more runners is a danger.....because mids used as fwds will be sucked up the ground to find the pill.....and leave Roo to deal with his opponent and theirs.......
How often have we seen Roo battling two/three whilst there was NO structure in the fwd line......we need our fwds to be 1) used and 2) keep their opponent accountable....
Why Charlie Gardiner is important.....
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WayneJudson42
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Interesting comment about "being used". One thing I noticed on the weekend is that we had CJ loose a few times, yet players hesitated and waited for another option to appear, and avoided CJ.Red wrote:He only becomes important if he is used. Most defences cheat against us.
Players play off their man to help the guy playing on Roo. So if we always
try to hit up Roo then they double/ triple team him, the ball comes to ground
and they have the numbers. You actually need to go through that option to
keep the opposition honest. Quite frankly we don't do that often enough.
I've being to games where Gardiner or Eddy make a lot of leads and the
ball ends up going to a contest.
I wonder if it's almost a "look" for option A, and of you can't, then try option B?
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bigcarl
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i know exactly where you're coming from as i've been using the same sort of line for some time.BigMart wrote:more runners is a danger.....because mids used as fwds will be sucked up the ground to find the pill.....and leave Roo to deal with his opponent and theirs.......
How often have we seen Roo battling two/three whilst there was NO structure in the fwd line......we need our fwds to be 1) used and 2) keep their opponent accountable....
for me, ideally charlie would keep his spot and ball and x come in, but not at the expense of raph or cj.
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fugazi
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Good discussion....I can't understand why he doesn't get more of the ball...he is very fit and athletic, with great hands. In a couple of pre-season games he looked great.
I think Mart is right about structure though, the endless mtpl opponents on Roo seems to abate when Kosi and CG are in the fwd line....3 good marking players and Schneider and Milne is a headache for any defence....Roo 1 out beats nearly anyone in the league.
...how does Buddy get to be one out so frequently?
By having Roughhead and Williams up there to contenst also. I reckon Roo could kick 100 with the right fwd structure.
I think Mart is right about structure though, the endless mtpl opponents on Roo seems to abate when Kosi and CG are in the fwd line....3 good marking players and Schneider and Milne is a headache for any defence....Roo 1 out beats nearly anyone in the league.
...how does Buddy get to be one out so frequently?
By having Roughhead and Williams up there to contenst also. I reckon Roo could kick 100 with the right fwd structure.
Nee!
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bigcarl
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they give him plenty of space, but also have the other marking options.fugazi wrote:how does Buddy get to be one out so frequently?
they also take risks and move it quickly and with urgency.
having said that, we might be able to put a choker hold on them if sunday's perfectly-executed shut down performance is the type of form we take into the finals.
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starsign
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Charlie plays an important role for us as that 3rd forward marking option, particularly when leading up.....or more particularly Charlie when he is in the side is fullfilling an important role for us, in that our forward line seems to function much better as a whole when he's there
BUT... and here's the sting
We need someone to play that role , in that we perform better when someone is....Fortunately for Charlie we don't seem to have anyone else who can do it, as he has his limitations
People comment on his decision making but Charlies biggest problem IMHO is that he is too slow to think When he does lead up and get the ball often then he'll just prop for what seems an eternity and we lose thet vital attacking momentum, or when he gets a contested possession he doesn't decide quickly enough for AFL footy
I don't know the answer and would like to have seen Gwilt / Raph tried in the role 5/6 weeks ago , but thats fine in hindsight
Now I think its a case of damned if we do , damned if we dont play him , and the overiding factor being the forward line seems to function much better as a unit when he's present (Roo especially)
I think we will see him continue there at least for this week
BUT... and here's the sting
We need someone to play that role , in that we perform better when someone is....Fortunately for Charlie we don't seem to have anyone else who can do it, as he has his limitations
People comment on his decision making but Charlies biggest problem IMHO is that he is too slow to think When he does lead up and get the ball often then he'll just prop for what seems an eternity and we lose thet vital attacking momentum, or when he gets a contested possession he doesn't decide quickly enough for AFL footy
I don't know the answer and would like to have seen Gwilt / Raph tried in the role 5/6 weeks ago , but thats fine in hindsight
Now I think its a case of damned if we do , damned if we dont play him , and the overiding factor being the forward line seems to function much better as a unit when he's present (Roo especially)
I think we will see him continue there at least for this week
Good topic Mart and I totally agree. Charlie isn't a world beater but he is the best option we have to play a role that is critical in today's footy.
The comment you made which sticks in my mind the most is that Charlie knows how to play as a leading forward. That is the most important aspect of it. That is why he is a better option than either Gwilt or Raph.
He knows when and where to lead, knows how to work the space to either present or to get his man away from our key forwards preventing the 3rd man up. We need to use him more though and play through his man. Especially early in games.
The comment you made which sticks in my mind the most is that Charlie knows how to play as a leading forward. That is the most important aspect of it. That is why he is a better option than either Gwilt or Raph.
