Membrey and Butler

[Teflon]

OMG, are we hanging a forward pocket on metres gained?

Butler did not lose us last night's game. Look at the blokes with the most behinds next to their names. If they kicked half straight, we win.

Miss the point????
Butler hasn’t hit the scoreboard in weeks
Whike you’re winning that gets glossed over
When you can’t buy a goal like last night and you have a crumbing small forward, whose job is also to kick goals, get busy ???
It can’t be King/Higgins every week is the point

I think you'll find the coaches have kicking goals as a third or fourth priority for Butler.

Not everyone's role is to hit the scoreboard in a big way.

Again concede he is under pressure and could well make way for someone like Byrnes, Jones or Billings. It won't be Sharman though.

Yes yes have heard as nauseum the “he’s doing other things goals less important” blah blah
Facts are last night we needed goals
I don’t accept Butler is just a pressure specialist that’s his role it’s 1 dimensional - he’s a forward he needs to score. Does he need to be the main man? No does he need to at least appear dangerous?? Absolutely
Best “pressure” a forward can apply to opponents is to score - see Ginnivane at Pies..

[nostalgicsaint]

You seam to hear but not listen and comprehend.

1. Both Butler and Membrey are proven goal scorers who also bring other aspects to the game.
2. Butler is right on the fringe of the team based on recent results and may well get dropped.
3. Membrey had one average (not poor) game and remains one of the first picked players each week.
4. Sharman is not the answer at this stage as he isn't able to play a role like Butler and membrey is miles ahead. In addition there are 5 to 10 players ahead of him and he has significant gaps in his game.

[saynta]

Any which way you want to look at it, Butler will be making way this week for Billings.

[nostalgicsaint]

Any which way you want to look at it, Butler will be making way this week for Billings.

This is a very good chance of being the most accurate comment in this thread.

[Teflon]

I'm glad you concede its about mix.

As mentioned there have been weeks where membrey and Butler have been the goal scorers.

Again if you want to be critical of someone not doing their job. Look to the players who are average at pressure AND miss their shots when the time comes.

Butler and Membrey are much more reliable with and without the ball.

(I'm not advocating for criticism of King or Higgins either- they'll come good)

I don’t agree that Dan Butler gets a free pass cause he tackles lots - he needs to be dangerous on the scoreboard and not just in games when it’s over /we coast

Membrey has more credits I agree (more games like last night when the heat is on and he’ll be criticised and rightly so)

I think King/Higgins are getting plenty of heat tightly so

Who is giving him a free pass? Multiple times it's been conceded he is under pressure. Only comments I see is that he has, to date, held his spot based on other attributes and that Sharman wouldn't be a good alternative.

I think he’s auto selected every week Butler - suggests to me he’s getting a rails run to me?? Why?
And I e never said Sharman is a like for like for Butler?
Maybe it’s a forward line in future (Ryder is 304 years old and won’t go forever..) where resting rucks don’t feature and Membrey and Sharman do with Long replacing Butler?
Point is when heat is on I suspect Dan crumbles
As noted Membrey has credits but he wouldn’t want to string to many of last nights games together ..
Anyway Melb , Cats Lions et al all to come so we’ll get a much much better read about “pressure” and being able to score…

[nostalgicsaint]

When heat is on... Dan in close games (2020 to now decided by 12 points or less)

North by 2 points 0.1
Freo by 6 points 1.0
Saints by 4 points vs GC 4.1
Lions by 2 points 2.0
Melb by 3 points 0.0
Saints beat dogs 3 points. 1.1
Saints beat gws 8 points 1.0
Saints beat gc by 9 points 0.3
Syd by 9 points 1.0
Adelaide by 6 points 1.1
Saints beat pies by 9 points 1.1
Wce by 8 2.0
Saints beat freo by 10 points. 1.0
Power by 1 point 0.0


I'd say he's had some credits and some runs on the board for a small forward who also brings pressure.

