a goal-kicking forward line

[rodgerfox]

I actually don't think he's a natural forward. He doesn't lead well, and needs to have a run at a pack to get into the contest. The good defenders don't give him this and he gets killed.

Nonsense. Whats wrong with his leading? - apart from the fact he gets to do it rarely because hes never had a genuine stint as a forward for any length of time...

As for 'getting a run at a pack' - thats something, that dependent on ball movement up field AND fwd 50 structure you can generate......

I now understand why you don't ever post about football.

He is slow. Particularly off the mark. That's why his leading is average.

You can't generate a run at a pack from the midfield. WTF???

You can if you don't have an opponent, you could do it all day in that case. If you do have an opponent, and they're any good, they don't allow it. Defenders even study which leg the forward leaps from, and play them from that side, negating the leap. The great forwards have been able to leap from both sides. Not only does Kosi only leap off one leg, he needs momentum going into a contest. Any defender simply won't allow this.

Kosi played the start of this year as a forward. He was woeful.

As for 1 positon players...theres plenty....Lade, Cox, Fevola, Scarlett etc etc - thats a myth. Ofcourse players need greater flexibility in todays game - they cant be Mick Nolans - BUT that doesnt mean that many are still not 1 position specialists.

Lade plays forward, aswell as in the ruck. Ditto Cox.

Fevola plays from the goal square, and at CHF. Most of his goals come from outside 50.

Scarlett is an AA FB, and was best on ground in a GF at CHB.

Being a specialist in position is fine, but if that's all you've got - you're in trouble. Sheedy picked up on this with Lloyd. Superstar FF, but needed to be able to play up the ground.


Kosi won the Rising Star at CHB with the goals in front of him. He dominated the comp for a patch in 05 as a ruckman. He has been poor as a forward.

I still don't know why we think he should play him there.

[bigcarl]

kosi takes a very good contested mark. with fraser and roo the delivery often has to be spot on. with kosi the option is there just to lob it in his vicinity.

imo this is very important to our chances this season and adds the missing dimension to our forward set-up.

plus, as others have said, he's never been given a real crack at a key forward position and the time to grow in the role.

if he's not given either ff or chf i fear we'll return to the same one-dimensional approach that has been found wanting in the past

[rodgerfox]

kosi takes a very good contested mark. with fraser and roo the delivery often has to be spot on. with kosi the option is there just to lob it in his vicinity.

He does - if he gets a good run at the ball.

As a key forward, good defenders rarely let this happen. You need to be able to lead fast or get a 1-2m break on your man so they can't impede your run at the contest. Kosi lacks the pace off the mark to get that break.

[bigcarl]

As a key forward, good defenders rarely let this happen. You need to be able to lead fast or get a 1-2m break on your man so they can't impede your run at the contest. Kosi lacks the pace off the mark to get that break.

well we'll agree to disagree on this dodger. let's hope we don't go back to the tried and failed set up that did not deliver enough goals last season. big mistake, imo

[rodgerfox]

let's hope we don't go back to the tried and failed set up that failed to kick enough goals last season. big mistake, imo

I don't think we should do that at all.

I just don't think Kosi should become a full time forward.

[bigcarl]

c: gram, dal santo, fiora
hf: bj, roo, gilbert
f: gehrig, kosi, milne

[plugger66]

c: gram, dal santo, fiora
hf: bj, roo, gilbert
f: gehrig, kosi, milne

Surely you could one more tall in there so it has no flexability at all.

[bigcarl]

Surely you could one more tall in there so it has no flexability at all.

what's wrong with tall? we have lots of good talls and should play to our strengths.

i like the idea of bj getting the opposition's fourth best tall defender and sam gilbert their fifth best ... and it leaves them little scope for triple-teaming roo.

we just switch the attack to someone else.

on any given day surely at least one of these six would kick a bag.

make the opposition match up on us, rather than us always reacting to them.

seems we want different things. you want "flexibility" and I want a forward line that can kick us winning scores.

