Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
Please don't get 'sucked in' by this serial baiter and allow another 'positive thread' about the Club and Coach to be ruined and eventually locked.saintsRrising wrote:No....rodgerfox wrote:So are we saying that in the end, luck is the overriding factor?
You do most things right and well...and then you get your crack.
If you don't then luck is completely irrelevant.
My understanding is, you actually need to play in grand final to lose one.rodgerfox wrote:So bad kicking on a day when in a season everything goes our way means we don't win a flag?jonesy wrote:Cos Milne,Schneider,McQualter and Dempster missed shots that would of sealed the game. Just one of them go through we winrodgerfox wrote:Just one question - if things are so great, why didn't we win the flag last year?
Yet GT's stubborness cost us 2!!
What if GT was the best coach in the world and also being seriously considered for sainthood by the catholic church such was his seflessness - if we didn't kick straight in the GF we still would have lost?
So you agree it's far fetched to suggest that a coach's stubbornness cost us 2 flags!!The Craw wrote:My understanding is, you actually need to play in grand final to lose one.rodgerfox wrote:So bad kicking on a day when in a season everything goes our way means we don't win a flag?jonesy wrote:Cos Milne,Schneider,McQualter and Dempster missed shots that would of sealed the game. Just one of them go through we winrodgerfox wrote:Just one question - if things are so great, why didn't we win the flag last year?
Yet GT's stubborness cost us 2!!
What if GT was the best coach in the world and also being seriously considered for sainthood by the catholic church such was his seflessness - if we didn't kick straight in the GF we still would have lost?
Great post.White Winmar wrote:In looking for positives in relation Andrew Lovett sacking, I think it's prudent to look back into our recent history as a club. It's only when we do so that we realise how far we've come. For those of us old enough to remember the late 70's and 80's, the scars still run deep. Seven wooden spoons in twelve years, no finals for eighteen years, the constant threat of extinction due to financial mismanagement and a VFL/AFL administration that was hellbent on "rationalising" (reducing) the number of Victorian teams. As if all that wasn't bad enough, St.Kilda was seen as the "party club", where the only good performances on a weekend were in the notorious "Saints" Disco.
The first signs of change came in 1987, when the Doc returned to coach a side that had "won" four consecutive wooden spoons and just 23 games in the previous six years! That's just one more than we won in 2009 alone! The Doc was said to be so horrified at the lack of skill in his group, he seriously contemplated jumping back on the plane to Lower Barrington, never to return! He was, however, a catalyst for change, and at least the tragic run of wooden spoons was broken. A kid called Lockett snagged a ton and a Brownlow and the likes of Loewe, Winmar, Burke and the following year, Harvey, gave cause for optimism. The club continued to struggle for a few years, but with Ken Sheldon taking the coaching reins, a new sense of professionalism was instilled in the place. A return to the finals in 1991-2 also helped renew belief that a premiership might have been possible.
Typically, just as optimism soared, the coach was sacked and the club once again flirted with extinction. The 1995 "SOS" campaign would surely be the last time the club could ask to be bailed out by its members and supporters. We did survive. Just. Incredibly, just two years later we'd won a night flag and made the 1997 Grand Final. Just as incredible was the fact that just three years later we were back on the bottom, having won just two games for the year. Fortunately, the knowledge stemming from the hard lessons of the previous 20 years was about to be put in place.
The "Blighty" fiasco once again pushed the club to the edge of the abyss. No one does survival better than the saints though, and from those ashes, the present Phoenix emerged. I know some will find the following a bit challenging, but credit has to be given to GT and Rod Butterss, for the way in which they engineered the long climb back. While I don't rate GT as a coach, and I think his stubbornness and arrogance probably cost us a flag or two, there is no denying that he engendered a sense of pride, self-belief and professionalism in the group. He wanted to build respect for the saints and he succeeded in that. His positive legacy was that he passed on to RL a core group of dedicated, passionate and professional footballers, who were also loyal to the saints. Meanwhile, the management of the club stabilised the finances (some might argue too much!). The decision to appoint RL in GT's place has also proved to be correct. (IMHO)
The club has never been more stable, both on and off the field, than in the past five years. Membership is set to be at record levels, there's money in the bank and we have a list that is capable of winning the flag for at least another 3-4 years. The AL fiasco is as severe a test as this club has faced for many years. What has impressed me most is the way the club has presented a strong and unified front. There have been many times in the past where the club motto "Strength through Loyalty" has meant little more than being three words on a shield. The club is, and has been, acting the motto for some time. We have seen a consistent message coming from all levels, from Board, to administration, to the playing group. The message is this,"Be a part of the team, act out its values, or get lost". In the not too distant past, the AL situation would have torn this club apart. There would have been media leaks, boardroom squabbles and no discernible plan to tackle the problem.