Probably still out this week for Billings or Brynes.

[Teflon]

You seam to hear but not listen and comprehend.

1. Both Butler and Membrey are proven goal scorers who also bring other aspects to the game.
2. Butler is right on the fringe of the team based on recent results and may well get dropped.
3. Membrey had one average (not poor) game and remains one of the first picked players each week.
4. Sharman is not the answer at this stage as he isn't able to play a role like Butler and membrey is miles ahead. In addition there are 5 to 10 players ahead of him and he has significant gaps in his game.

You seem to state your opinion’s as facts and expect all just to agree …it’s odd

1. Butler is 6th for goals this year behind Hayes and just ahead of Ryder ….hardly proven (at Tigers he had 1 good goal year then went missing….has done it with us too)
2. Membrey is 28 - (my view) will we win a flag with Tim Membrey in the side? I can’t see it. We look 7-10 again like 2020
3. Sharmans “game gaps” weren’t apparent late last year when he walked into an AFL side with immediate impact (who knows maybe if he can’t get a game he’ll shine at a Hawks or Cats? ) ….soon as he’s in “Saints development” he’s got all these “gaps”….lol we are good at devepment…not

[Teflon]

When heat is on... Dan in close games (2020 to now decided by 12 points or less)

North by 2 points 0.1
Freo by 6 points 1.0
Saints by 4 points vs GC 4.1
Lions by 2 points 2.0
Melb by 3 points 0.0
Saints beat dogs 3 points. 1.1
Saints beat gws 8 points 1.0
Saints beat gc by 9 points 0.3
Syd by 9 points 1.0
Adelaide by 6 points 1.1
Saints beat pies by 9 points 1.1
Wce by 8 2.0
Saints beat freo by 10 points. 1.0
Power by 1 point 0.0


I'd say he's had some credits and some runs on the board for a small forward who also brings pressure.

Probably still out this week for Billings or Brynes.

Probably easier just to see how his goals are travelling from 2020 to now ?

2020 - 1.53 Avg
2021 - 0.82
2022 - 0.71

Trend not looking great…maybe Tigers saw something we didn’t ? But nice that you concede he’s not doing enough and is under pressure

[nostalgicsaint]

You keep changing your criteria.

First we were too small.
Then pressure isn't everything
Then he doesn't have an impact in pressure games
Now we're back to only goals matter.

Again the point is mute, he is under pressure and likely to be dropped. Just not for Sharman.

[Teflon]

You keep changing your criteria.

First we were too small.
Then pressure isn't everything
Then he doesn't have an impact in pressure games
Now we're back to only goals matter.

Again the point is mute, he is under pressure and likely to be dropped. Just not for Sharman.

Show me my post where I stated we were too small ???
What criteria are you reading ?? - bizarre you accuse others of not reading but appear to have a healthy dose of double standards ????

I started the thread stating we need GOALS from Butler (and Membrey but concede he’s got credits) to add to real opposition pressure so it’s not all Higgins/King - especially, as we saw last night, when they have off nights (and they will). I don’t think that’s hard to understand or controversial??

I’ve not changed that position (why would I?) - pressure alone is not everything (see Ginnivan at Pies going at 2.3 goal average…..I think he’s putting pressure on by hitting the scoreboard???). You seem intent to hide behind “Dans doing pressure things” as if that justifies his ongoing selection. I disagree completely- don’t care what rhetoric the coach puts out (he’s got to justify his selections)

You stated he’s a proven goal scorer - facts are he’s goal scoring power is declining by the season??????

Again, reading what you want??? Pot kettle black.

[nostalgicsaint]

You're quite right it wasn't you who stated we were too small.

Ironic mistake on my part as you point out.

That leaves really the only debate about who comes in for Butler as you have conceded members has credit and I've conceded Butler is likely to be dropped just not for Sharman.

