Critical decision for club. List vs. Coach: What do u think?

[Teflon]

Mick Malthouse sides don't do that week in week out.......and niether does B.Fevola......

Collingwood were beaten today because their intensity was down....today.......yes....and that is a trademark of theirs, without it they are very ordinary....look at their line up.

We lost because our intensity has been down for X amount of weeks....why?......

We won 8 of our last 11 last year....with a similar (if not worse) list of players.....has the coach lost the players??....is it his job to manage the 'cattle'???....atm they look as dissinterested as a Melbourne side...luckily with a bit more talent.

Something stinks at Moorabbin.....

Fish normally start rotting at the head!

We won 8 of 11 last year - I used to trumpet that till I realised we beat by and large bottom 8 sides. That stats a myth. Measure us against top 4 and this so called "super list"is off the mark.

I wouldnt dispute that we are down on confidence and motivation is a key job for Lyon. Its also IMO a core element for individual players. So is effort and as Luke Ball indicated in a GREAT article this week - to much is being done by too few. Ball put it as a lack of effort - who ultimately provides that effort on field?

Its unacceptable that players decide to play for a qtr and run all over the opposition only to shut down in the next. Lyons got work to do to get to the bottom of this but he cant play the game for them when they cross the line. He also cant kick goals from 30 metres out direct in front, fail to make the distance or kick out of bounce on the full. HE also cant pass and actually HIT a team mate as opposed to hand the ball over in poor skill errors constantly to the opposition - see Milne as an example last 2 weeks.

Your still overrating the list IMO.

[Teflon]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

Irrelevant - who said it wasnt?

In fact many are saying its a MAJOR reason we find ourselves where we are right now?

If your suggesting in 1 true full draft (Lyons first involvement in a draft with us was at a time where much of the work in who we were targeting etc had been done) is enough for him to shape this list I dont agree.

[Boppa]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

Definitely the coaches responsibilty.
Since Grant Thomas inherited a host of players due to the appointment of Blight and a plethora of early draft picks, he went back against his word of creating a team capable of success for 10+ yrs.
Terrible list management is
Trading picks 6 and 31 for Barry (I could never play) Brooks
Making a 3 way trade with Freo and Rich, where Stk (Fiora) easily got the worst of the deal
Picking up hacks from other clubs like Ackland, McGough etc
Trading for a guy like Guerra, playing him 31 games in 2 years (therefore better than guys in the reserves) then chopping him off the list for NO return.
Trading our first round draft pick for Fergus Watts (1 game)
On top of those debacles we recruited guys like
Gwilt, Rix, Raymond, Sweeney who have added nothing. That i'm afraid are some of the key reasons why we are in the predicament that we are right now.
We are a D at best

Spot on

[Teflon]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

Definitely the coaches responsibilty.
Since Grant Thomas inherited a host of players due to the appointment of Blight and a plethora of early draft picks, he went back against his word of creating a team capable of success for 10+ yrs.
Terrible list management is
Trading picks 6 and 31 for Barry (I could never play) Brooks
Making a 3 way trade with Freo and Rich, where Stk (Fiora) easily got the worst of the deal
Picking up hacks from other clubs like Ackland, McGough etc
Trading for a guy like Guerra, playing him 31 games in 2 years (therefore better than guys in the reserves) then chopping him off the list for NO return.
Trading our first round draft pick for Fergus Watts (1 game)
On top of those debacles we recruited guys like
Gwilt, Rix, Raymond, Sweeney who have added nothing. That i'm afraid are some of the key reasons why we are in the predicament that we are right now.
We are a D at best

Superbly put.

Why many refuse to acknowledge these FACTS has got me stuffed.

Lyons got plenty to do - if hes guilty of 1 thing its perhaps (like evryone) coming into the club overrating this list himself. I hope hes past that now and grabs the shears......

Time for some knackering also.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Put my money on B.

Too many match winners aren't. Too much of what previously made us work doesn't any more. While we haven't had a lot of fresh exciting talent come through, what we have seen a pattern of is new kids coming into the team, looking interesting, then joining the cast of mediocre supporting players - which could be recruitment, but since the players who were already good are in that group too, makes it an unlikely co-incedence IMO.

