Completely outcoached

[bigred]

beats our current "let-a-40-point-lead-slip-away-and-then-get-our-asses-handed-to-us-on-a-plate" gameplan, that's for sure.

Yeah, I'm sure Roos Lyon had steam coming out of his nostrils, was absolutely fuming as he approached the players at quarter time when we were 7 goals to one up and then proceeded to read the players the riot act.

I'm sure he took several players aside and chastized them all for going in hard, winning the ball, moving it fast through the corridoor and kicking long to the three tall forwards that he selected to play there for god knows what reason.

I'm sure he told the players at quarter time, look this is simply unacceptable, have you forgotten everything I've told you, you all know the game plan, now get out there, be second to the ball, slow things down, drop your intensity and for gods sake chip the ball around.



FAIR DINKUM


Five years of recruiting SLOW players is not very helpful in today's modern game, thankfully ROSS LYON is addressing this incompetence that he inherited, it will eventually reap the rewards, won't happen overnight but it will happen.

As it stands we are one of the slowest teams in the AFL, if not the slowest, as a result of your hero's buffoonery and incompetence and they are just the FACTS!

Your post seems to contradict itself.

Our 1st Q was ideal.

Then because we fell away badly and did nothing to stop the bleeding - we're slow?

If we're slow, surely we're slow form the first bounce? Not just after Q time?

Agreed.

Our first quarter was just sensational. Four quarters of that football week in week out would definately put you in the running for a flag. No doubt about it.

I think a lot would have been learned from the doggies game.

And a darn lot more valueable than a lot of the talk around here.

yeah sure, GT would be salivating over our injury list. Yeah, after his third or fourth bottle of red? We would still be using ruckmen the calibre of Nobel or Rix....Our mids would be reading the opposition rucks to the ball etc etc....

[To the top]

To those referring to Thomas, we got smashed year after year by teams doing the same as Footscray did on Friday night - and it is still happening.

Remember v. Footscray at the MCG in 2004? Same thing exactly.

Thomas used to defend by saying we will play our brand of football, Lyon tries to zone off and flood - and neither work, so perhaps it is the players we have.

And that goes to our recruiting.

[rexy]

Not sure why the debate is about GT versus RL, GT is not the coach anymore and never will be again I wouldnt think. RL is now the coach and is the only coach who can take us to a flag this year. He has a talented enough list and I am sure he is capable of turning it around if he is willing to assess what portion of Fridays loss was due to poor execution and what portion was due to bad decisions or lack of decisions from the box.

IMO he is a good coach of the side without the ball but is lacking in creativity with his gameplan when we have the ball. Furthermore I feel at this stage he does not show enough faith in the midfield to win the ball around the stoppages, instead he overuses the tag and we end up with a centre square full of negaters (is that a word?).

On Friday night Eade put all the guys with the tag in the guts and just relied on the fact that they were the better footballers, whilst our midfield stars had to get to the contest b4 they could influence it, which IMO put us on the back foot and allowed them to peel off and run.

By the way, did anyone play on Josh Hill at all?

[joffaboy]

Not sure why the debate is about GT versus RL, GT is not the coach anymore and never will be again

Because there are posters here with agendas. If we are going well these posters are never to be heard from. If we are struggling the agenda ears its head and they hark back to the "good old days" of failing in PF's as opposed to failing to make the 8.

This in turn will cause the GT haters to blame the current problems on his legacy, and the same tired, dreary, well worn, turgid, recycled, recidivist, retrograde arguments begin again between the pro and ant Thomas brigade who will, never, ever let it die.

[Ralphy]

why are we cracking at Ross after 1 game one loss its 3 games into 2008 season,


lets crack at him when we lose 5 games in a row WE CAN WIN THIS WEEKEND

[clarky449]

Bloody hell it wasnt the coaches fault it was the players the players are playing and they wernt good enough

[Otiman]

I just believe that we went (either mentally, or directed to) into game saving mode, and shut up shop. But we are not as ruthlessly defensive as we need to be, especially if our brains aren't switched on, which is what seemed to be the case.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

At the end of the day, that is my assessment of Friday night. And not the first time IMO.

Backline match ups all at sea. Raph to small for his opponents. Gilbert to big.

Reiwoldt to deep and all of our forwards leading to one spot Richmond style.

To much emphasis placed on midfield match ups and not enough on winning the pill around the stoppages.

That last one drives me nuts. When the Saints are in need of a goal with the game on the line, surely we go with Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo in the middle... just the only time I've seen that combo this year was when the game was decided against Carlton and Kosi was rucking.

My biggest concern, or rather, the symptom that leads me to believe that there is a problem, is that week in, week out the Saints game and gameplan appears to be dictated to them by their opponent.

Sydney - Trench Warfare.
Carlton - Shootout.
Bulldogs - Run From Defense.

I find it very worrying that before the inability to bury teams, if the Saints aren't basically dominating the clearances (which looks similar from just about any team), they're responding.

If we went back and watched a tape of the Brisbane loss at the Gabba last year, we'd see that at times we had 2 taggers in the middle for centre bounces.

