To every one that craps on about Lyon...

[Cairnsman]

Cairnsman - are you that simplistic that you judge coaches purely on how many flags they have won? I'm glad you weren't sitting on the panel to select any of our coaches. We may have ended up with Kevin Sheedy - who is a sad joke in the industry these days, and whom the game has well and truly gone past.

As for comparing Scott to Lyon in their first year. Let's see - Scott took over a list that had won 2 flags in the previous 4 years and hadn't missed a prelim final in that time. All their stars, bar Ablett, were still playing (Mooney on the decline) A great effort, as everyone expected them to drop down the ladder, but no greater than what say Ken Hinkley managed to do this year at Port AFAIC.

Lyon took over a list that had never made a GF let alone win one. Instead of doing what Scott did - that is encourage the boys to keep doing what they have been doing and tweek a few things here and there - Lyon radically changed everything about how we played. Everything! If you reckon a first year coach can do that and win a flag you're kidding yourself.

He changed the way the game is now played. The term frontal pressure came about because of how we played in 09. I don't care what that goose Malthouse says, he stole the game plan, modified it to his team's liking, and ran with it. Good on him. Good coaching, but don't try and claim you came up with it. Ask anyone involved in the industry, and most will agree that Lyon completely changed the way the game is now played. In over 35 years of watching and playing the game, I had never seen anything like 09, where a good (not great) team was able to completely dominate a season, based almost solely on how they played the game and the tactics employed. Other clubs simply couldn't get a handle on it.

It takes all sorts of things to win a flag. We were unlucky in both, but Lyon can't control everything the players do - they are human. Missing goals from the goal square can't be coached. We lost two GF's against teams with superior lists by small margains. Lyon has another team in a GF with avastly inferior list. In my opinion they will win because of the way he has them playing.

I am a little simplistic and it's why I probably agree with most of your post but to be fair to me you have probably missed the times where I have said I really rate Lyon but I really rate coaches that win flags also and especially ones that win them with teams that they have lead from a re-build like Clarko and Malthouse. Lyon is very good and this time next week he could be a premiership coach which will make him great however until he wins one there will always be a question mark over his ability to get a team to win on the last day in September and that question mark will grow massively if he loses next week.

It shouldnt grow if he doesnt win it. The Hawks should be favourites and i reckon they would be even bigger favourites if RL wasnt coaching. This froum will be in melt down either way on Saturday noght. If Freo lose he will be the chocker to the RL haters and the ones who rate him will just say the hawks have the better list which IMO they clearly do. if Freo win the RL haters will say freo had the best list and the likers will say he is clearly the best coach in the AFL.

Losing 4 grandfinals without having won one would have to be some kind of record you would think and that surely will give the scribes something to write about. Some of his biggest mistakes have been made on the last day in September so surely the question mark will be raised about his ability to coach on Grand Final day.

[plugger66]

I am a little simplistic and it's why I probably agree with most of your post but to be fair to me you have probably missed the times where I have said I really rate Lyon but I really rate coaches that win flags also and especially ones that win them with teams that they have lead from a re-build like Clarko and Malthouse. Lyon is very good and this time next week he could be a premiership coach which will make him great however until he wins one there will always be a question mark over his ability to get a team to win on the last day in September and that question mark will grow massively if he loses next week.

It shouldnt grow if he doesnt win it. The Hawks should be favourites and i reckon they would be even bigger favourites if RL wasnt coaching. This froum will be in melt down either way on Saturday noght. If Freo lose he will be the chocker to the RL haters and the ones who rate him will just say the hawks have the better list which IMO they clearly do. if Freo win the RL haters will say freo had the best list and the likers will say he is clearly the best coach in the AFL.

Losing 4 grandfinals without having won one would have to some kind of record you would think and that surely will give the scribes something to write about. Some of his biggest mistakes have been made on the last day in September so surely the question mark has to be raised about his ability to coach on Grand Final day.

Every losing coach makes mistakes GF day but amazingly winning ones dont which is obviously untrue. Funny but i thought RL clearly outcoached MM in the first GF in 2010. And the players were stuffed in the second one.

[Cairnsman]

[quote="plugger66]

It shouldnt grow if he doesnt win it. The Hawks should be favourites and i reckon they would be even bigger favourites if RL wasnt coaching. This froum will be in melt down either way on Saturday noght. If Freo lose he will be the chocker to the RL haters and the ones who rate him will just say the hawks have the better list which IMO they clearly do. if Freo win the RL haters will say freo had the best list and the likers will say he is clearly the best coach in the AFL.