What I'm seeing is a united playing group, with strong leadership, that has sacrificed some potential short term gain, for long term unity and ultimate success. Sure, every saints fan and staff member will be hurting out of what has happened since AL came to the club. But strong and successful organisations make the tough calls based on their core values and principles, and with an eye to the medium and long term. The way the club has responded has ensured there will be minimum distraction for the playing group and that energy can now be focused on the most important task. Winning that bloody second flag! Yes, the saints have come a long way since the darkness of the 80's. They are truly a force to be reckoned with, both on and off the ground. Go Saints!
Despite all the positives
Yes RF I agree.rodgerfox wrote:So you agree it's far fetched to suggest that a coach's stubbornness cost us 2 flags!!The Craw wrote:My understanding is, you actually need to play in grand final to lose one.rodgerfox wrote:So bad kicking on a day when in a season everything goes our way means we don't win a flag?jonesy wrote:Cos Milne,Schneider,McQualter and Dempster missed shots that would of sealed the game. Just one of them go through we winrodgerfox wrote:Just one question - if things are so great, why didn't we win the flag last year?
Yet GT's stubborness cost us 2!!
What if GT was the best coach in the world and also being seriously considered for sainthood by the catholic church such was his seflessness - if we didn't kick straight in the GF we still would have lost?
I know! Unbelievable considering even now when we're perfect we can't win even one!
meher baba wrote:I agree thoroughly that the club has done the right thing by sacking Lovett. We will undoubtedly be taken to court, and (as the process for sacking him and, in particular, the timing are a bit bodgy) we might well have to pay him some more $$$$, but that doesn't really matter: we need to make a clean break.
So that's all really, really good.
I also agree that the club has generally been on an upward path in terms of on-field performance since the late 1980s, and the off-field side has also improved steadily under Plympton, Butterss and now Westaway.
But it isn't all sunshine and flowers right now.
The events of the summer of 2009-10 represent potentially the biggest setback experienced by the club in terms of its on-field and off-field performance since the dramatic events of 2006-07: which began with the sacking of the coach and culminated with a members revolt against the Board.
I'm confident that we can move on from it. But I don't think I really understand enough yet about how bad it is going to get. In particular, I don't know what sort of scarring on the collective psyche of the playing group has been produced by the combined impact of Ball walking out (for whatever reasons) and then the events of Xmas Eve and their continuing fallout . The imoact might be negligible, it might be significant: are any of you really in a position to know for sure?
Whatever the impacts, I'm sure they can be addressed and overcome. But I don't know enough yet to know how long that will take.
The club's reputation has also suffered.
As someone else suggested, how we start the season is going to be absolutely critical to our future prospects in the medium term. If the season doesn't start well, if we lose games and lose key players to injury, if the media starts to get all over us like a rash, if Ball shines at the Pies, then we will come under increasing pressure.
So it's imperative that we put some our early opponents away. I even think it is more important than it would otherwise be for us to go well (and hopefully win) against the Pies on Friday.
Interesting times. I hope all will be well, but I'm not 100% confident yet.
White Winmar wrote:In looking for positives in relation Andrew Lovett sacking, I think it's prudent to look back into our recent history as a club. It's only when we do so that we realise how far we've come. For those of us old enough to remember the late 70's and 80's, the scars still run deep. Seven wooden spoons in twelve years, no finals for eighteen years, the constant threat of extinction due to financial mismanagement and a VFL/AFL administration that was hellbent on "rationalising" (reducing) the number of Victorian teams. As if all that wasn't bad enough, St.Kilda was seen as the "party club", where the only good performances on a weekend were in the notorious "Saints" Disco.
The first signs of change came in 1987, when the Doc returned to coach a side that had "won" four consecutive wooden spoons and just 23 games in the previous six years! That's just one more than we won in 2009 alone! The Doc was said to be so horrified at the lack of skill in his group, he seriously contemplated jumping back on the plane to Lower Barrington, never to return! He was, however, a catalyst for change, and at least the tragic run of wooden spoons was broken. A kid called Lockett snagged a ton and a Brownlow and the likes of Loewe, Winmar, Burke and the following year, Harvey, gave cause for optimism. The club continued to struggle for a few years, but with Ken Sheldon taking the coaching reins, a new sense of professionalism was instilled in the place. A return to the finals in 1991-2 also helped renew belief that a premiership might have been possible.
Typically, just as optimism soared, the coach was sacked and the club once again flirted with extinction. The 1995 "SOS" campaign would surely be the last time the club could ask to be bailed out by its members and supporters. We did survive. Just. Incredibly, just two years later we'd won a night flag and made the 1997 Grand Final. Just as incredible was the fact that just three years later we were back on the bottom, having won just two games for the year. Fortunately, the knowledge stemming from the hard lessons of the previous 20 years was about to be put in place.
