Team vs Brisbane

[Teflon]

Agree with those who suggest Butlers had plenty chances
He better step has to hit scoreboard and do more than just “pressure”
I’m also not sold on Ratten obsession with small forward plan ….as others had noted Sharman draws a defender and kicks clutch goals
Lions will play their 3 talls
And not bringing Clarke in must be a match fitness thing cause skill wise he’s there automatically
Better hit the scoreboard Dan…

[Impatient Sainter]

The small forward thing is about holding the ball in the F50 and repeat F50 efforts. Butler & Higgins play much better when Long is also in the forward line. They feed off each others pressure and effort. Plus Freo's small forwards dominated Brisbane last week, so I think it is a smart move. Long will get Rich and Starcevich will most likely go to Higgins, so hopefully they can keep them accountable.

Brisbane have a shorter defence with Gardiner and Adams only 192cms tall, so our 3 x tall forwards, plus rotating Wood & Owens will stretch them in any event.

[ace]

This is the team you select if you absolutely want the best chance of winning.
Plenty of other matches to use to get games into younger players.

[bigcarl]

Disappointed that Clark has not come back/ can't get in before Butler. Have to wonder what the long term holds for him now.

Must be match conditioning and fitness you’d think. He’s had two matches back interrupted by the bye and a bout of Covid. If he’s ready to go he’s a walk-up start imo.

On the plus side, he and Billings out of the side certainly puts pressure to perform on the incumbents,

[shanegrambeau]

My ideal 22 and all of our ideal 22s for the next 2 years will not be the ideal 22 for this week in Brisbane - accepted.

I have love Butler this year, for his persisting.

And Long, for his control.

Neither have done much.

Both a second behind the play.

But touches..

And I love Long's long passes.

I can't see how they push out Sharman.

I can't see how Webster pushes out Highmore...

Or Battle pushes out Lienert..but i love Battle's grunt.

We have noted on this forum that Hunter is a skinny runt this year, compared to before.

I think it has something to do with it.

he is an absolute gem. a chunk of gold.

As is NWM.

So here we go.

up to Brissy with a (IMO) sub-par team

[WellardSaint]

Butler had a breakout year in 2020.
Fans and Supercoach adherents wondered why the Tigers let him go.
Well, if he brings nothing but 'pressure' and no goals, during the finals, he'll get traded to the Suns.
2 yrs ago, in the Noosa hub, he was in his element in the ocean, surfing when not at training.
Qld will suit his lifestyle.

Ratts still dreams of his asst coaching days at the Hawks, with Rioli running riot.
Also seeing the Tigers during their flag years, having small forwards slicing through defences.

I know Butler works his ring off, but he's been worked out, his tricks no longer confound defenders.
He's not Cyril Rioli, he's not Milney, so maybe we need to let him go, and put time into Sharman, and playing Hayes after the rehab.
2 big talls to draw a defender away from Max.

[spert]

Butler had a breakout year in 2020.
Fans and Supercoach adherents wondered why the Tigers let him go.
Well, if he brings nothing but 'pressure' and no goals, during the finals, he'll get traded to the Suns.
2 yrs ago, in the Noosa hub, he was in his element in the ocean, surfing when not at training.
Qld will suit his lifestyle.

Ratts still dreams of his asst coaching days at the Hawks, with Rioli running riot.
Also seeing the Tigers during their flag years, having small forwards slicing through defences.

I know Butler works his ring off, but he's been worked out, his tricks no longer confound defenders.
He's not Cyril Rioli, he's not Milney, so maybe we need to let him go, and put time into Sharman, and playing Hayes after the rehab.
2 big talls to draw a defender away from Max.

Butler is very skillful, but he got dropped to the VFL at Richmond as he wasn't kicking goals as a small forward. He and Higgins need to be hitting the scoreboard in this game, as I think the Lions will be blanketing Max now that Sharman is out.

[SaintPav]

It has been glaringly obvious that we have missed goals the last few games because of a lack of small forwards.

If Higgins played against Norf, Saints would have won by 80+ points.

[samoht]

Lonie was kicking more goals than Butler ... so he better bring that much-touted pressure of his and stick those ruddy tackles.