Losing 4 grandfinals without having won one would have to some kind of record you would think and that surely will give the scribes something to write about. Some of his biggest mistakes have been made on the last day in September so surely the question mark has to be raised about his ability to coach on Grand Final day.

Every losing coach makes mistakes GF day but amazingly winning ones dont which is obviously untrue. Funny but i thought RL clearly outcoached MM in the first GF in 2010. And the players were stuffed in the second one.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

And you could debate the for and against until the cows come home but I reckon after 4 attempts without a win the excuses would be harder to deflect...so we'll see what happens next week. Like I keep saying it is going to be a cracker and it is the best of the offensive versus the best of the defensive. If Lyon wins I will be happy for him. I reckon he is a good coach and it would be a shame if he didn't win one.

[whiskers3614]

Very magnanimous of you Cairnsman.
If Freo wins you won't see me here till the pre-season
On the other hand.............................
Christmas in September!

[Cairnsman]

I'm not sure what monogamy has got to do with anything...I just love footy

[whiskers3614]

Magnanimous...generous of spirit. forgiving
opposite of bitter & twisted and vengeful.

[Spinner]

He wasn't getting the best at of our list .. SW matched him in his first year as a coach without Dawson and with significant injuries to Gwilt and Fisher,i.e., a weakened and unsettled backline. We also lost a few very close games under SW and could have easily won 15 games.

Well he is a better coach then in your opinion. Mine is that RL is the best coach in the AFL win lose or draw on Saturday. I would expect we will lose SW to another club if we dont keep reappointing him.

Exactly.

[Cairnsman]

Magnanimous...generous of spirit. forgiving
opposite of bitter & twisted and vengeful.

I know what it means and it starts out with generous spirit but you have to be faithful otherwise it certainly does often end bitter, twisted and vengeful.

[magnifisaint]

If Lyon loses this Saturday it will be 3 losses and 1 draw. I have a feeling he could win this one

[whiskers3614]

Magnanimous...generous of spirit. forgiving
opposite of bitter & twisted and vengeful.

I know what it means and it starts out with generous spirit but you have to be faithful otherwise it certainly does often end bitter, twisted and vengeful.

My brother has a view on monogamy vs polygamy
he claims that there is no amount of trouble multiple wives can give you that ONE can't give on her own!

[WellardSaint]

O M G
I have p66 on "ignore", so I only read the wheezy nonsense when somebody quotes the <deleted by your friendly Forum Nazi>
For the FIRST TIME she (I think it's Sophie Mirabella) made complete sense, when she said the forum will be in meltdown on Sat night, the pro and anti Lyon folk will both feel vindicated (Sophie/pluggs, this means they will say the result proves their theories).
P66 being right. Must be an omen. Dockers to win.
Global warming to be reversed overnight.
Clive Palmer to win majority govt after vote recount.
Julian Assange to be awarded Nobel Peace Prize, presented by Obama and made a US citizen.

[dragit]

Clarko absofarkinlutely is way better than Lyon. By a huuuuuuge margin.

Ripping thread CM.

So if Lyon wins this week they have the same amount of flags and GF losses…

But you have it in your mind that Clarkson has built a list from the ground up even though most of his best players were at the club before he had started and half of the rest are hired help.

Ironic that you mentioned rewriting history.

Hodge, Lewis, Sewell, Mitchell, Franklin & Roughhead - players at the club before Clarkson had coached a game, I wonder how many flags he'd have won without those 6? Be lucky to have made the finals.

[Cairnsman]

Clarko absofarkinlutely is way better than Lyon. By a huuuuuuge margin.

Ripping thread CM.

So if Lyon wins this week they have the same amount of flags and GF losses…

But you have it in your mind that Clarkson has built a list from the ground up even though most of his best players were at the club before he had started and half of the rest are hired help.

Ironic that you mentioned rewriting history.

Hodge, Lewis, Sewell, Mitchell, Franklin & Roughhead - players at the club before Clarkson had coached a game, I wonder how many flags he'd have won without those 6? Be lucky to have made the finals.

So hypothetically if Watters ends up being a premiership coach for us will he be able to claim he lead the club to a flag from a rebuild even though players like Steven, Armo, Geary, Stanley, Newnes, Sippo, and McEvoy were already at the club?

Clarko was appointed in 2005 and for the first few years of his contract the club was at the bottom of the ladder...sound familiar. The facts are he was appointed to lead a re-build.

