogatory posts about Lyon in 2008 with you calling for him to be sacked almost every week up until mid year and replaced with of all people Bundy, who you referred to as a tactical genius, the same guy who can't even read out correct player code numbers in the national draft!

Seriously, as for what you refer to as weasel words,........ sigh,........

Lyon chooses his words carefully so as to not give away trade secrets, etc...etc...

weasel words,........ seriously get a clue

much more preferable than the loose lips that sunk ships in the few years that proceeded him!

[Buckets]

Wasn't it a "fractured player"?... doesn't sound as emotive or damning as "broken" though, does it?

Why cant it be seen as a simple statement of fact, rather than having a swipe at someone, or passing the buck?

Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad.

They weren't having a crack at Lyon from what I saw.

They were having a crack at GT, and strongly suggesting that Lyon was having a direct dig at GT.

He also did state that Kosi had been mismanaged. He was pretty strong in his words really.

However as GT said, he had nothing to do with the medical side of things and never had input into players' availability.

Then Wilson suggested that the 'fractured' comment from Lyon was more about his mental state than his physical state, and that in that sense it was a dig at GT.

Hold on so it was the medico's fault Kosi played that game down in Geelong years back???? You know the one that after that kept him out of the game for a bit cos if i remember correctly his back was stuffed? It was at this time that GT copped flack for putting him back on?
On the same hand GT did admit that there was confidence issues with Kosi. So the mental side of things was a fair point.

[Milan Faletic]

Wasn't it a "fractured player"?... doesn't sound as emotive or damning as "broken" though, does it?

Why cant it be seen as a simple statement of fact, rather than having a swipe at someone, or passing the buck?

Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad.

They weren't having a crack at Lyon from what I saw.

They were having a crack at GT, and strongly suggesting that Lyon was having a direct dig at GT.

He also did state that Kosi had been mismanaged. He was pretty strong in his words really.

However as GT said, he had nothing to do with the medical side of things and never had input into players' availability.

Then Wilson suggested that the 'fractured' comment from Lyon was more about his mental state than his physical state, and that in that sense it was a dig at GT.

That was the way I saw it too, Rodger.

[Buckets]

Ross Lyon said via MMM that he inherited a "fractured" player. The implication was that not only was Kosi physically injured but also lacking in trust of the St Kilda footy club.

GT was clearly flustered when questioned by the panel about whether Kosi's confidence and trust was undermined under GT's coaching.

Totally unexpected to hear this and sheds a new light on Kosi. Never heard this before.

Busted, GT.

Are you going to start a GT thread after every show? Last week you started one and got the words wrong to suit your agenda. Give it a miss for your own sanity. Busted Milan Pathetic.

Thanks for psychological analysis of my sanity, and the cheap shot...mmm what rhymes with plugger??? Never thought of that but maybe I will start a thread about GT every week. Could be fun.

Are you going to mention it every week? You are an adult so use that adult ability to not respond if you're not interested, and maybe stop taking things so seriously.

There's no agenda. Read all my posts, even on this thread, and you will read that I am a fan of GT and RL. Or do you read the quotes that suit your agenda?

But its P66 he needs to reply to nearly every thread! He has nothing better to do

[markp]

Wasn't it a "fractured player"?... doesn't sound as emotive or damning as "broken" though, does it?

Why cant it be seen as a simple statement of fact, rather than having a swipe at someone, or passing the buck?

Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad.

They weren't having a crack at Lyon from what I saw.

They were having a crack at GT, and strongly suggesting that Lyon was having a direct dig at GT.

He also did state that Kosi had been mismanaged. He was pretty strong in his words really.

However as GT said, he had nothing to do with the medical side of things and never had input into players' availability.

Then Wilson suggested that the 'fractured' comment from Lyon was more about his mental state than his physical state, and that in that sense it was a dig at GT.

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

[rodgerfox]

Hold on so it was the medico's fault Kosi played that game down in Geelong years back???? You know the one that after that kept him out of the game for a bit cos if i remember correctly his back was stuffed? It was at this time that GT copped flack for putting him back on?

