How did we go from top 4 to season over in 5 weeks?

[Teflon]

It was entirely predictable that the anti-Ratten Brigade on this forum were going to sink the boot deeper into Brett Ratten (and the club for extending his contract) after such a woeful result on Saturday night and to be honest, I felt utterly devastated, disgusted, disenchanted, despondent, pissed off even, after enduring the agony of watching the total capitulation by the team against Fremantle, a team that they had beaten in WA no less earlier in the season.

I have purposely held off coming online until today because if there is one thing I have learned after decades of being a passionate Sainter, it is that it's much better to wait until well after the dust has settled to pass judgment when St Kilda get done, but yes, I lay awake for a fair while on Saturday night going over the many lowlights of the game.

Included in my ruminations about the game it struck me how unique and ultra exciting Aussie Rules is compared to all other codes of football.

36 players on the field at the same time, a very large oval shaped playing field with 4 tall posts at each end, 3 central, 4 boundary and 2 goal umpires, there's no other sport remotely like ours on this planet. It is an incredible number of moving parts which makes it really difficult to avoid chaos and develop a complex game plan, the success of which is entirely dependent on the skill levels and teamwork of the 36 individual players. So much can go wrong, not least inconsistent decisions by the umpires, and let's face it, they're not popes, they stuff up as easily as the players.

If there is one thing that I feel sure about in our elite competition in the modern era it is that it is never ever simply the case that the coach is responsible for the outcome of a game, win or lose. That was probably quite so back in the good ole days of Jack "Captain Blood" Dyer, Ron Barassi, Tom Hafey, Alan Jeans, John Kennedy, Ted Whitten, an era when football was a tough man's game, played at a snail's pace compared to today, plenty of blood and guts, and coaches that all but belted the s*** out of their players when they stuffed up. We need to recognise that in the 21st century the game is so much different to what it was in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

Just consider this: David Noble had to prostrate himself in front of his playing group and apologise for giving them a verbal spray, what is the world coming to????

So, as I've mentioned in previous posts, in my mind by far the most important factor in a team's performance is the quality of the team list. It is only when a list has accumulated a strong balance of experience and youth, at the very least 6, preferably more genuine A grade players, that the club is in a position to respond effectively to the coach's carefully crafted game plan and posses the required teamwork to carry this out successfully and become a serious contender for the silverware.

By any measure, St Kilda's playing list is well short of those benchmarks and I remain convinced that Brett Ratten should not be condemned for the failure of the players to take full advantage in dominating the possession count, clearances and time the ball was locked in St Kilda's forward zone. Poor skills cost the team big time, there were simply not enough highly skilled players to do the job, whereas Freo had many many more. Once again opposition teams were able to counter a dysfunctional St Kilda forward line.

I'm in no doubt that if the selectors had their time over again they would have played Lienert instead of Joyce in Howard's absence - I mean, why pick a bloke who has played just 2 games this year and only 13 in 4 seasons, instead of Lienert who's played 7 and 30, the mismatch on Rory Lobb was really bad - Lobb took 4 marks and kicked 2.2, compared to Joyce not a single catch!! Surely that game marked his card....buy him a one-way ticket back to the Emerald Isle NOW.....

The forthcoming off-season trading and drafts gives St Kilda the opportunity to improve the list - 2 gun midfielders at the very least.

I try very hard to always remain objective when I discuss football with my mates and in my comments on this forum and to remain totally impartial about players and coaches (other than Joyce obviously ) but honestly believe that taking pot shots at Brett Ratten for the way the players performed on Saturday night is grossly unfair and not justified - to paraphrase a common saying in politics about the economy: "It's the players, stupid"!

I hope you didn’t lie awake all night for that
Anyone who watches a loss knows it’s not 1 thing but a combination of factors that go into it - players and coaching
Ofcourse players need to execute basic skills - that’s a given
I suggest you dig out the Sam Mitchell YouTube on BF where he outlines one of the key responsibilities of the COACH is to actively work on improving the skill level of his side.
It’s in how and what you practice.
I read a fascinating view recently from a global sports professor in the soccer sphere who has worked across all major clubs. Interesting to hear his take that when teaching players coaching is at the forefront of improving their skills base. He argues the easiest things to teach first are physical aspects , eg tackling, pressure …(sound familiar???), even fitness as sll clubs are well versed in these areas.
The hard things that require a structured approach (abd a very good coach) at training are things like skill execution under pressure - his view was the quality of the coach to be able to develop the drills that focus purely on the decision making components of execution under pressure with players only praised when they master the core attributes associated with executing under pressure is critical. Apparently at Hawks this was a critical Clarkson focus (and he recruited hood ball users accordingly)
What’s this mean for Brett ???? A whole lot
3 years he’s had this list
3 years ago it was “if you can’t kick you don’t play”
Guess what ??? BS words
3 years zero system into f50?????? Bombing on to a skinny kids head?
Inconsistent effort from players??
1 4 quarter effort all year - the entire team in the past 5 games is playing bottom 4 football
And you’re telling us all “nothing to see with Brett’s coaching ….it’s just that now all of a sudden the entire Saints list lacks skill??”
What utter nonsense
We have no brand
No consistent game style - it’s either panic rush rush or go so slow the entire opposition is camped in our f50 by the time we finish our mandatory 58 handballs to blokes standing still from defence
Wake up - this is a poorly coached side
Players look confused and going backwards
Steele looks B grade FFS

