How much good fotune did we have with our appointment of RL?

[Oh When the Saints]

Aren't we perhaps jumping the gun just a tad??

Last season Lyon looked unconfident, inflexible tactically and also to be a poor and uncertain communicator. Sure, the pre-season looked a bit better: he used a somewhat more attacking style and he seemed much to be much more confident. (I could also add that I thought that many of our players put in an excellent effort in the pre-season, but that would be detracting from the shared wisdom on this forum that it's all about the coach).

Agree that this is jumping the gun. Have said so on all my posts.

However, to describe Lyon as harshly as you have is inaccurate IMO. Especially considering the way the side performed in the second half of the year. Certainly against both Adelaide and Hawthorn he was not tactically inflexible or a poor communicator to his players.

The change in his confidence comes IMO from working in an environment in which he is much more comfortable.

And having had 12 months to settle in ..... I reckon anyone would have struggled with the on and off field challenges Lyon was thrown last year. He was cast into the deep end.

[bigcarl]

I reckon anyone would have struggled with the on and off field challenges Lyon was thrown last year. He was cast into the deep end.

true. he was thrown into the middle of a civil war between the GT and RB factions at the club, so that it why i'm prepared to cut him some slack.

every indication is that has taken on board criticisms of the defensive style of game from last year and is trying to move us towards a premiership in 2008.

we should all get behind him

[saintsRrising]

Because Mr Drain has now shown that he, and he alone can deliver.........

No..you are confused...that was the GT mantra..

The load has now been spread....of which Drain is but one part.

[saintsRrising]

Aren't we perhaps jumping the gun just a tad??

Last season Lyon looked unconfident, inflexible tactically and also to be a poor and uncertain communicator. Sure, the pre-season looked a bit better: he used a somewhat more attacking style and he seemed much to be much more confident. (I could also add that I thought that many of our players put in an excellent effort in the pre-season, but that would be detracting from the shared wisdom on this forum that it's all about the coach).

Well that may be your shared wisdom....I put it down to collective and shared effort.

No doubt RL is a key....but we now have the load shared by many with different responsibilities..

For example conditioning of the players..

Another example is developing the skills of the players and the younger players...perhaps you may have noted an improvement in tackling perhaps? or rookies who are developed into players actually good enough to play AFL footie...rather than to just sink or swim at an alienated Scorpions FC.


Another element has been good recruiting and trading....

[saintsRrising]

Last season Lyon looked ......to be a poor and uncertain communicator.

????? That is not what the players say.

Would you prefer the Terry on Tuesday approach...a media star coach......or the glib salesman we had before??

Personanly I prefer the non-nonsense coach.

In that way RL reminds me a lot of Jeansy....dour, direct and too the point and not seeking to boost his own profile.

[rodgerfox]

For example conditioning of the players..

Another example is developing the skills of the players and the younger players...perhaps you may have noted an improvement in tackling perhaps? or rookies who are developed into players actually good enough to play AFL footie...rather than to just sink or swim at an alienated Scorpions FC.

Another element has been good recruiting and trading....

I'll repeat, so far Lyon has only on his resume, taking a top 4 to missing the finals.

If you're jumping at praccy matches for evidence of anything, perhaps you should give Denis Pagan a call and ask him what the pre-season tells us.

In your fantasy world, have we actually done something of note on the footy field since Lyon has taken over?

[rodgerfox]

Another element has been good recruiting and trading....

Another element of what??

As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) we had a top list that missed the top 4 on % in 2006, then missed the finals last year.

What, and where is this magical improvement you keep referring to?

[saintsRrising]

Aren't we perhaps jumping the gun just a tad??

1/ On how good RL is? Yes. Just a tad. Signs are good though this time.....and no not the ones GT is reading about Harvey.


2/ On whether we were right to have sacked GT? I think is now clear to 99% that was the correct decision.


Just imagine 2008 with GT still at the helm...Sugar and Rix our ruck combination.

Harvey having been exited out.

Milne at the Dons...with Johnno at the saints making us an even slower team..

GTrain permanently retired.

Brooksy still play in the 2s.

The Saints seconds playing in Tassie after Casey ditched us due to all the bad blood.

Schneider at the Swans.

King at the Dogs.

Saints fans once again bemoaning the poor state of our rookie list....