[Saints94]

This is what you call a saints goal-kicking forward line:

HF: J.Kozchitke N.Riewoldt X.Clarke

FF: S.Milne F.Gehrig A.Schnieder

[awesome_days]

C: Gram Ball Goddard
HF: Dal Santo Koschitzke Riewoldt
F: Schneider Gherig Milne

Gram and Goddard can score from outside 50
Dal is skiled enough to hit G consistently & score himself
Riewoldt & Kosi to play essentially as twin CHF, isolating a weaker opponent (ie. Riewoldt runs one into the ground and Kosi smashes him in the contest when they change for a break)
Gherig is Gherig
Schneider & Milne are opportunistic & should complement each other

[bigcarl]

C: Gram Ball Goddard
HF: Dal Santo Koschitzke Riewoldt
F: Schneider Gherig Milne

Gram and Goddard can score from outside 50
Dal is skiled enough to hit G consistently & score himself
Riewoldt & Kosi to play essentially as twin CHF, isolating a weaker opponent (ie. Riewoldt runs one into the ground and Kosi smashes him in the contest when they change for a break)
Gherig is Gherig
Schneider & Milne are opportunistic & should complement each other

like it. dal would be good for a few from a flank for sure if we can spare him from the midfield. also the fact that gram and goddard are both terrific long kicks and can score from outside 50.

[awesome_days]

C: Gram Ball Goddard
HF: Dal Santo Koschitzke Riewoldt
F: Schneider Gherig Milne

Gram and Goddard can score from outside 50
Dal is skiled enough to hit G consistently & score himself
Riewoldt & Kosi to play essentially as twin CHF, isolating a weaker opponent (ie. Riewoldt runs one into the ground and Kosi smashes him in the contest when they change for a break)
Gherig is Gherig
Schneider & Milne are opportunistic & should complement each other

like it. dal would be good for a few from a flank for sure if we can spare him from the midfield. also the fact that gram and goddard are both terrific long kicks and can score from outside 50.

Dal is easy to free from the midfield, or use him with Monty in that position.

1st mid: Hayes Ball Montagna/Dal - Gram Goddard
2nd mid: Harvey Armitage X Clarke - Fiora Gilbert

[Quixote]

HF: Schnieder, Roo, Quick-Mid Rotation
F: Goddard, Kosi, Gehrig


With an emphasis on KEEPING THE BALL IN once we have lost possession.

Too many times this year it came out of there like a red leather bullet.

Perhaps stock your quicker players around the arc, hence the Quick-Mid Rotation position.

And probably hence why Jones will get games.


PS in one of Peanut's WOM training pictures, Brad Howard was leading a pack of runners, flanked by Armitage.

Has Howard bulked up or what?? Or were my eyes deceiving me...?

[plugger66]

Surely you could one more tall in there so it has no flexability at all.

what's wrong with tall? we have lots of good talls and should play to our strengths.

i like the idea of bj getting the opposition's fourth best tall defender and sam gilbert their fifth best ... and it leaves them little scope for triple-teaming roo.

we just switch the attack to someone else.

on any given day surely at least one of these six would kick a bag.

make the opposition match up on us, rather than us always reacting to them.

seems we want different things. you want "flexibility" and I want a forward line that can kick us winning scores.

I actually want a forward line that can tackle when they dont have the ball. Not sure 5 talls can do that. These days you need no more than 3 talls or even 2. There are no pack marks anymore and less leading marks due to flooding so you need runners.

[Oh When the Saints]

plugger66 is spot on.

You need 3 smalls in your forwardline IMO.

Schneider, Milne and X. Clarke will provide that for us in '08.

[Armoooo]

plugger66 is spot on.

You need 3 smalls in your forwardline IMO.

Schneider, Milne and X. Clarke will provide that for us in '08.

Yeah 3 smalls, 2 talls and a medium would be the best set up IMO, I think 3 talls, 3 smalls will do until we find a medium forward....

[bigcarl]

Surely you could one more tall in there so it has no flexability at all.

what's wrong with tall? we have lots of good talls and should play to our strengths.

i like the idea of bj getting the opposition's fourth best tall defender and sam gilbert their fifth best ... and it leaves them little scope for triple-teaming roo.

we just switch the attack to someone else.

on any given day surely at least one of these six would kick a bag.

make the opposition match up on us, rather than us always reacting to them.

seems we want different things. you want "flexibility" and I want a forward line that can kick us winning scores.