[meher baba]

I can’t recall a player more overrated by fans in my time than is Cooper Sharman.

Armitage came close at times. I’m sure there are others I’m struggling to recall.

[The_Dud]

Butler really needs to hit the scoreboard and Higgins needs to kick straight, otherwise they might be some costly 'ins'

A bit disappointed NWM is out, but hopefully just a rest and he'll be back soon.

[samoht]

I can’t recall a player more overrated by fans in my time than is Cooper Sharman.

Armitage came close at times. I’m sure there are others I’m struggling to recall.

I dont think anyone is over-rating him, just comparing what he brings structure-wise vs what yet another small forward would bring.

[Saintmike65]

Butler really needs to hit the scoreboard and Higgins needs to kick straight, otherwise they might be some costly 'ins'

A bit disappointed NWM is out, but hopefully just a rest and he'll be back soon.

He’s in the mix for medical sub you’d think!

[older saint]

Must reward form - Butler kicked 5 , yes in the reserves but also 23 touches as a forward. Sharman 2 weeks of at best OK performance.
With Membrey , King, Marshall/Ryder the 2-3 smalls i think are better and help lock the ball in better than another tall.

Look for Long to go to Rich in a defensive pressure role ( hopefully better than he did on Duncan). Everytime they exit they look to use Rich so have Long sit on him

[saynta]

My ideal 22 and all of our ideal 22s for the next 2 years will not be the ideal 22 for this week in Brisbane - accepted.

I have love Butler this year, for his persisting.

And Long, for his control.

Neither have done much.

Both a second behind the play.

But touches..

And I love Long's long passes.

I can't see how they push out Sharman.

I can't see how Webster pushes out Highmore...

Or Battle pushes out Lienert..but i love Battle's grunt.

We have noted on this forum that Hunter is a skinny runt this year, compared to before.

I think it has something to do with it.

he is an absolute gem. a chunk of gold.

As is NWM.

So here we go.

up to Brissy with a (IMO) sub-par team

Rubbish, IMHFO.

[meher baba]

I can’t recall a player more overrated by fans in my time than is Cooper Sharman.

Armitage came close at times. I’m sure there are others I’m struggling to recall.

I dont think anyone is over-rating him, just comparing what he brings structure-wise vs what yet another small forward would bring.

Higgins in 2022: 8 games, 93 possessions, 16 goals, 14 behinds, 5 goal assists (not an especially reliable stat, but whatever), 11 tackles
Butler in 2022: 8 games, 77 possessions, only 5 goals, 3 behinds, 6 goal assists and 36 tackles
Sharman in 2022: 3 games, 25 possessions, 3 goals, 1 behind, 0 goal assists and 4 tackles
(NB: Sharman officially played 4 games, but one was as a medi-sub and he never got on the field. Personally I don't think that should count any more as playing a game than being a twelfth man counts as playing a test match)

It seems to me that Higgins and Butler each bring a lot more to the table than Sharman, apart from Sharman's alleged role as a decoy runner for King, which has been less apparent to me than to many on SS. Sure, ideally Higgins could tackle more and Butler could kick a few more goals. But Sharman in his 3 games this year has laid very few tackles, hasn't set up any goals and has averaged only a goal a game (great for a soccer forward, but nothing special for an AFL forward).

If he was that important structure-wise, he would have been kept in the team against the Lions. But it's funny: the low impact players that Ross Lyon kept in the side purely for structural reasons (Dempster as a forward in 2009, Eddy in 2010) never attracted many fans on SS. Why on earth is Sharman so popular?

[meher baba]

My ideal 22 and all of our ideal 22s for the next 2 years will not be the ideal 22 for this week in Brisbane - accepted.

I have love Butler this year, for his persisting.

And Long, for his control.

Neither have done much.

Both a second behind the play.

But touches..

And I love Long's long passes.

I can't see how they push out Sharman.

I can't see how Webster pushes out Highmore...

Or Battle pushes out Lienert..but i love Battle's grunt.

We have noted on this forum that Hunter is a skinny runt this year, compared to before.

I think it has something to do with it.

he is an absolute gem. a chunk of gold.

As is NWM.