Yes. That's what I'm saying. That's what I've believed to be the case at the club for years.
And I'd be seriously, seriously concerned if it wasn't still the case now.

GT always said that he simply asked the medicos who was available. If someone was available to play, he played them.

On the same hand GT did admit that there was confidence issues with Kosi. So the mental side of things was a fair point.

Although GT dismissed it, it may well be the case. Players losing confidence is not a new thing, or unique.
I'd suggest many players lost confidence under GT, and many lost confidence under Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse, and even already under.....wait for it.....Ross Lyon <gasp!>.


I'd probably think though, that all of these coaches have had more players increase their confidence than lose it.

Really though, in Kosi's case if his confidence didn't suffer after getting knocked out, then running into an umpire in the 2s, passing out on national TV etc. and being unfit due to missing so much footy - I'd be really surprised.

Although I agree with Lyon's comments about Kosi needing time to come good again after such a long period of setbacks - I also agree with GT's response which was along the lines of 'Lyon's had him for 3 years and 3 full pre-seasons now, so when will we see him play consistent footy?'.

Surely it doesn't take a good coach 3 years to fix up a 'fractured' player.

[rodgerfox]

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

Why?

Why not keep on topic?

It's a fair discussion. If it bores you, ignore it.

[markp]

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

Why?

Why not keep on topic?

It's a fair discussion. If it bores you, ignore it.

It's how a forum works... people make comments, and others respond.

[saintspremiers]

Page 2 only on a GT thread?

Now barks has arrived, RF is here, together with P66, all we need is St Fid and we have a 20 pager in the making.

Good work guys!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Just want to throw this out there:

I have no evidence for this, but I don't think Lyon's comment was really aimed at GT. I think he was trying to protect a player by throwing the wolves off the scent.

Nobody who has seen Kosi over the course of the journey can argue that Kosi isn't a guy witha truckload of talent. That talent hasn't been consistently brought to bear, and following his shocker in the NAB cup final, that was front and center. That was what Lyon was being directly questioned about, after Stevens had just gone on a tirade about how Kosi wasn't doing enough.

After a grand final appearance and incredible H&A result last year, Lyon's satisfied the critics that hiring him was a good move. Directing attention towards Thomas doesn't put him under pressure any more... but the media still loves it.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but in less than a week, we've gone from the knives being drawn for Kosi to wondering how on earth we actually define "fractured player".

[SainterK]

As I said earlier, it was only Caro that filled the blanks and tried to make it so dramatic.

BAM might be onto something, when was the interview, before or after the game? They only played a small grab, so it could of been in context to an interview about Kosi and his form.

Was Kosi (physically) fractured when Ross came to the club, yes IMO.

Was Ross blaming GT for his horror run, well you'd have to pretend to know what he was thinking when he said it.

[rodgerfox]

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

Why?

Why not keep on topic?

It's a fair discussion. If it bores you, ignore it.

It's how a forum works... people make comments, and others respond.

No, it's how a forum gets ruined.

Is posters keep on topic, then it remains a place for healthy debate and discussion.

Why not start a new thread if you want to discuss something other than this topic?

[rodgerfox]

As I said earlier, it was only Caro that filled the blanks and tried to make it so dramatic.

BAM might be onto something, when was the interview, before or after the game? They only played a small grab, so it could of been in context to an interview about Kosi and his form.

Was Kosi (physically) fractured when Ross came to the club, yes IMO.

Was Ross blaming GT for his horror run, well you'd have to pretend to know what he was thinking when he said it.

I agree.

Lyon was clearly deflecting and making excuses for Kosi's ordinary output over the the past couple of years.

All coaches would do the same for a player.

Even GT was surprised that the comments were construed to be a dig at him even though it was an area he had nothing to do with.

[SainterK]

As I said earlier, it was only Caro that filled the blanks and tried to make it so dramatic.

BAM might be onto something, when was the interview, before or after the game? They only played a small grab, so it could of been in context to an interview about Kosi and his form.