[bangaulegend]

I said this before the game that it was a real grind for us to beat GWS last week & Port had a walk over against W/C. In greasy tough conditions in Cairns & we didn't make the most of our early dominance hence IMO we ran out of gas struggled to get to the contest when the game was on the line . Next week we will already be suffering some sort of fatigue due to the nature of the conditions in Cairns so a few changes are required just to keep us refreshed & give our blokes a decent chance to give Melbourne a run for their money next weekend.

[Trev from the Bush]

I try not to participate in tit for tat personal opinion-type threads.

It is so formulated - 5(very good wins) - 1(1 point loss) = crap thread

[Vortex]

Gee it's getting bat shyte crazy now, drop Members for Sharman is hilarious and surely taking the p1ss.

Sharman is barely holding his spot at Sandy from all accounts.

We are one tall forward short and it is going to be our Achilles heal and weakness that sides will exploit. Hayes was a massive loss.

[WellardSaint]

Any which way you want to look at it, Butler will be making way this week for Billings.

Richo, and now Ratten, seem to have a weird set of criteria for picking guys.
Who knows, the Fwds coach could have Butler achieving most of his numbers, apart from scores.
Nobody outside the inner sanctum knows these 'numbers', they're as secretive as the Freemasons.

[Teflon]

I try not to participate in tit for tat personal opinion-type threads.

It is so formulated - 5(very good wins) - 1(1 point loss) = crap thread

I think we’re all thankful for that..

[Ghost Like]

OMG, are we hanging a forward pocket on metres gained?

Butler did not lose us last night's game. Look at the blokes with the most behinds next to their names. If they kicked half straight, we win.

Miss the point????
Butler hasn’t hit the scoreboard in weeks
Whike you’re winning that gets glossed over
When you can’t buy a goal like last night and you have a crumbing small forward, whose job is also to kick goals, get busy ???
It can’t be King/Higgins every week is the point

You are ranting about Butler & Membrey. Last night wasn't about buying a goal, that suggests we had no chances. The point is that players will benefit by the pressure applied by others. Higgins has benefited, as has King & Gresham, because their possessions are the result of turnovers from pressure. The least we can ask for is for them to kick accurately.

Once the likes of King, Gresham & Higgins apply the equal pressure of Membrey & Butler and then those two squander opportunities given, then, maybe criticise their return.

Our loss was about inaccuracy, not opportunity.

[Teflon]

Gee it's getting bat shyte crazy now, drop Members for Sharman is hilarious and surely taking the p1ss.

Sharman is barely holding his spot at Sandy from all accounts.

We are one tall forward short and it is going to be our Achilles heal and weakness that sides will exploit. Hayes was a massive loss.

Agree on Hayes as a big loss
On last nights form if we continue to bomb to King May/Lever for Dees will take record number of marks picking us off
Marshall to May have to keep him honest
Membrey (and Butler) MUST hit the scoreboard
Can’t be Higgins/King focussed only against Dees
King needs to lead also

[SunnyErnie]

Membrey would likely be top 10 in our best and fairest right now.

Butler has been saved by his pressure but agree is right on the edge of the side right now.

The obsession with Sharman is ridiculous.

Players in the VFL ahead of him include the below.

Byrnes
Billings
Jones
Highmore
Owens

And arguably
Heath
Allison
Connelly

Allison arguably ahead of Sharman.

[Teflon]

OMG, are we hanging a forward pocket on metres gained?

Butler did not lose us last night's game. Look at the blokes with the most behinds next to their names. If they kicked half straight, we win.

Miss the point????
Butler hasn’t hit the scoreboard in weeks
Whike you’re winning that gets glossed over
When you can’t buy a goal like last night and you have a crumbing small forward, whose job is also to kick goals, get busy ???
It can’t be King/Higgins every week is the point

You are ranting about Butler & Membrey. Last night wasn't about buying a goal, that suggests we had no chances. The point is that players will benefit by the pressure applied by others. Higgins has benefited, as has King & Gresham, because their possessions are the result of turnovers from pressure. The least we can ask for is for them to kick accurately.