[dragit]

So hypothetically if Watters ends up being a premiership coach for us will he be able to claim he lead the club to a flag from a rebuild even though players like Steven, Armo, Geary, Stanley, Newnes, Sippo, and McEvoy were already at the club?

Clarko was appointed in 2005 and for the first few years of his contract the club was at the bottom of the ladder...sound familiar. The facts are he was appointed to lead a re-build.

For starters Watters hasn't inherited a handful of top 5 players… yet. But you'd think they are coming.
Steven - pick 42 Armo - pick - 9 Geary - 58 rookie draft Newnes - 37 Siposs - 75 McEvoy - 9
If he wins a flag - he is a genius, cause our list is f***ed.

Pretty different level of talent to
Hodge - pick 1, Lewis - pick 7, Franklin - pick 5 & Roughhead - pick 2

Which is pretty similar talent-wise to what Lyon inherited
Riewoldt - pick 1, Kosi - pick 2, Ball pick 2…

What's the difference in what Lyon and Clarkson inherited?

I would argue that Franklin/Roughhead/Hodge have been a more effective combination than Riewoldt/Kosi/Ball combined.

More high draft picks were butchered at Hawthorn while Clarkson was in charge than Lyon at St Kilda
2005 - 3 - Ellis, 5 - Dowler, 22 Muston
2006 - 6 - Thorp, 24 Renouf, 33 - Morton (from trading Everitt) 40 - Kennedy FS who they gave away
2008 - 16 Schoenmakers
2009 - 39 their first pick Grimley

[Cairnsman]

So hypothetically if Watters ends up being a premiership coach for us will he be able to claim he lead the club to a flag from a rebuild even though players like Steven, Armo, Geary, Stanley, Newnes, Sippo, and McEvoy were already at the club?

Clarko was appointed in 2005 and for the first few years of his contract the club was at the bottom of the ladder...sound familiar. The facts are he was appointed to lead a re-build.

For starters Watters hasn't inherited a handful of top 5 players… yet. But you'd think they are coming.
Steven - pick 42 Armo - pick - 9 Geary - 58 rookie draft Newnes - 37 Siposs - 75 McEvoy - 9
If he wins a flag - he is a genius, cause our list is f***ed.

Pretty different level of talent to
Hodge - pick 1, Lewis - pick 7, Franklin - pick 5 & Roughhead - pick 2

Which is pretty similar talent-wise to what Lyon inherited
Riewoldt - pick 1, Kosi - pick 2, Ball pick 2…

What's the difference in what Lyon and Clarkson inherited?

I would argue that Franklin/Roughhead/Hodge have been a more effective combination than Riewoldt/Kosi/Ball combined.

More high draft picks were butchered at Hawthorn while Clarkson was in charge than Lyon at St Kilda
2005 - 3 - Ellis, 5 - Dowler, 22 Muston
2006 - 6 - Thorp, 24 Renouf, 33 - Morton (from trading Everitt) 40 - Kennedy FS who they gave away
2008 - 16 Schoenmakers
2009 - 39 their first pick Grimley

Love the binary terms but it would seem that you are inadvertently conceding that Clarko's flag come from a rebuild, albeit with some higher draft pick...still a rebuild cherry.

[dragit]

It's the same level of rebuild as Lyon did with us. A lot of recruiting for the now.

The difference in flags is a shred of luck, so this huge difference in ability you mention is a fallacy.

Hawthorns list is heading towards an abyss just like ours… they wouldn't want to choke for the third year running.

[Cairnsman]

It's the same level of rebuild as Lyon did with us. A lot of recruiting for the now.

The difference in flags is a shred of luck, so this huge difference in ability you mention is a fallacy.

Hawthorns list is heading towards an abyss just like ours… they wouldn't want to choke for the third year running.

But Clarko has the flag and if we are clutching at straws Clarko got his team to beat the Cats in their prime.

[dragit]

It's the same level of rebuild as Lyon did with us. A lot of recruiting for the now.

The difference in flags is a shred of luck, so this huge difference in ability you mention is a fallacy.

Hawthorns list is heading towards an abyss just like ours… they wouldn't want to choke for the third year running.

But Clarko has the flag and if we are clutching at straws Clarko got his team to beat the Cats in their prime.

You don't think luck has played any part then? Just flag & no flag… nothing inbetween?

Lyon's teams have beaten the cats in the prime ten times more than Clarkson's…

Can you remember the goals the cats missed in 08 GF? and the ones we missed in 09? There's not much the coach can do about ridiculous skill errors from highly skilled professionals. The coach can't kick the goals.