Fiora delisted after a dud 2007

[st.byron]

Agree that this is jumping the gun. Have said so on all my posts.

However, to describe Lyon as harshly as you have is inaccurate IMO. Especially considering the way the side performed in the second half of the year. Certainly against both Adelaide and Hawthorn he was not tactically inflexible or a poor communicator to his players.

The change in his confidence comes IMO from working in an environment in which he is much more comfortable.

And having had 12 months to settle in ..... I reckon anyone would have struggled with the on and off field challenges Lyon was thrown last year. He was cast into the deep end.

ONce again you're exactly right OWTS. Meher, I don't see anyone claiming Lyon is a supercoach as you so melodramatically state. What people are acknowledging, with good reason, is that he's done a great job up until now. Having had a year and a bit to shape the playing list, a president and board that are professional and focused and the support of new fitness staff, we are in better shape at this point of the season than any in recent memory at least. It doesn't mean he's a bloody wizard or that Matthew Drain is either, but they're doing a bloody good job so far and your backhanded derogatory tone is unnecessary IMHFHO.

[st.byron]

In your fantasy world, have we actually done something of note on the footy field since Lyon has taken over?

yeh yeh Roger, you've just got glass half emptyitis. Won 7.5 out of last 11 last year and the pre-season has been solid, focused and almost injury free.
Rome wasn't built in a day FFS.

[saintsRrising]

Another element has been good recruiting and trading....

As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) we had a top list that missed the top 4 on % in 2006, then missed the finals last year.

What, and where is this magical improvement you keep referring to?

Ok...you are wrong.


We had many good players, but not enough....but with huge gaps such as no good rucks and a wave of older mids with few ready replacements.

We had poor depth....

We had a list going backwards....as GT had little ability to sift and improve.

With prioirty picks having dried up, no good players flocking to the club as they had for Blight, and Waldron having left GT was left to manage and build the list.......and being inept it was in decline.


Two years of better drafting and trading has improved the list markedly from 2008.

[yipper]

Agree that this is jumping the gun. Have said so on all my posts.

However, to describe Lyon as harshly as you have is inaccurate IMO. Especially considering the way the side performed in the second half of the year. Certainly against both Adelaide and Hawthorn he was not tactically inflexible or a poor communicator to his players.

The change in his confidence comes IMO from working in an environment in which he is much more comfortable.

And having had 12 months to settle in ..... I reckon anyone would have struggled with the on and off field challenges Lyon was thrown last year. He was cast into the deep end.

ONce again you're exactly right OWTS. Meher, I d"on't see anyone claiming Lyon is a supercoach as you so melodramatically state. What people are acknowledging, with good reason, is that he's done a great job up until now. Having had a year and a bit to shape the playing list, a president and board that are professional and focused and the support of new fitness staff, we are in better shape at this point of the season than any in recent memory at least. It doesn't mean he's a bloody wizard or that Matthew Drain is either, but they're doing a bloody good job so far and your backhanded derogatory tone is unnecessary IMHFHO.

Well, in 12 months our so-called window is open wide again, our list is fitter, deeper and our structure has been improved immeasurably. We have a giant ruck combo, fit and deeper mid-field and off-field support systems that are second to none. All the "experts" are hailing the transformation and predicting big things for us - so yeah, I reckon the coach is earning his money thus far. He's certainly looking the goods at this stage.

[saintsRrising]

On RL and the game plan.

The Saints defensive side was virtually non-existant when he took over. Previously if a good team got going we were powerless to stop them.

First he had to teach the players how to control a game...and put the brakes on when required.

For example the Crows run off their HB line could destroy us.....whereas in the NAB GF try as the Crows did....they could rarely get it going.


The Saints then had to learn how to better swith from defensive play to offensive...

IMO late last year they started to get the handle on it.



Lastly with the game plan RL obviously had a vision for the team balance and structure he wanted.

The team he inherited had huge gaps and deficincies. With 2 draft and trade periods RL has now been able to build the team towards what he wants.

Gaps have been filled....and not just anymore with Pollyfilla Blake


In 2008 we will see how he has gone in combining list building with gameplan.

[jackal]

It's too early to judge him yet but a couple of good points have been raised here that are clearly apparant from where I sit.

1)The game plan slowly started to work last year but they now have it down pat. The game plan looks solid.