Once the likes of King, Gresham & Higgins apply the equal pressure of Membrey & Butler and then those two squander opportunities given, then, maybe criticise their return.

Our loss was about inaccuracy, not opportunity.

If our only 2 genuine avenues to goal have a bad night (and they will continue to do this on occasion)
And everyone else “pressures” but no one else scores
Who kicks the goals??
I mean ffs it’s still a game where if I kick more goals than you I win?
Point is : we all KNOW inaccuracy cost us the game - that’s a given. This threads about spreading that load for those times these events occur and anyone watching us knows it’s not a 1 off that King/Higgins get the yips
By the way - Membrey was thoroughly spanked by Allir last night to the point where Allir knew Membrey wasn’t impacting the scoreboard so ge could afford to run off him
That won’t do against Dees, Lions, Swabs etc

[bangaulegend]

Ernies back

[SunnyErnie]

OMG, are we hanging a forward pocket on metres gained?

Butler did not lose us last night's game. Look at the blokes with the most behinds next to their names. If they kicked half straight, we win.

Miss the point????
Butler hasn’t hit the scoreboard in weeks
Whike you’re winning that gets glossed over
When you can’t buy a goal like last night and you have a crumbing small forward, whose job is also to kick goals, get busy ???
It can’t be King/Higgins every week is the point

You are ranting about Butler & Membrey. Last night wasn't about buying a goal, that suggests we had no chances. The point is that players will benefit by the pressure applied by others. Higgins has benefited, as has King & Gresham, because their possessions are the result of turnovers from pressure. The least we can ask for is for them to kick accurately.

Once the likes of King, Gresham & Higgins apply the equal pressure of Membrey & Butler and then those two squander opportunities given, then, maybe criticise their return.

Our loss was about inaccuracy, not opportunity.

If our only 2 genuine avenues to goal have a bad night (and they will continue to do this on occasion)
And everyone else “pressures” but no one else scores
Who kicks the goals??
I mean ffs it’s still a game where if I kick more goals than you I win?
Point is : we all KNOW inaccuracy cost us the game - that’s a given. This threads about spreading that load for those times these events occur and anyone watching us knows it’s not a 1 off that King/Higgins get the yips
By the way - Membrey was thoroughly spanked by Allir last night to the point where Allir knew Membrey wasn’t impacting the scoreboard so ge could afford to run off him
That won’t do against Dees, Lions, Swabs etc

This is why I came up with suggestion to package up Membrey with our third pick and see if we can get a late FRDP. It’s at least worth consideration!!!

[Scollop]

Higgins has benefited, as has King & Gresham, because their possessions are the result of turnovers from pressure. The least we can ask for is for them to kick accurately.

Once the likes of King, Gresham & Higgins apply the equal pressure of Membrey & Butler and then those two squander opportunities given, then, maybe criticise their return.

Our loss was about inaccuracy, not opportunity.

Well said

[Ghost Like]

OMG, are we hanging a forward pocket on metres gained?

Butler did not lose us last night's game. Look at the blokes with the most behinds next to their names. If they kicked half straight, we win.

Miss the point????
Butler hasn’t hit the scoreboard in weeks
Whike you’re winning that gets glossed over
When you can’t buy a goal like last night and you have a crumbing small forward, whose job is also to kick goals, get busy ???
It can’t be King/Higgins every week is the point

You are ranting about Butler & Membrey. Last night wasn't about buying a goal, that suggests we had no chances. The point is that players will benefit by the pressure applied by others. Higgins has benefited, as has King & Gresham, because their possessions are the result of turnovers from pressure. The least we can ask for is for them to kick accurately.

Once the likes of King, Gresham & Higgins apply the equal pressure of Membrey & Butler and then those two squander opportunities given, then, maybe criticise their return.

Our loss was about inaccuracy, not opportunity.