[Sanctorum]

I hope you didn’t lie awake all night for that
Anyone who watches a loss knows it’s not 1 thing but a combination of factors that go into it - players and coaching
Ofcourse players need to execute basic skills - that’s a given
I suggest you dig out the Sam Mitchell YouTube on BF where he outlines one of the key responsibilities of the COACH is to actively work on improving the skill level of his side.
It’s in how and what you practice.
I read a fascinating view recently from a global sports professor in the soccer sphere who has worked across all major clubs. Interesting to hear his take that when teaching players coaching is at the forefront of improving their skills base. He argues the easiest things to teach first are physical aspects , eg tackling, pressure …(sound familiar???), even fitness as sll clubs are well versed in these areas.
The hard things that require a structured approach (abd a very good coach) at training are things like skill execution under pressure - his view was the quality of the coach to be able to develop the drills that focus purely on the decision making components of execution under pressure with players only praised when they master the core attributes associated with executing under pressure is critical. Apparently at Hawks this was a critical Clarkson focus (and he recruited hood ball users accordingly)
What’s this mean for Brett ???? A whole lot
3 years he’s had this list
3 years ago it was “if you can’t kick you don’t play”
Guess what ??? BS words
3 years zero system into f50?????? Bombing on to a skinny kids head?
Inconsistent effort from players??
1 4 quarter effort all year - the entire team in the past 5 games is playing bottom 4 football
And you’re telling us all “nothing to see with Brett’s coaching ….it’s just that now all of a sudden the entire Saints list lacks skill??”
What utter nonsense
We have no brand
No consistent game style - it’s either panic rush rush or go so slow the entire opposition is camped in our f50 by the time we finish our mandatory 58 handballs to blokes standing still from defence
Wake up - this is a poorly coached side
Players look confused and going backwards
Steele looks B grade FFS

Wrong Teflon, I've been drawing attention to the weaknesses in the St Kilda playing list going back to before the season started - anyone that bothered to make this analysis should have seen and acknowledged that as well. If you accept that as an irrefutable fact then is it not, by your reasoning, validation of Brett Ratten's coaching prowess when the team had won 8 from 11 games before the bye?

If you watched the way Geelong demolished Melbourne by almost 5 goals on Thursday night did you conclude that was due to Scott's brilliant coaching and/or Goodwin's failure as a coach?? Does it mean that this proves the Geelong brand" is better than the Melbourne brand"?

The Bulldogs are going through a serious slump, they have a bit more talent on their list than the Saints, does that mean Luke Beveridge can't coach??

Thank you for pointing out Sam Mitchell's summary of Clarkson's coaching methods, there's no doubt Hawthorn set the standard for many years and had a fantastic brand. I would have thought that with Brett Ratten's experience as Clarkson's assistant for many years he would have brought some of Clarko's IP strategies with him, as you'd expect would David Rath when he crossed over from Hawtborn, not to mention Jordan Roughead, wouldn't you think?

The lamentable mistakes and clangers by the players that you mentioned is not isolated to the team we love, they all do it at some point - our problem is that we are liable to focus on St Kilda and ignore the fact that supporters of all the other teams will be saying the same stuff about their mob.

It seems to me that your philosophy is that when the team plays well and wins it's due to the players, yet when the team falls in a heap and loses it's OK to sink the boot into the coach....

Look, you obviously don't rate Ratten as a coach, full stop, and that's your prerogative. I'm not gushing over Ratts, but to me, if a coach doesn't have sufficient players capable of mastering the requisite skills for the AFL (and unlike you I believe that the expertise of St Kilda's coaching panel is no better or worse than most teams) then he is behind the proverbial eight ball to achieve better results consistently.

The only solution is to keep turning the list over until the club has a solid core of at the very least 10-12 quality players - at which stage we're in a position to make a fair judgment about Brett Ratten's coaching abilities. Quite obviously this is what the Board would have concluded when they extended his contract last week.

You have your perspectives on this matter Teflon, as do I, so we'll just have to agree to disagree....

[Life Long Saint]

This might explain some things

[evertonfc]

There was no real player development unde Richo either. Mr Carroll has a tough gig since joining the Saints for the 2022 season.

When does this player development occur, it doesn't really happen at training sessions the supporters attend as they appear to be more team orientated.

Training involves piss-farting around while doing drills and telling a few jokes and tickling each other while running laps and then they kick soccer balls around

Our training standards have been the worst in the AFL since 2012.

Things haven't improved. Every moment on the track is an opportunity to improve, individually and collectively. Honestly, I feel like we treat it as something we kinda should do but don't care if we do it well or not.

Our sub-par training has always been a bugbear of mine. We trained so different in the Ross Lyon era - doing the maximum work was the bare minimum expected. Training sessions were as fierce, if not fiercer, than match day - which is why we were so comfortable when the heat came; we lived it every day of the year.