The "Blighty" fiasco once again pushed the club to the edge of the abyss. No one does survival better than the saints though, and from those ashes, the present Phoenix emerged. I know some will find the following a bit challenging, but credit has to be given to GT and Rod Butterss, for the way in which they engineered the long climb back. While I don't rate GT as a coach, and I think his stubbornness and arrogance probably cost us a flag or two, there is no denying that he engendered a sense of pride, self-belief and professionalism in the group. He wanted to build respect for the saints and he succeeded in that. His positive legacy was that he passed on to RL a core group of dedicated, passionate and professional footballers, who were also loyal to the saints. Meanwhile, the management of the club stabilised the finances (some might argue too much!). The decision to appoint RL in GT's place has also proved to be correct. (IMHO)
The club has never been more stable, both on and off the field, than in the past five years. Membership is set to be at record levels, there's money in the bank and we have a list that is capable of winning the flag for at least another 3-4 years. The AL fiasco is as severe a test as this club has faced for many years. What has impressed me most is the way the club has presented a strong and unified front. There have been many times in the past where the club motto "Strength through Loyalty" has meant little more than being three words on a shield. The club is, and has been, acting the motto for some time. We have seen a consistent message coming from all levels, from Board, to administration, to the playing group. The message is this,"Be a part of the team, act out its values, or get lost". In the not too distant past, the AL situation would have torn this club apart. There would have been media leaks, boardroom squabbles and no discernible plan to tackle the problem.
What I'm seeing is a united playing group, with strong leadership, that has sacrificed some potential short term gain, for long term unity and ultimate success. Sure, every saints fan and staff member will be hurting out of what has happened since AL came to the club. But strong and successful organisations make the tough calls based on their core values and principles, and with an eye to the medium and long term. The way the club has responded has ensured there will be minimum distraction for the playing group and that energy can now be focused on the most important task. Winning that bloody second flag! Yes, the saints have come a long way since the darkness of the 80's. They are truly a force to be reckoned with, both on and off the ground. Go Saints!
Despite all the positives
That's right. It will be a fabulous forum when every thread has titles like "How fantastic is the club" and "How amazing is Ross Lyon" and "How could we possibly be in better hands" and "How much do we all hate the exiled enemy of the people's revolution and agent of foreign powers Grant Thomas" and there are no dissenting voices on any thread.saint66au wrote:FANTASTIC post white winmar...Post of the year so far..
I wish people who defend rodger's right to an opinion would wake up to the fact that he doesnt have an opinion...he has a perverted desire to post a bunch of words designed to bait and provoke other posters...thats not an opinion.
If anyone thinks im out of line saying this as a mod...I'll cop being the first mod to get a warning lol..thats how much Im over this guy. Feel free to PM another mod if you are uncomfortable with my stance.
People like Rodgerfox are everything thats bad about Fan Forums..professional baiters who really dont care about the forum they belong to..just the attention they crave for their sad sad selves.
HOW BLOODY DARE YOU HIJACK THIS GREAT THREAD WITH YOUR SELF-OBSESSED DRIBBLE!!!!!!
Sorry White Winmar..but someone had to say it.....
Rodgerfox is an intruder on this otherwise great forum and is the most annoying and destructive poster we've ever had
There you go Rodg..you got the rant youve prolly been praying for since you joined here..you got under a mods skin. Nice work.
I will cop any warning I recieve for this post on the chin...cos God I feel better
Sigh...look..with due respect you have missed the pont a little. I'm all for alternative points of view, you are dead right..it would be very dull being a love-in all the time...meher baba wrote:That's right. It will be a fabulous forum when every thread has titles like "How fantastic is the club" and "How amazing is Ross Lyon" and "How could we possibly be in better hands" and "How much do we all hate the exiled enemy of the people's revolution and agent of foreign powers Grant Thomas" and there are no dissenting voices on any thread.saint66au wrote:FANTASTIC post white winmar...Post of the year so far..
I wish people who defend rodger's right to an opinion would wake up to the fact that he doesnt have an opinion...he has a perverted desire to post a bunch of words designed to bait and provoke other posters...thats not an opinion.
If anyone thinks im out of line saying this as a mod...I'll cop being the first mod to get a warning lol..thats how much Im over this guy. Feel free to PM another mod if you are uncomfortable with my stance.
People like Rodgerfox are everything thats bad about Fan Forums..professional baiters who really dont care about the forum they belong to..just the attention they crave for their sad sad selves.
HOW BLOODY DARE YOU HIJACK THIS GREAT THREAD WITH YOUR SELF-OBSESSED DRIBBLE!!!!!!
Sorry White Winmar..but someone had to say it.....