2)We now have a ruck division that could lead us forward

3)Injuries and Potential are gone. I give Lyon full credit for the 10 or so retirements/delistings and their replacements. It is clear that 3 if not 4 of his recruits from Geelong and Sydney will be in our 22, a huge win. The Watts/Brooks fiasco that has hurt this club can now be gone with. Guys like Gilbert, Allen, Geary and even Jones are ahead of these guys and will be up to league footy (and I do notice that neither of Brooks or Watts is playing VFL or similar).

Lyon looks the goods, lets bring it on!!!!!!!!

[barks4eva]

I'll repeat, so far Lyon has only on his resume, taking a top 4 to missing the finals.

I let it go the first 8 times you posted it in the past few days, but seeing as though you claim this as fact, perhaps you'd actually like to know what the real FACT of the matter is, dodgy.


Lyon inherited NOT a top 4 team as you falsely claim, but a team that finished 8th>FACT

Through poor list management and recruiting a list that had slipped into decline from 4th to 8th.

Because you're a bit slow on the uptake, I'll repeat it for you, Lyon inherited a side that finished 8th in it's previous season and before you go on about missing top 4 by percentage, conversely, if not for Daniel Motlop and Jason Johnson missing absolute sitters we might have missed the finals altogether.

With all the inner turmoil and the amateur club that Lyon walked into only 18 months ago, it is truly amazing, the tranformation that has taken place on so many levels, right across the board.

St.kilda for the first time in it's history has a professionally run football department.

Lyon is a very smart operator who chooses his words carefully, which is a lot more than you can say about his predecessor.

Anyway dodgy, the point is Lyon inherited a side in decline, that finished 8th, got it?

The fact that he has turned around the list so quickly in such a small amount of time is a credit to him and everyone else who was actively involved in this process.

[evertonfc]

There's no way in the world we can say we're 'lucky' to have a bloke who took a list which had finished 3rd, 4th and 6th into one which couldn't make the eight.

Some perspective, please.

Quite simply, it's been a really positive pre-season, and Lyon has improved as a coach and communicator - no doubt about it.

He put in a great shift at trade week and we drafted reasonably well.

I think the Westaway crew has lifted the club; I think Lyon has lifted in tandem and maybe - finally - Archie Fraser is getting his wheels turning, too.

We need to keep working hard on and off the field, and I'm confident good fortune will come only after that base has been solidified.

'The harder I practice, the luckier I get.'
- Gary Player

[meher baba]

Aren't we perhaps jumping the gun just a tad??

1/ On how good RL is? Yes. Just a tad. Signs are good though this time.....and no not the ones GT is reading about Harvey.


2/ On whether we were right to have sacked GT? I think is now clear to 99% that was the correct decision.


Just imagine 2008 with GT still at the helm...Sugar and Rix our ruck combination.

Harvey having been exited out.

Milne at the Dons...with Johnno at the saints making us an even slower team..

GTrain permanently retired.

Brooksy still play in the 2s.

The Saints seconds playing in Tassie after Casey ditched us due to all the bad blood.

Schneider at the Swans.

King at the Dogs.

Saints fans once again bemoaning the poor state of our rookie list....

Fiora delisted after a dud 2007

sRr, you've made my day!! What a load of half-baked assertion and supposition!!

I guess my earlier post must have made your day too, given that you have replied to it on no less than 3 separate occasions!!

A few points.

1. I don't believe that I said anything in my earlier post about the decision to sack GT. The decision to sack GT was a kneejerk and vindictive move by a bunch of twits who rightly got shown the door by the St Kilda members. Nothing that can happen in the future will ever vindicate the decision to sack GT, which was made on an incorrect basis. But it's all ancient history now, so trying to justify it or criticise it isn't going to make any difference to anything. However, RL turning out to be a good coach - something we are all hoping like hell will happen - will certainly justify his selection over the other possible choices.

2. Some of your fantasies verge on the delusional (eg, ascribing G-Train's decision to come back in 2008 as something to do with Lyon being coach rather than Thommo, or the idea that Lyon had some magical effect on Fiora's efforts). I suppose GT would have stopped us from ratifying the Kyoto protocal and apologising to the stolen generations as well.

3. You still haven't told me why Matthew Drain is going to be so wonderful (BTW, I'm not suggesting that he won't be wonderful, just wondering why I have to accept it on faith).