Was Kosi (physically) fractured when Ross came to the club, yes IMO.

Was Ross blaming GT for his horror run, well you'd have to pretend to know what he was thinking when he said it.

I agree.

Lyon was clearly deflecting and making excuses for Kosi's ordinary output over the the past couple of years.

All coaches would do the same for a player.

Even GT was surprised that the comments were construed to be a dig at him even though it was an area he had nothing to do with.

More for his form over the preseason comp IMO, but yes Ross was protecting him.

I'd need my toe's to count how many articles there were written about his preseason form, and I still scratch my head over why people read so much into practice games anyways.

[markp]

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

Why?

Why not keep on topic?

It's a fair discussion. If it bores you, ignore it.

It's how a forum works... people make comments, and others respond.

No, it's how a forum gets ruined.

Is posters keep on topic, then it remains a place for healthy debate and discussion.

Why not start a new thread if you want to discuss something other than this topic?

How is it 'off topic' to comment on the interpretation of Lyon's comments as a swipe at GT?

[rodgerfox]

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

Why?

Why not keep on topic?

It's a fair discussion. If it bores you, ignore it.

It's how a forum works... people make comments, and others respond.

No, it's how a forum gets ruined.

Is posters keep on topic, then it remains a place for healthy debate and discussion.

Why not start a new thread if you want to discuss something other than this topic?

How is it 'off topic' to comment on the interpretation of Lyon's comments as a swipe at GT?

You were attacking poster's freedom to express opinions on topic that the actual thread is dedicated to.

That's off topic, and inflammatory.

As have your 3 subsequent posts. As per usual.

[saintsRrising]

is it possible we're all reading too much into this... kosi had had a lot of injuries prior to ross getting to the club, his statement may have simply related to that and was in no way intended as a swipe at previous regime?

Exactly.

MB..fair dinkum..Lyon just answers a question honestly backing his player, and you wheel out a whole agenda.

FACT is the previous player fitness and conditioning management was well below standard. Kosi was clearly one of a sizeable number of players at the club that were mismanaged. That is the reality of the situation. So why skirt around it?

Lyon is no politician...but many it would seem would prefer political speak rather than proper answers.

[meher baba]

FACT is the previous player fitness and conditioning management was well below standard. Kosi was clearly one of a sizeable number of players at the club that were mismanaged. That is the reality of the situation. So why skirt around it?

Talk about people wheeling out agendas. Who says a "sizeable number of players at the club were mismanaged"? I have never even heard Butterss suggest that. The only people who keep dragging out this so-called FACT over and over again are you, B4E and a number of other agenda-driven posters on here.

I don't have any agenda at all. As I have said many times, I actually have a strong personal dislike of GT and (after an initial period of doubt, based entirely on performance) I am now a big fan of Lyon as a coach.

I don't like the way Lyon talks to the media, but - if he changed - I'd stop criticising him tomorrow. Is that an agenda? Maybe, but a pretty low level one compared to the tens of thousands of posts you guys have put up on here banging on and on about how terrible GT was, how he ruined our list, crippled all our players, etc., etc.

When GT was coach, we played the majority of our games on what was then the worst surface in the AFL (I think the ANZ stadium might have "suprassed" it now), the club spent less on the football department (including injury management) than just about any other club, and we also recruited some players who brought their chronic injury problems with them (the Clarke brothers, Hamill, Fergus Watts and possibly Ball).

The main reason you and your mates on here want to put the entire blame for this situation on GT is because he once made some critical comments about the value of fitness management and what he called "training services". Given his experiences with injury problems, why would you expect him to be glowing with praise about these departments of the club? They didn't seem to help him too much.

Really, you and B4E and all the rest of you with your so-called FACTS just bore me to tears. What on earth is it all about? GT has been gone from the club for 3 years and we're going really well.

I know I shouldn't participate in these sorts of threads, but - when I see people putting forward their personal prejudices as being the gospel truth I have this unfortunate urge to pull them up on it.