I'm really starting to wonder - just what is Ross Lyon's preferred style of football?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

He is so inflexible that when supercoach Rodney Eade comes up with the masterstroke of switching from flooding to "man on man" in Q2 (a work of genius: how on earth did he come up with that one), supercoach Barney and his fellow gumbies were totally at a loss at how to counter it.

Going by the number of times at centre bounces we'd have 4 defenders (including a loose man) in our defensive 50 with the bulk of players at the doggies end, I'd suggest it was US going man on man, not Eade.

At the end of the 1st quarter they started pushing back lots of numbers, not trying to get a specific loose man, just trying to get weight of numbers at their half back line.

It worked.

[St DAC]

It's not just about clearances though. Collingwood were smashed by Richmond in the clearances, and still won with ease. It's about winning the ball, and using it well. After Q1 the Dogs did both, and we were very poor indeed.

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

[rodgerfox]

To those referring to Thomas, we got smashed year after year by teams doing the same as Footscray did on Friday night - and it is still happening.

Remember v. Footscray at the MCG in 2004? Same thing exactly.

Thomas used to defend by saying we will play our brand of football, Lyon tries to zone off and flood - and neither work, so perhaps it is the players we have.

And that goes to our recruiting.

Speaking of agendas.

Smashed??

Year after year??

Examples?

Eade never coached a win against Thomas at the Dogs.

Did these year after year smashings happen in the years we played in prelims whilst decimated?

Or the year we had the worst injury list in the comp and arguably the worst draw, yet still notched up 14 wins?

If you're going to drag up boring and tired old arguments can you please try to keep remotely close to the truth?

[rodgerfox]

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

Why do we have a coach?

[barks4eva]

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

Why do we have a coach?

Just thought we'd try something different after over 5 years without one, no doubt!

[rodgerfox]

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

Why do we have a coach?

Just thought we'd try something different after over 5 years without one, no doubt!

Do you think it's working??

[barks4eva]

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

Why do we have a coach?

Just thought we'd try something different after over 5 years without one, no doubt!

Do you think it's working??

Honestly, after 5 years of pathetic and incompetent list management, recruiting and development our list is VERY SLOW and in need of rebuilding.

This will take time, there are no magic fixes for the incompetent way the football department was run previously.

BUT things are turning quickly, the benefits will be reaped, for we have sown the seeds, the harvest will come, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

Now we have seen some decent recruiting in the last draft, King is a gun ruckman at 28 yo for a pick in the 90's for starters, but aside from this we desperately need some quick young guys coming through, our mids are pedestrian and rarely kick goals.

Ross Lyon identified many areas of neglect and aside from recruiting which was one of them, fitness and match conditioning is another.

Seriously when for example, Misson asks for time trials for a particular player dating back a few years and is told, ummm they don't exist, then what's the go with that?

Thankfully we now have a professionally run football department and the players are finally getting the proper routines and advice to keep themselves in shape.

No doubt this neglect, cost us massively in the past.

Onto the actual onfield performances, even though we have only lost one game, things are not going swimmingly but nor did they at the start of 97 for that matter.

I do believe that we cannot afford to carry some players anymore and we need to inject youth into the team without further delay.

I also believe and have for sometime that we need to change the structure, first thing I would do is play Gram on the wing, he is a liability in defence, his run would be ideal as the next link in the chain from the middle of the ground, I'd also try Kossie at CHB or even as a floating extra player across half back without an opponent especially when things are running against us, perhaps not all the time, but I'd certainly not always play him as a forward.

It gets too predictable for starters, particularly while our mids are still pedestrian, a massive thing that needs addressing.

Did Ross Lyon come down at quarter time flaring from the nostrils and read the players the riot act when we were leading 7 goals to 1, telling them to drop their intensity, be second to the ball, stop winning the midfield contest and kicking it in quickly and long to the THREE, tall forwards that he selected to play there?

I honestly do believe that things will turn, that it's early days, Ross Lyon knows his football more than most and the club is on the right track.

We, as I mentioned before though, IMHO desperately need to play some young kids with some pace and bring them through sooner rather than later.
Armitage is not the quickest of players but I'd have him in the team, without further delay, just play them, there are a few players who though they might try, are being carried and as an unit are not helping the team's overall development.

I can see progress, even though it might not yet have transferred directly into our current performances.

BUT it truly is amazing at how some react after just one loss.

I'm just thankful, that IMHO the club is heading in the right direction and the excellent things that have been done with the football department off field will eventually transfer into excellent results on it.

[Beej]

why are we cracking at Ross after 1 game one loss its 3 games into 2008 season,

In a season and three games under Lyon results have not improved, performances have not improved and we are certainly no closer to playing consistent four quarter footy.

Lyon hasn't even given us a single "100% effort, 100% of the time" style quote. Hasn't even attempted to beat his fist over his heart either, not even once. Not a trip to the movies and not even a hint of a Bonnie Doon bonding camp.

I'm sure Roosy would gladly give him his old job back, he was comfortable in Sydney behind the shadows.

[rodgerfox]

BUT it truly is amazing at how some react after just one loss.