[rodgerfox]

I'll repeat, so far Lyon has only on his resume, taking a top 4 to missing the finals.

I let it go the first 8 times you posted it in the past few days, but seeing as though you claim this as fact, perhaps you'd actually like to know what the real FACT of the matter is, dodgy.


Lyon inherited NOT a top 4 team as you falsely claim, but a team that finished 8th>FACT

Tpo 4 list is what I wrote.

Seeing as we only played the H&A season last year, I am drawing comparison with 2006 based on that.

As I clarified in a post yesterday - after the H&A season in 06, we finished % off the top, after the H&A season in 07 we were having Mad Monday after finishing 9th.

Or, to make it easier to comprehend - in 06 we won 14 games. In 07 we won 11.

Better?

With all the inner turmoil and the amateur club that Lyon walked into only 18 months ago, it is truly amazing, the tranformation that has taken place on so many levels, right across the board.

Totally agree. We were a joke off-field. A complete joke. Funny that you declared Rod Butterss 'the best there is' too. That's gold.

Lyon is a very smart operator who chooses his words carefully, which is a lot more than you can say about his predecessor.

Although I don't see what relevance this comment has - I don't disagree. I like Lyon. He's fantastic for our club and I believe he will be a great coach who does great things with our club.

I've never said anything otherwise.

What I'm saying, and have always said, is that he hasn't done anything so far. He's taken a team that had 14 wins and % off top 4 for the 3rd straight year, to the lowest scoring team in the comp that missed the finals. For the first time in many years too, we lost 4 in a row.

To be talking up tis massive improvement on-field, is at the absolute very least, premature.

The fact that he has turned around the list so quickly in such a small amount of time is a credit to him and everyone else who was actively involved in this process.

Again, where has it turned around?

We missed the 8 last year and haven't played a game in 2008.

Ask Denis Pagan how well he turned his list around in 06. Then ask him again about 07.

I'm staggered that what appear to be long time football following adults, are getting excited and making big assumptions based on the pre-season.

It's simply staggering.

We've had discards help us win a pre-season cup before. People have very short memories.

[rodgerfox]

In your fantasy world, have we actually done something of note on the footy field since Lyon has taken over?

yeh yeh Roger, you've just got glass half emptyitis. Won 7.5 out of last 11 last year and the pre-season has been solid, focused and almost injury free.
Rome wasn't built in a day FFS.

I don't have anything.

We had a disgusting year last year.

Anyone who disputes that is either in denial, or delusional. It was embarrassing for our club, and a disgrace that a list as good as ours can miss the 8.

"Won 7.5 out of last 11 last year and the pre-season has been solid, focused and almost injury free."

the only part I see as being of any relevance is the last bit. Won 7.5 of the last 11???!! WTF? Are we hanging our hats on that?

Considering Carlton and Richmond tanked against us, I'm not overly happy with those figures.

I still cannot believe people are using the pre-season cup as any guide of where we're at.

Are football supporters that thick? Anyone remember a club called Carlton?

Fair dinkum.

[saintsRrising]

sRr, you've made my day!! What a load of half-baked assertion and supposition!!

I guess my earlier post must have made your day too, given that you have replied to it on no less than 3 separate occasions!!

A few points.

I don't believe that I said anything in my earlier post about the decision to sack GT. The decision to sack GT was a kneejerk and vindictive move by a bunch of twits who rightly got shown the door by the St Kilda members. .

1/ 3 of the "twits" you refer to are still at the club. But don't let facts stand in your way.

2/ Why was the decision knee jerk? From what I know it was considered over an extended period of time. It was also done after an external consulatnt had reviewed the club. GT refused to implement any of the important changes. Contrast this with Thompson who while not agreeing with the ctas review went along with the recommendations.

My criticism of RB and the then Board was they acted too slowly. I wish they had done the "knee jerk" reaction as soon as GT refused to havea football manager at the Club (which by the way did not necessarily have to be Drain but he was best avaialble at the time).

3/ Why Vindictive??

a/ You had an employee who actively refused to follow advice and instruction....and not just from the Board.....but also from the CEO who by the way is also still at the club.

b/ Said employee also demanded to be responsible for the conditioning mangement of players, which remained poor.


Then there is a long long list of other reasons including the fact that GT could not work with Casey.