Rodgerfox is an intruder on this otherwise great forum and is the most annoying and destructive poster we've ever had
There you go Rodg..you got the rant youve prolly been praying for since you joined here..you got under a mods skin. Nice work.
I will cop any warning I recieve for this post on the chin...cos God I feel better
A bit like North Korea really................
I reckon he is a bit of fun. If you dont like his post ignore him and he will go away. If you want to have a bit of arguement then try and challenge him. Last thing we want is a great post like WW and we all just say post of the year. A little boring for me anyway.iwantmeseats wrote:WELL SAID saint66au. WELL BLOODY said. The bloke IS a cancer round here, deadset.
Oh for goodness sakes, why can't there be a positive, uplifting thread about our club on this saints forum?? What is wrong with that? Why must every positive thread be hijacked?? Surely you can see what this tosser does - maybe some of us are getting sick of constant negativity and insults etc on here. Come on MB you are compulsory reading on here - but you do not need to jump on here and defend a blatant thread hijacker!!meher baba wrote:That's right. It will be a fabulous forum when every thread has titles like "How fantastic is the club" and "How amazing is Ross Lyon" and "How could we possibly be in better hands" and "How much do we all hate the exiled enemy of the people's revolution and agent of foreign powers Grant Thomas" and there are no dissenting voices on any thread.saint66au wrote:FANTASTIC post white winmar...Post of the year so far..
I wish people who defend rodger's right to an opinion would wake up to the fact that he doesnt have an opinion...he has a perverted desire to post a bunch of words designed to bait and provoke other posters...thats not an opinion.
If anyone thinks im out of line saying this as a mod...I'll cop being the first mod to get a warning lol..thats how much Im over this guy. Feel free to PM another mod if you are uncomfortable with my stance.
People like Rodgerfox are everything thats bad about Fan Forums..professional baiters who really dont care about the forum they belong to..just the attention they crave for their sad sad selves.
HOW BLOODY DARE YOU HIJACK THIS GREAT THREAD WITH YOUR SELF-OBSESSED DRIBBLE!!!!!!
Sorry White Winmar..but someone had to say it.....
Rodgerfox is an intruder on this otherwise great forum and is the most annoying and destructive poster we've ever had
There you go Rodg..you got the rant youve prolly been praying for since you joined here..you got under a mods skin. Nice work.
I will cop any warning I recieve for this post on the chin...cos God I feel better
A bit like North Korea really................
Your point being that RF isnt a bit of fun?markp wrote:At the same time?...plugger66 wrote:Not really. I like standing on Ants and de knackering sheep more.markp wrote:I reckon you reckon tearing the wings off flies is a bit of fun too.plugger66 wrote:I reckon he is a bit of fun.
My point stands!
Yes he's annoying. Yes he likes to draw attention to himself. But I don't think he typically breaks the rules (I can't see that he has even come close in this thread). He just keeps questioning the accepted wisdom about Lyon, the club, etc.: often in a rather stupid way that I can't support, but sometimes he is on the money. It is good for forums to harbour voices of dissent.saint66au wrote:Sigh...look..with due respect you have missed the pont a little. I'm all for alternative points of view, you are dead right..it would be very dull being a love-in all the time...meher baba wrote:That's right. It will be a fabulous forum when every thread has titles like "How fantastic is the club" and "How amazing is Ross Lyon" and "How could we possibly be in better hands" and "How much do we all hate the exiled enemy of the people's revolution and agent of foreign powers Grant Thomas" and there are no dissenting voices on any thread.saint66au wrote:FANTASTIC post white winmar...Post of the year so far..
I wish people who defend rodger's right to an opinion would wake up to the fact that he doesnt have an opinion...he has a perverted desire to post a bunch of words designed to bait and provoke other posters...thats not an opinion.
If anyone thinks im out of line saying this as a mod...I'll cop being the first mod to get a warning lol..thats how much Im over this guy. Feel free to PM another mod if you are uncomfortable with my stance.
People like Rodgerfox are everything thats bad about Fan Forums..professional baiters who really dont care about the forum they belong to..just the attention they crave for their sad sad selves.
HOW BLOODY DARE YOU HIJACK THIS GREAT THREAD WITH YOUR SELF-OBSESSED DRIBBLE!!!!!!
Sorry White Winmar..but someone had to say it.....
Rodgerfox is an intruder on this otherwise great forum and is the most annoying and destructive poster we've ever had
There you go Rodg..you got the rant youve prolly been praying for since you joined here..you got under a mods skin. Nice work.
I will cop any warning I recieve for this post on the chin...cos God I feel better
A bit like North Korea really................
but...
Rodger is not actually providing an alternative point of view..he's saying it to create diversion and get people talking about him (yes including me atm). How people cannot see this is beyond me.