He knows when and where to lead, knows how to work the space to either present or to get his man away from our key forwards preventing the 3rd man up. We need to use him more though and play through his man. Especially early in games.
I agree with the importance of the role Charlie is playing for our forward structure. I am a bit unsure why Ferg hasn't been given much of a crack playing that role. We have seen Charlie, how many, 6-8 times this season playing the role? He has been of value doing it probably 80% of the time, so i have no problems with him. I quite like him actually. But Ferg played very well up forward against Melb then hasn;t really had a go since? I would have thought he could play this role and perhaps kick a few more than Charlie?
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WayneJudson42
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Bingo... a 3rd fwd is just that... 3rd in line, and takes another defender off Roo or Kosi.BigMart wrote:He doesn't win a lot of footy because N.Riewoldt is in the same fwd line....as long as he plays his role and the mids use him when he is the best option......I will be happy.... he needs to be team disciplined and work hard to make his opponent accoutable
He may be limited, but who else do we have who is fit, experienced and match hardened?
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meher baba
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Interesting thread, as is usually the case with those started by Big Mart.
I appreciate what people are saying about the value of Charlie as a decoy third forward. I guess I'd really feel more in favour of him if he did just a tad more in a normal game than he currently does: eg, kick more than one goal a game, or win a few turnovers, or something like that.
While I agree that he is a better positional player than, say, Gwilt, Gwilt just seems so much more likely to win a one-on-one contest inside the forward 50. And Charlie probably isn't as accurate a kick as Gwilt either.
Is the real problem perhaps that Kosi doesn't have a particularly good sense of where to position himself? So we can't afford to go with Riewoldt, Kosi and Gwilt as our main marking forwards because 2 out of 3 not really knowing where to stand is too much of a liability?
Charlie is really a very frustrating player: he's a bit like a picture that is only slightly out of focus. He is a good reader of the game, and does a lot of things right on the football field, but he doesn't do very many game-breaking things during a match like kick goals, win turnovers, set up goals, etc. He's a bit like a cricket all-rounder who is neither a good enough batsman or bowler to make the team in his own right.
You can see why Geelong perservered with him for quite a while. And we probably will too. But...............................
I appreciate what people are saying about the value of Charlie as a decoy third forward. I guess I'd really feel more in favour of him if he did just a tad more in a normal game than he currently does: eg, kick more than one goal a game, or win a few turnovers, or something like that.
While I agree that he is a better positional player than, say, Gwilt, Gwilt just seems so much more likely to win a one-on-one contest inside the forward 50. And Charlie probably isn't as accurate a kick as Gwilt either.
Is the real problem perhaps that Kosi doesn't have a particularly good sense of where to position himself? So we can't afford to go with Riewoldt, Kosi and Gwilt as our main marking forwards because 2 out of 3 not really knowing where to stand is too much of a liability?
Charlie is really a very frustrating player: he's a bit like a picture that is only slightly out of focus. He is a good reader of the game, and does a lot of things right on the football field, but he doesn't do very many game-breaking things during a match like kick goals, win turnovers, set up goals, etc. He's a bit like a cricket all-rounder who is neither a good enough batsman or bowler to make the team in his own right.
You can see why Geelong perservered with him for quite a while. And we probably will too. But...............................
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WayneJudson42
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Maybe now that he has a "real" coach... he may finally realize his true potentialmeher baba wrote:Interesting thread, as is usually the case with those started by Big Mart.
I appreciate what people are saying about the value of Charlie as a decoy third forward. I guess I'd really feel more in favour of him if he did just a tad more in a normal game than he currently does: eg, kick more than one goal a game, or win a few turnovers, or something like that.
While I agree that he is a better positional player than, say, Gwilt, Gwilt just seems so much more likely to win a one-on-one contest inside the forward 50. And Charlie probably isn't as accurate a kick as Gwilt either.
Is the real problem perhaps that Kosi doesn't have a particularly good sense of where to position himself? So we can't afford to go with Riewoldt, Kosi and Gwilt as our main marking forwards because 2 out of 3 not really knowing where to stand is too much of a liability?
Charlie is really a very frustrating player: he's a bit like a picture that is only slightly out of focus. He is a good reader of the game, and does a lot of things right on the football field, but he doesn't do very many game-breaking things during a match like kick goals, win turnovers, set up goals, etc. He's a bit like a cricket all-rounder who is neither a good enough batsman or bowler to make the team in his own right.
You can see why Geelong perservered with him for quite a while. And we probably will too. But...............................
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
Cant see Charlie keeping his spot personally, I think he will go out for X and we will ask Gwilt to play closer to goals and lead and X will play the role a bit up the ground, X is very good at getting into the hole between Roo and the contest and either drawing the second defender away from Roo or getting it himself and I think the guys have faith in his goal kicking. I think birss will go out for ball when he is available. The question is can mini get back in?
Maybe this year?