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this, I will never believe that he was personally responsible for all the injury problems we had in 2002-06: any more than I would blame Lyon for Dempster's or Jarryd Allen's or Tom Lynch's continuing battles with injury since they joined the club.

But I'll henceforth try to keep my views to myself: I think it's better that way.

[saintsRrising]

FACT is the previous player fitness and conditioning management was well below standard. Kosi was clearly one of a sizeable number of players at the club that were mismanaged. That is the reality of the situation. So why skirt around it?

Talk about people wheeling out agendas. Who says a "sizeable number of players at the club were mismanaged"? .

Were you asleep for over three years?

Was out in the open for all to see. Not sure how you could have missed it. Did you think the missing players were off on holiday?

Harvey had such faith in the Club at the time that he self-medicated at home off the kitchen table !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A former Saint's Club Doctor I spoke too was furious about this at the time for even though the media laughed it off the Dr indicated that Harvey could easily have done permanent damage to himself.

Same Dr was scathing about much else that was done at the club at that time, or rather not done.

Note Thinlines comment above. I posted similar after I spoke with the Dr pre-GT's departure and posted it at the time.

It is chalk and cheese what happens now to pre-Lyon. And pre-Lyon the cheese was on the nose.

[markp]

I was referring to subsequent comments in this thread... not Footy Classified.

Why?

Why not keep on topic?

It's a fair discussion. If it bores you, ignore it.

It's how a forum works... people make comments, and others respond.

No, it's how a forum gets ruined.

Is posters keep on topic, then it remains a place for healthy debate and discussion.

Why not start a new thread if you want to discuss something other than this topic?

How is it 'off topic' to comment on the interpretation of Lyon's comments as a swipe at GT?

You were attacking poster's freedom to express opinions on topic that the actual thread is dedicated to.

That's off topic, and inflammatory.

As have your 3 subsequent posts. As per usual.

I expressing my view that perhaps it is incorrect to assume RL was having a crack at GT, and defending our coach from yet another baseless attack.

My 3 subsequent posts were attempts at, and requests for clarification... if you can explain how they were inflammatory or attacking in any way I'd be amazed.

To save any further misunderstanding I suggest you go back and read what was actually written.

[saintsRrising]

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this, .

Remember Luke Penny and GT's crack at him for refusing to play on under GT despite a debilitating injury?

Luke went with the medical advice.

Remember the Cat's game when Kosi was played?

I prefer the current approach of if in doubt, don't play them.

[saintsRrising]

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this,.

http://www.chemotherapy.com.au/chemothe ... ured-knee/

Former Saint Penny Starts Chemo For Injured Knee

The Age

Wednesday February 22, 2006

LYALL JOHNSON

FORMER St Kilda full-back Luke Penny is having chemotherapy in an attempt to improve the debilitating knee problem that caused him to quit football last year.

Penny has acute rheumatoid arthritis, a chronic and very painful disease of the muscular-skeletal system characterised by inflammation of the joints and caused by the body's immune system destroying itself.

The 25-year-old is having three sessions of chemotherapy at the Cabrini Hospital in an attempt to arrest the progress of the disease.

Chemotherapy, commonly a treatment for cancer that knocks out the body's immune system and stops it destroying itself, is also an established treatment for acute rheumatoid arthritis when other treatments have proved unsatisfactory.

Penny, who played 35 games with the Western Bulldogs then 45 with St Kilda, also is believed to be angered by the way the club did not appear to believe his condition was serious enough to force him to retire.

At least one member of Penny's family is believed to be keen for the former player to consider defamation action against the club for comments made at the time of his retirement.

The family member claims to have sought advice from the AFL about what impact a non-disclosure statement would have on potential legal action.

When Penny announced his retirement in November last year, it was clear St Kilda and coach Grant Thomas were disappointed with his decision and voiced as much at a news conference at Moorabbin after Penny released a statement announcing his decision.

Thomas said at the time he was "very shocked" and "surprised" by Penny's decision to quit and added that Penny's reasons were personal and that it "wasn't a medical decision". "He just doesn't believe he's up to doing what he does best."