If our only 2 genuine avenues to goal have a bad night (and they will continue to do this on occasion)
And everyone else “pressures” but no one else scores
Who kicks the goals??
I mean ffs it’s still a game where if I kick more goals than you I win?
Point is : we all KNOW inaccuracy cost us the game - that’s a given. This threads about spreading that load for those times these events occur and anyone watching us knows it’s not a 1 off that King/Higgins get the yips
By the way - Membrey was thoroughly spanked by Allir last night to the point where Allir knew Membrey wasn’t impacting the scoreboard so ge could afford to run off him
That won’t do against Dees, Lions, Swabs etc

Isn't the aim to create opportunity to score? Opportunities were created & ultimately squandered. Sadly we cannot pick who squanders them, last night it was King, Higgins and Gresham. When those work as hard to apply pressure as Butler and Membrey, then Butler and Membrey may get the opportunity to p!ss goals up against the wall.

I'd need to watch a replay, which I won't do, to be convinced Membrey was Aliir's opponent all night. I don't think he was so I don't think he should cop the criticism for Aliir's brilliant game. Perhaps those kicking into our forward line may wish to put their hands up???

[Teflon]

OMG, are we hanging a forward pocket on metres gained?

Butler did not lose us last night's game. Look at the blokes with the most behinds next to their names. If they kicked half straight, we win.

Miss the point????
Butler hasn’t hit the scoreboard in weeks
Whike you’re winning that gets glossed over
When you can’t buy a goal like last night and you have a crumbing small forward, whose job is also to kick goals, get busy ???
It can’t be King/Higgins every week is the point

You are ranting about Butler & Membrey. Last night wasn't about buying a goal, that suggests we had no chances. The point is that players will benefit by the pressure applied by others. Higgins has benefited, as has King & Gresham, because their possessions are the result of turnovers from pressure. The least we can ask for is for them to kick accurately.

Once the likes of King, Gresham & Higgins apply the equal pressure of Membrey & Butler and then those two squander opportunities given, then, maybe criticise their return.

Our loss was about inaccuracy, not opportunity.

If our only 2 genuine avenues to goal have a bad night (and they will continue to do this on occasion)
And everyone else “pressures” but no one else scores
Who kicks the goals??
I mean ffs it’s still a game where if I kick more goals than you I win?
Point is : we all KNOW inaccuracy cost us the game - that’s a given. This threads about spreading that load for those times these events occur and anyone watching us knows it’s not a 1 off that King/Higgins get the yips
By the way - Membrey was thoroughly spanked by Allir last night to the point where Allir knew Membrey wasn’t impacting the scoreboard so ge could afford to run off him
That won’t do against Dees, Lions, Swabs etc

Isn't the aim to create opportunity to score? Opportunities were created & ultimately squandered. Sadly we cannot pick who squanders them, last night it was King, Higgins and Gresham. When those work as hard to apply pressure as Butler and Membrey, then Butler and Membrey may get the opportunity to p!ss goals up against the wall.

I'd need to watch a replay, which I won't do, to be convinced Membrey was Aliir's opponent all night. I don't think he was so I don't think he should cop the criticism for Aliir's brilliant game. Perhaps those kicking into our forward line may wish to put their hands up???

So again (and please do feel free to ignore the question/point)
If our 2 main avenues to goal have an off night (even after having many opportunities created) does that mean that other forwards are totally excused from hitting the scoreboard??
Ratten said at halftime - we were too 1 dimensional??????
Isn’t the point to being unpredictable about having multiple forwards being dangerous abd offering you multiple avenues to goal??
I wouldn’t watch it again if I were you cause Allir roamed free up forward and Membrey didn’t even present as a viable goal scoring option
While in the second half “pressure Dan” was nowhere
Agree on kicks coming in - deplorable but again, we’re there other options leading up /presenting outside King trying to take miracle pack marks ???
If our plan is King/Higgins are our scorers
While Membrey (in fairness not his best game) and Butler just lay tackles/harass we are in trouble