I actually want a forward line that can tackle when they dont have the ball. Not sure 5 talls can do that. These days you need no more than 3 talls or even 2. There are no pack marks anymore and less leading marks due to flooding so you need runners.

gilbert can tackle and he is quick. would make the perfect forward defender imo. how about schneider milne and gilbert along with kosi, roo and fraser?

gilbert just adds that extra element of strength and height. the beauty of a guy like him is he can play virtually any position on the ground ... with the exception of ruck possibly.

quick enough to be an on-baller, strong and tall enough to play key position. and just because a guy is tall doesn't mean he's no use when it hits the turf.

importantly, he'd be one more bit of insurance that we don't direct every push forward at riewoldt and fall down across half forward as we have for several years now.

kosi, roo, fraser, gilbert gives you an aerially dominant forward line with a other two a couple of goal-sneaks thrown in

x-man doesn't kick enough goals, for mine. only about 15 or so last year from memory. whack him on half back imo

[bigcarl]

There are no pack marks anymore and less leading marks due to flooding so you need runners.

true, this is the current trend.

but football is a game of cycles and i predict that before too long an aerially dominant forward line that receives quick and direct ball movement will come along and blow flooding out of the water.

who knows. could be us in 2008. trendsetters.

if anyone deserves to knock geelong off its pedestal it is us. after the rivalry of the past few years it must burn in the guts of all our young stars that they've got a flag and we haven't.

but you might be right that five "talls" might be a bit excessive ... perhaps three - fraser, roo, kosi - gilbert (a tall who can play medium or tall) plus two pipsqueaks

and move it down there quickly FFS

[BAM! (shhhh)]

There are no pack marks anymore and less leading marks due to flooding so you need runners.

true, this is the current trend.

but football is a game of cycles and i predict that before too long an aerially dominant forward line that receives quick and direct ball movement will come along and blow flooding out of the water.

I've been thinking that for a while now... since the dismantling of the Brisbane three-peaters really. All it will take is a team to employ it successfully, and everyone will be doing it again.

We talk about the "modern game" having no palce for anything but leading forwards, but surely the 2001-03 Lions have to be the "pinnacle" of the modern era teamwise, and FF Lynch was a great 1-on-1 contested mark. Mal Michael was a great 1-on-1 shutdown guy. Brown would run around and cause havoc, but is a great 1-on-1 too.

It's where the Saints "bomb it long to G and Roo" mentality probably started - it's what Brisbane did.

The trend has been mobility, because Pavlich, Riewoldt, Brown, Hall, have been the dominant forwards since '04... 3 are CHF, and the other 2 while FF play leading games.

When a player makes their name with the contested mark (i.e. can take enough of them to kick 6 or 7 without the leading marks), this "trend" will dry up pretty fast.

[rodgerfox]

I've been thinking that for a while now... since the dismantling of the Brisbane three-peaters really. All it will take is a team to employ it successfully, and everyone will be doing it again.

We talk about the "modern game" having no palce for anything but leading forwards, but surely the 2001-03 Lions have to be the "pinnacle" of the modern era teamwise, and FF Lynch was a great 1-on-1 contested mark. Mal Michael was a great 1-on-1 shutdown guy. Brown would run around and cause havoc, but is a great 1-on-1 too.

It's where the Saints "bomb it long to G and Roo" mentality probably started - it's what Brisbane did.

The trend has been mobility, because Pavlich, Riewoldt, Brown, Hall, have been the dominant forwards since '04... 3 are CHF, and the other 2 while FF play leading games.

When a player makes their name with the contested mark (i.e. can take enough of them to kick 6 or 7 without the leading marks), this "trend" will dry up pretty fast.

You need to be able to score many ways.

Pack marks.
One on one contests.
Crumbing goals.
Midfield goals.
Running goals.

Brisbane did this. People tend to forget how good their midfield was and how good their small forwards such as Aker and McRae were.

This is the key - many angles to goals.

We also had this until injury crippled Kosi, Hamill, Ball and Lenny.

[bigcarl]

This is the key - many angles to goals.

agree. many reliable and consistent avenues to goal and it starts with having guys who can kick goals within goalkicking range.

guys who can dominate in the air are particularly handy ... you structure forward lines around them ... especially the type who can take contested marks a la brown, brereton, carey, lockett.

[Saints94]

My setup is the best and will kick goals for us to

[bigcarl]

My setup is the best and will kick goals for us to

thanks for your input, homey.

[Saints94]

My setup is the best and will kick goals for us to

thanks for your input, homey.

No probs

[yipper]

There is no doubt you now need variety and several angles to goals. But there is still room for a horses for courses mentality. Go tall against teams that have vertically challenged backlines i.e: Doggies, Dees, Blues etc. because there is no way they can contain you to a losing score as long as your midfield is on top. So, I reckon in some games next year - we will see 3-4 talls and others 2. But I would like to see maximum use of the good kicks in our team next year - Goddard, Gram, Kosi and Dal. And I recall one M.Gardner is a thumping kick to!! Kick goals from a long way out and really put your opposition in two minds - do we flood, or zone?? Oh what should we do??....