[rodgerfox]

1/ 3 of the "twits" you refer to are still at the club. But don't let facts stand in your way.

2/ Why was the decision knee jerk? From what I know it was considered over an extended period of time. It was also done after an external consulatnt had reviewed the club. GT refused to implement any of the important changes. Contrast this with Thompson who while not agreeing with the ctas review went along with the recommendations.

My criticism of RB and the then Board was they acted too slowly. I wish they had done the "knee jerk" reaction as soon as GT refused to havea football manager at the Club (which by the way did not necessarily have to be Drain but he was best avaialble at the time).

3/ Why Vindictive??

a/ You had an employee who actively refused to follow advice and instruction....and not just from the Board.....but also from the CEO who by the way is also still at the club.

b/ Said employee also demanded to be responsible for the conditioning mangement of players, which remained poor.


Then there is a long long list of other reasons including the fact that GT could not work with Casey.

That is simply laughable.

If they are the reasons you think he was sacked, you are very, very naive.

[saintsRrising]

I still cannot believe people are using the pre-season cup as any guide of where we're at.

.

I don't think many are using the Cup as a Guide,,,they are using the whole pre-season as a guide.

Most are are looking not so much whether we won or lost....the NAB are practice matches and so the final score counts for little.

What they are doing is looking at the list as a whole and comparing it with previous pre-seasons.

What many are seeing is a list which is:

* a lot fitter with more players fit and ready to play...rather than list crippled with injury which is what we have had to endure for years.

* a list that have had more training as runners.....and so are look lean and ready for todays running game...as opposed to the "pumped up muscle" look previous in vogue.

* a list which has had a number of gaps filled.
*** Good Ruckmen not seen in a Saints jumper for years are in evidence
*** A much expanded midfield

* a team which is no enacting RL's gameplan as he wanst it played.
*** more routes to gial than just GTrain, Roo and Milne
* a list with some more youngsters coming through

* a list which clearly has more depth to it now....and importantly more depth in areas that we were weak in.

[barks4eva]

Funny that you declared Rod Butterss 'the best there is' too. That's gold.

That was a joke dodgy, in response to Mischa's sig at the time"GT the best there is" which is fair dinkum the most piss funny thing I've ever read on here.


It surprises me NOT, that even this goes over your head, dodgy.

[saintsRrising]

That is simply laughable.

If they are the reasons you think he was sacked, you are very, very naive.

OK....I will call you bluff...what is your reason????

...and I hope it is lot better than RB sacked him because GT would not pay the money back crock that some peddle....only the truly naive would believe that one.

It certainly muddied the waters though.

Though GT fooled RB into thinking he could coach......or pay the money back!!!! So his sales background was not completely wasted. Trouble is whena salesman misrepresents what he is selling...it comes back and bites him on the bumb.

PS GT did not owe Archie any money....nor Casey...so what were the reasons he could not work with them.........or the constantly rotating group of assistant coaches at the Saints????
Why did he start blewing with Jones and Larcom...two guys that he hired???

[barks4eva]

I still cannot believe people are using the pre-season cup as any guide of where we're at.

.

I don't think many are using the Cup as a Guide,,,they are using the whole pre-season as a guide.

Most are are looking not so much whether we won or lost....the NAB are practice matches and so the final score counts for little.

What they are doing is looking at the list as a whole and comparing it with previous pre-seasons.

What many are seeing is a list which is:

* a lot fitter with more players fit and ready to play...rather than list crippled with injury which is what we have had to endure for years.

* a list that have had more training as runners.....and so are look lean and ready for todays running game...as opposed to the "pumped up muscle" look previous in vogue.

* a list which has had a number of gaps filled.
*** Good Ruckmen not seen in a Saints jumper for years are in evidence
*** A much expanded midfield

* a team which is no enacting RL's gameplan as he wanst it played.
*** more routes to gial than just GTrain, Roo and Milne
* a list with some more youngsters coming through

* a list which clearly has more depth to it now....and importantly more depth in areas that we were weak in.

EXACTLY, the optimism started before the pre-season for a whole host of reason's.
sRr, thankfully there is someone such as yourself on here trying to educate the laterally challenged, but I'm afraid as far as dodgy and mebabble go, it's a futile exercise.

I totally agree with everything you wrote, good to see someone on here with a real fair dinkum clue.