[dragit]

At least you have given up on your 'built a list from scratch' myth, considering both inherited the same amount of stars.

[Cairnsman]

It's the same level of rebuild as Lyon did with us. A lot of recruiting for the now.

The difference in flags is a shred of luck, so this huge difference in ability you mention is a fallacy.

Hawthorns list is heading towards an abyss just like ours… they wouldn't want to choke for the third year running.

But Clarko has the flag and if we are clutching at straws Clarko got his team to beat the Cats in their prime.

You don't think luck has played any part then? Just flag & no flag… nothing inbetween?

Lyon's teams have beaten the cats in the prime ten times more than Clarkson's…

Can you remember the goals the cats missed in 08 GF? and the ones we missed in 09? There's not much the coach can do about ridiculous skill errors from highly skilled professionals. The coach can't kick the goals.

Luck may have something to do with some of it with close wins/loses/draws...such as 2009 and 2010 but if my memory is any good I think the margin in the 2008 GF was 20 something points.

Lucky/Unlucky is a debatable thing but what isn't debatable is the way history treats the winners and losers in a GF...for example just heard Robbo on SEN say that questions may be asked of RL and his ability to get a team to victory in a GF if Freo lose...and why wouldn't the question be asked. Glory always goes to the winner and the losers become a distant memory.

[dragit]

Glory always goes to the winner and the losers become a distant memory.

Agree with that.

I don't know if Fremantle were expected to win a flag this year, so I don't think Ross will be under any pressure should they lose… they are clearly playing the best football in their history, making a grand final is a huge moment for the club.

Like us in 2009, the cats in 2008 should have been 6 goals up at half time… Some unbelievable misses from close range…

Check it out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKpKamb-QVU

[Cairnsman]

Glory always goes to the winner and the losers become a distant memory.

Agree with that.

I don't know if Fremantle were expected to win a flag this year, so I don't think Ross will be under any pressure should they lose… they are clearly playing the best football in their history, making a grand final is a huge moment for the club.

Like us in 2009, the cats in 2008 should have been 6 goals up at half time… Some unbelievable misses from close range…

Check it out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKpKamb-QVU

At the start of the season I expected Freo to win the Flag this year and I'm tipping that most people outside of Victoria gave them a fair chance also.

Thanks for the link...didn't watch it but I assume it is another attempt to try and win the argument that missing goals is due to bad lucky or is it good luck to the other side?...how do you keep up with yourself.

[plugger66]

Glory always goes to the winner and the losers become a distant memory.

Agree with that.

I don't know if Fremantle were expected to win a flag this year, so I don't think Ross will be under any pressure should they lose… they are clearly playing the best football in their history, making a grand final is a huge moment for the club.

Like us in 2009, the cats in 2008 should have been 6 goals up at half time… Some unbelievable misses from close range…

Check it out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKpKamb-QVU

At the start of the season I expected Freo to win the Flag this year and I'm tipping that most people outside of Victoria gave them a fair chance also.

Thanks for the link...didn't watch it but I assume it is another attempt to try and win the argument that missing goals is due to bad lucky or is it good luck to the other side?...how do you keep up with yourself.

Must have only Victorian bookmakers then because they were fifth favoutite at over 10 to one. That suggests no where near most people outside victoria thought they would win the flag.

[dragit]

Thanks for the link...didn't watch it but I assume it is another attempt to try and win the argument that missing goals is due to bad lucky or is it good luck to the other side?...how do you keep up with yourself.

You can lead a horse to water, but Cairnsman will always be a complete nuffy.

[Cairnsman]

Agree with that.

I don't know if Fremantle were expected to win a flag this year, so I don't think Ross will be under any pressure should they lose… they are clearly playing the best football in their history, making a grand final is a huge moment for the club.

Like us in 2009, the cats in 2008 should have been 6 goals up at half time… Some unbelievable misses from close range…

Check it out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKpKamb-QVU

At the start of the season I expected Freo to win the Flag this year and I'm tipping that most people outside of Victoria gave them a fair chance also.

Thanks for the link...didn't watch it but I assume it is another attempt to try and win the argument that missing goals is due to bad lucky or is it good luck to the other side?...how do you keep up with yourself.

Must have only Victorian bookmakers then because they were fifth favoutite at over 10 to one. That suggests no where near most people outside victoria thought they would win the flag.

Ok...you got me...I'm not going to argue with a gambling expert.