Most of the reaction I've read is not as the result of one loss. It's the result of 18 months of poor footy and the very apparent lack of improvement.

[St DAC]

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

Why do we have a coach?

To teach and instruct the players in how to play to his preferred gameplan. But it's the players who must execute it. How did the gameplan look at quarter time? Do you think Ross implemented a different gameplan then that resulted in the turnaround we witnessed?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

It's not the coach out there winning the ball and dishing it off ...

Why do we have a coach?

To teach and instruct the players in how to play to his preferred gameplan. But it's the players who must execute it. How did the gameplan look at quarter time? Do you think Ross implemented a different gameplan then that resulted in the turnaround we witnessed?

No, that's part of the trouble. Eade shifted his approach nearing quarter time and it worked enough to get them off the back foot. They started to get onto the front foot, and Lyon had no answers.

The players lost the game, but Friday night, Eade helped give his guys a chance to win, and Lyon didn't do likewise.

[meher baba]

How did the gameplan look at quarter time? Do you think Ross implemented a different gameplan then that resulted in the turnaround we witnessed?

I haven't had time to watch the first quarter again, but I strongly suspect that the scoreline flattered us. The Dogs had at least two posters (or was it three) and we got a couple of 50/50 free kicks in front of goal.

That said, we certainly did better out of the middle in the first quarter. After that, I really did get the impression that we went more defensive and couldn't snap out of it.

I have an extremely demanding job, but - when I get a chance - I am going to go through some of our recent games and look at our midfield structure at every centre bounce. My impression is that it is far less attacking than that under GT. But I could be wrong about this: does somebody with more time than me want to have a look at this?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Honestly, after 5 years of pathetic and incompetent list management, recruiting and development our list is VERY SLOW and in need of rebuilding.

...

I'm just thankful, that IMHO the club is heading in the right direction and the excellent things that have been done with the football department off field will eventually transfer into excellent results on it.

So, let me get this straight...

it's a good thing that the Saints sunk down the ladder last year, and are looking shakey in this one? It's a good thing that you can even suggest that the list full of "young guns" that made consecutive prelims needs rebuilding as those guys enter their primes... because now the guy who was running the football dept when we got these guys is gone?

I like what I've seen of Westaway so far, I like the setup of seperating the jobs that used to be done by one man... but it doesn't even nearly make me happy about the decline in the play of St. Kilda over the last 2 years (3 really, but it's easier to drwa a line for 2005-6 than from 2006-7 with injuries).

[St DAC]

The players lost the game, but Friday night, Eade helped give his guys a chance to win, and Lyon didn't do likewise.

Or the players couldn't/wouldn't execute the instructions given. Coaching gets far too much credit on here ... it's the players who win games more so than coaches. And lose them too ...

Eade basically gave his onballers a reminder to get in first, and concentrate on winning the contested possessions; they did, we didn;t, and that's all she wrote. Our inability to win contested ball all over the ground gave us poor attacking options, poor defensive options, and made us look like hacks. Which for 3 quarters on Friday night we were.

[hilairehinshelwood]

At half time against the dogs we were still 3 goals ahead, but it was obvious at that stage which way the game was heading. After 3 games we are ahead 2 and 1 on the ladder, but seems only some can see where the season is heading. How we have played means more than ladder position at this stage.
Hopefully Lyon can change and adapt, unlike his inaction to the change in the dogs tactics. Players didn't suddenly turn rubbish after that first quarter, just the gameplan, for which lyon is responsible for.

[brown-coat]

Thomas used to defend by saying we will play our brand of football, Lyon tries to zone off and flood - and neither work, so perhaps it is the players we have.

And that goes to our recruiting.

Bingo.

I believe no amount of tactics can assist the slow plodding knackered midfield in Ball, Hayes and Dal Santo.

[barks4eva]

Honestly, after 5 years of pathetic and incompetent list management, recruiting and development our list is VERY SLOW and in need of rebuilding.

...

I'm just thankful, that IMHO the club is heading in the right direction and the excellent things that have been done with the football department off field will eventually transfer into excellent results on it.

So, let me get this straight...

it's a good thing that the Saints sunk down the ladder last year, and are looking shakey in this one? It's a good thing that you can even suggest that the list full of "young guns" that made consecutive prelims needs rebuilding as those guys enter their primes... because now the guy who was running the football dept when we got these guys is gone?

I like what I've seen of Westaway so far, I like the setup of seperating the jobs that used to be done by one man... but it doesn't even nearly make me happy about the decline in the play of St. Kilda over the last 2 years (3 really, but it's easier to drwa a line for 2005-6 than from 2006-7 with injuries).

Well that's what poor recruiting over a 5 year period will do to ya.

It's a good thing that off field the right structures and processes are now finally in place and as a result of this, things will turn for the better.

Afterall we only sunk from 8th to 9th as a result of the inherited neglect and incompetence.

This was Lyon's first off season to right the ship and get the place in order.

It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

One loss and everyone's burning their bra's

I'd hate to be in the trenches with some of you lot, FAIR DINKUM