Gilbert, McQualter, Raph, I used to be excited about these guys... and I'm on Mini right now because he just had a good game, but in the last 18 months, the belief they'll be anything special has left. Along with the belief that Kosi will be anything special. Along with the belief that Gram, or Leigh Fisher, or Matt Maguire will ever amount to much...

That's a lot of highly rated players, some of whom had justified high ratings at AFL level over a wide span of drafts, who have been unable to help us maintain our place, let alone improve it.

If a couple had come forward to compliment the ones going backward then I'd tend towards the C answer... with just about everyone looking worse, I look for the single common element, and I see an inexperienced coach out of his depth, treading water and unable to get anywhere near the kind of performance required out of enough players who have demonstrated they're capable of giving it, let alone you and inexperienced ones who would counter list regression.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Why do people think list management is not part of a coach's responsibilties?

It is one of his most important roles. It is his job to ensure the list does not fall back rapidly.

Definitely the coaches responsibilty.
Since Grant Thomas inherited a host of players due to the appointment of Blight and a plethora of early draft picks, he went back against his word of creating a team capable of success for 10+ yrs.
Terrible list management is
Trading picks 6 and 31 for Barry (I could never play) Brooks
Making a 3 way trade with Freo and Rich, where Stk (Fiora) easily got the worst of the deal
Picking up hacks from other clubs like Ackland, McGough etc
Trading for a guy like Guerra, playing him 31 games in 2 years (therefore better than guys in the reserves) then chopping him off the list for NO return.
Trading our first round draft pick for Fergus Watts (1 game)
On top of those debacles we recruited guys like
Gwilt, Rix, Raymond, Sweeney who have added nothing. That i'm afraid are some of the key reasons why we are in the predicament that we are right now.
We are a D at best

Superbly put.

Why many refuse to acknowledge these FACTS has got me stuffed.

Lyons got plenty to do - if hes guilty of 1 thing its perhaps (like evryone) coming into the club overrating this list himself. I hope hes past that now and grabs the shears......

Time for some knackering also.

Based on the last 18 months, are people really comfortable with the idea of Lyon being the guy to drive a list rebuild?

It wasn't what he was brought in for, and what he was brought in for he seems unable to deliver on.

On paper Lyon's list management has often looked alright until it hits the field, at which point it resembles the rest of his on field results. Avg. to Good players unable to perform well enough in touch games. Schneider, King, Birss... is anyone thrilled with the performance of any? Schneider looks like a lot of our guys.

Lyon seems an able administrator, but blaming the games of the entire team on poor recruiting only explains so much.

[congorozides]

Let’s face it, currently our coaching department is failing. They have till the end of the yr to show some real positives, but things are not looking good.

Assuming we miss the finals, the board will have to undertake a detailed assessment of our footy department and make some very important decisions. To make the right decision it needs to build a good understanding of the causes to our downturn, so that it has a good chance to get it right. If we don't properly understand the causes and make the wrong decisions, we will spiral further down into some dark times.

It's pretty clear that our failing lies in either the deterioration of the playing list (relative to the competition), OR the failure of the coaching department to harness our assets, OR a bit of both. Where the board comes down on this will mean potentially very different actions.

Lets clearly layout the potential causes:

A: 100% Coaching Failure: We have a top 4 list, but the coaching is bad. Too negative, confusing the players, loss of confidence and the coach has lost the players, etc.

B: 70% Coaching Failure & 30% List Deterioration: Our problem is mainly the coach & his methods, but the quality of our list has also deteriorated over the last 3 years due to poor recruiting & player development & management.

C: 50% Coach Failure & 50% List Deterioration: As above, but an even contribution to our poor performance from both the coaching and list weaknesses.

D: 30% Coach Failures & 70% List Deterioration: The biggest contributing factor is our list, which has deteriorated badly, relative to the competition. The coaching has been ok, but could be better.

E: 100% List Deterioration: The coaching is fine, RL & his team are on the right track, its just that our list has deteriorated significantly over the years, relative to the competition, we lack skill, pace, and depth to make the finals, no matter who the coach.