So here we go.

up to Brissy with a (IMO) sub-par team

Rubbish, IMHFO.

Yep, I agree with you.

As the stats I have quoted above indicate, Butler has "done much" this year in terms of laying tackles. He's also scored, or assisted, in 11 goals in 8 games (in one of which he went off injured), which is less than one would like, but we had some good wins with him in the team.. I've never seen any signs of him being behind the play. Long has also mostly been a reasonably good contributor, except against the Crows when he totally sucked. He too generally appears to be up with the play, although his decision-making has never been as good as I'd like. I've already had my say re Sharman and what he has to offer.

Webster and Highmore are different types of players. Webster's can do things that most other defenders can't: collecting wayward ground balls, touching the ball out of bounds and preventing marks inside 50, kicking the ball out of danger when surrounded by opponents. Because he revels in these high pressure situations, he often looks awkward and mistake-prone. But those who criticise him should watch the full replay of a few games and focus on how he does things that lead to break downs of attacks.

As far as I can see, the best role for Highmore is CHB, but we've already got a better player there in Battle. I certainly wouldn't suggest playing Lienert at CHB, which this poster seems to prefer.

I don't agree that we are playing a sub-par team in Brisbane. We needed more experienced players coming into the team, and Higgins and Butler will both give their all. Ideally IMO, Billings would be playing as well (especially as we appear to be one wingman down), but the club are clearly very impressed with Windhager and Owens at the moment and I support their choices.

[shanegrambeau]

My ideal 22 and all of our ideal 22s for the next 2 years will not be the ideal 22 for this week in Brisbane - accepted.

I have love Butler this year, for his persisting.

And Long, for his control.

Neither have done much.

Both a second behind the play.

But touches..

And I love Long's long passes.

I can't see how they push out Sharman.

I can't see how Webster pushes out Highmore...

Or Battle pushes out Lienert..but i love Battle's grunt.

We have noted on this forum that Hunter is a skinny runt this year, compared to before.

I think it has something to do with it.

he is an absolute gem. a chunk of gold.

As is NWM.

So here we go.

up to Brissy with a (IMO) sub-par team

Rubbish, IMHFO.

Yep, I agree with you.

As the stats I have quoted above indicate, Butler has "done much" this year in terms of laying tackles. He's also scored, or assisted, in 11 goals in 8 games (in one of which he went off injured), which is less than one would like, but we had some good wins with him in the team.. I've never seen any signs of him being behind the play. Long has also mostly been a reasonably good contributor, except against the Crows when he totally sucked. He too generally appears to be up with the play, although his decision-making has never been as good as I'd like. I've already had my say re Sharman and what he has to offer.

Webster and Highmore are different types of players. Webster's can do things that most other defenders can't: collecting wayward ground balls, touching the ball out of bounds and preventing marks inside 50, kicking the ball out of danger when surrounded by opponents. Because he revels in these high pressure situations, he often looks awkward and mistake-prone. But those who criticise him should watch the full replay of a few games and focus on how he does things that lead to break downs of attacks.

As far as I can see, the best role for Highmore is CHB, but we've already got a better player there in Battle. I certainly wouldn't suggest playing Lienert at CHB, which this poster seems to prefer.

I don't agree that we are playing a sub-par team in Brisbane. We needed more experienced players coming into the team, and Higgins and Butler will both give their all. Ideally IMO, Billings would be playing as well (especially as we appear to be one wingman down), but the club are clearly very impressed with Windhager and Owens at the moment and I support their choices.

Nice analysis!

I particularly like the breakdown of what Webster brings, and yes, he does look untidy - not silky, but what you said makes sense!

Can you speak a little about the difference between Lienert and Highmore?...and how they stack up against tne options we have?

[SunnyErnie]

My ideal 22 and all of our ideal 22s for the next 2 years will not be the ideal 22 for this week in Brisbane - accepted.

I have love Butler this year, for his persisting.

And Long, for his control.

Neither have done much.

Both a second behind the play.

But touches..

And I love Long's long passes.

I can't see how they push out Sharman.

I can't see how Webster pushes out Highmore...

Or Battle pushes out Lienert..but i love Battle's grunt.