Decsions the Board should take based on the above:

A: The coaching team should be sacked. Don't wait another year. Accept we made an error in choosing RL, and find a more suitable replacement.

B: If B, then look closely at sacking the coahing panel, if a suitable replacement can be found. At very least a major overhaul will need to occur, and some of the assistance will have to go and new game plan will have to be looked at.

C: Keep the coach, but implement a major overhual to the coaching team. E.g. new game plan, new assistance, etc. Work harder to recuit the right playes, look at trading

D: Make some changes to the coaching panel & game plan, work hard on recuiting & player development.

E: Work hard on recuiting & player development, trade agressively, build on youth policy.

So what do you all currently think? Where do the causes of our problems lie, is it A, B, C, D, or E?
.

you are good. if i was a boss id hire you for sure. great presentation and analysis. very professional. saints should hire you.

Hard to choose between B & C IMO. Will be a very tough and hard call to make.

[vacuous space]

100% coaching. This team has gone backwards since last year. We weren't getting smashed in the contested ball last year. We're now to the point where we're getting beaten in every area of the ground in every phase of the game. Our defence is worse with extra numbers back than it was when we didn't have extra numbers back. Dropping players back has hurt our attack, which was already suffering from the lack of a ground game. Our ball use across the board has slipped to pathetic levels.

We don't win the ball. We don't use the ball. We don't pressure the opposition. We don't kick enough goals and we allow too many. The only reason we win games at all is because we have some excellent players who occasionally lift us over inferior opposition. It's the job of the coaching staff to get the players to play to the best of their ability. Right now we have precious few who are anywhere close to that.

If it comes down to sacking the coach versus sacking the players, you sack the coach every time. Rebuilding a list takes years, and there's every reason to think there's somebody better suited to coaching this list than the guy we've got now. At the very least, we need to have a review of our assistants, because we have way too many underperformers based on past performance without even factoring in potential. Ross has some time to get things right, but unless something breaks, he's serving time until he gets fired.

[rodgerfox]

Pretty simple really...

Pro-GT agenda = coach

Anti-GT agenda = list

Not really that simple.
I for one am in neither camp but if I think the coach is as bad as Timmy does that mean I am suddenly pro GT?

Yeah, on here it does.

[congorozides]

Can someone name 1 person on our entire list with genuine pace? Just 1? whi is the quickest at the club? probably still fraser.

and i mean genuine pace. dont go giving me the names of the usual plodders (for the record raph and fiora are NOT fast)

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Can someone name 1 person on our entire list with genuine pace? Just 1? whi is the quickest at the club? probably still fraser.

and i mean genuine pace. dont go giving me the names of the usual plodders (for the record raph and fiora are NOT fast)

Well, apart from you being wrong about both Raph and definately Fiora...

Gram,
Montagna,
Reiwoldt,
Xavier Clarke

Are all guys I've seen outrun opponents frequently. Others do it in spurts.

Speed is more a function of how the team uses the ball than individual efforts. Geelong runs Mackie and Wojinski off half back and it makes the entire team look faster that it did when Mackie was up front. Similarly, Hawthorn does a good job of making sure they get guys like Bateman open on the wings, and they run away from the opposition, or have Rioli chasing...

Essendon is suddenly considered fast having put all their leg speed into HB and midfield roles... a lot of those guys were there last year when they were considered slow.

However, to make it relevant, while your point is an over the top statement, it's not incorrect - even if we put Fiora and Raph into the team, are we going to use these guys to create speed? Neither of them sprints with the ball to break lines (occasionally, but not often), and those listed above (with the recent exception of Gram) certainly aren't doing it.

The rest of the time we're getting beaten for pace 1-on-1 all too frequently.

[AP Erebus]

I say either C or D...

RL is doing pretty well considering he's a second year coach. The list is not great but their is a foundation to be built on..


Also, since when does RL tell players to not hit targets over 15-30m by hand or foot... I'm sure he deliberately instructs them to turn the ball over

[congorozides]

we need more intensity when we they have it or noone has it; and
better kicking when we do have it

footy is that not that complicated.