We have noted on this forum that Hunter is a skinny runt this year, compared to before.

I think it has something to do with it.

he is an absolute gem. a chunk of gold.

As is NWM.

So here we go.

up to Brissy with a (IMO) sub-par team

Rubbish, IMHFO.

Yep, I agree with you.

As the stats I have quoted above indicate, Butler has "done much" this year in terms of laying tackles. He's also scored, or assisted, in 11 goals in 8 games (in one of which he went off injured), which is less than one would like, but we had some good wins with him in the team.. I've never seen any signs of him being behind the play. Long has also mostly been a reasonably good contributor, except against the Crows when he totally sucked. He too generally appears to be up with the play, although his decision-making has never been as good as I'd like. I've already had my say re Sharman and what he has to offer.

Webster and Highmore are different types of players. Webster's can do things that most other defenders can't: collecting wayward ground balls, touching the ball out of bounds and preventing marks inside 50, kicking the ball out of danger when surrounded by opponents. Because he revels in these high pressure situations, he often looks awkward and mistake-prone. But those who criticise him should watch the full replay of a few games and focus on how he does things that lead to break downs of attacks.

As far as I can see, the best role for Highmore is CHB, but we've already got a better player there in Battle. I certainly wouldn't suggest playing Lienert at CHB, which this poster seems to prefer.

I don't agree that we are playing a sub-par team in Brisbane. We needed more experienced players coming into the team, and Higgins and Butler will both give their all. Ideally IMO, Billings would be playing as well (especially as we appear to be one wingman down), but the club are clearly very impressed with Windhager and Owens at the moment and I support their choices.

Nice analysis!

I particularly like the breakdown of what Webster brings, and yes, he does look untidy - not silky, but what you said makes sense!

Can you speak a little about the difference between Lienert and Highmore?...and how they stack up against tne options we have?

I would be replacing Webster with Highmore. We need his intercepting more than we need Webster's long kicking!!!

[The Fireman]

loving the depth

[bigcarl]

loving the depth

Me too, but it’s because we’re winning. One loss exposes holes everywhere

[The Fireman]

loving the depth

Me too, but it’s because we’re winning. One loss exposes holes everywhere

I think we have the depth regardless ... Ratts now has the luxury of selecting horses for courses even if we had of been losing.
The only tough part for him at times is who he has to drop you only have to look at the increasing conversation on here.

love it.

[spert]

Ratts and his mates would have had a close look at how Freo beat Brisbane, and our team selection will reflect this. Watching a bit of the Freo v Bris game, I think though that Freo have a midfield edge over us, but then Brisbane didn't put a lot of defensive pressure on and it allowed Freo to link up going forward a bit too easy. I think our backline is tougher than Brisbane's backline.

[WellardSaint]

Ratts and his mates would have had a close look at how Freo beat Brisbane, and our team selection will reflect this. Watching a bit of the Freo v Bris game, I think though that Freo have a midfield edge over us, but then Brisbane didn't put a lot of defensive pressure on and it allowed Freo to link up going forward a bit too easy. I think our backline is tougher than Brisbane's backline.

The Docker who got dropped for having a bevy or 2, Fredericks, his 3 goals were scored when he was on his own, with no Lion within cooee. Rich was in the next postcode.
Fagan won't make that mistake twice

[samoht]

Higgins in 2022: 8 games, 93 possessions, 16 goals, 14 behinds, 5 goal assists (not an especially reliable stat, but whatever), 11 tackles
Butler in 2022: 8 games, 77 possessions, only 5 goals, 3 behinds, 6 goal assists and 36 tackles
Sharman in 2022: 3 games, 25 possessions, 3 goals, 1 behind, 0 goal assists and 4 tackles

I think we all agree with Higgins coming straight back in - so the comparison should probably be Sharman vs Butler (a tall forward vs a small one).
The stats show that Butler got a lot more game time this year than did Sharman ... Sharman only averaged 55% game time - I think we need to take this into account.

So his stats were averaged out over 4 games, as you've pointed out when he only played 3 in effect (as he was a medi-sub and didn't take any part in that one game) - which results in his 55% game-time average (vs an 81.9% game-time ave. for Butler).

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 1=S&fid2=S