a goal-kicking forward line

[SaintBot]

Tall Forwards:

Nick Riewoldt
Justin Koschitzke
Fraser Gehrig
Jarryd Allen
Ben McEvoy
Khan Haretuku

Medium Forwards:

Charlie Gardiner

Small Forwards:

Stephen Milne
Adam Schneider
Clinton Jones


Midfielders who can kick goals:

Aaron Fiora
Sam Gilbert (Tall)
Xavier Clarke
Robert Harvey
Nick Dal Santo
Steven Baker
Shane Birss
Leigh Montagna
Brendan Goddard
David Armitage
Luke Ball
Michael Gardiner (Ruck)

Forward Line Setup:

Code: Select all

Midfielder - Riewoldt - Schneider
                   Milne
           Gehrig - Koschitzke

[Otiman]

It's worth including Gardiner in your list too... Both of them.

[SaintBot]

It's worth including Gardiner in your list too... Both of them.

ofcourse

[bigcarl]

here's my new line-up.

C: Gram, Hayes, Gilbert
HF: G-Train, Goddard, Riewoldt
F: Milne, Kosi, midfield rotation

There is enough goals there to win the 2008 premiership

where's schneider?

he comes under midfield rotation

[bigcarl]

They will not play G at half forward. He will play at FF or will not play. Kosi will play CHF and Roo a roaming forward or Kosi as a ruck forward. The forward line will not win us the flag. It will be the onballers and the backs so that is where the improvement is needed IMO. Also BJ will play down back especially coming back from a reco as he will not need to be as mobile.

all i'm saying is don't underestimate the importance of being able to convert opportunities to goals.

geelong had five guys who kicked 30 or more this year; we had three.

they were best in the league for converting inside 50s into goals. we were among the worst.

they had multiple reliable avenues to goal; we again left too much to too few.

imo kosi should be our full forward as he has it all over fraser in the ability to take pack marks.

this is vital in being able to overcome the flooding tactics that continue to baffle us.

play fraser wide in the pocket. should be good for 40 or more goals.

the forward line needs major work otherwise i forsee more of the same.

the player streaming forward has to be able to see more than just riewoldt or fraser

we have enough good goal-kickers to be able to back ourselves to kick a winning score nearly every week, just as geelong did in 2007.

and move it down there quickly in blitzkreig fashion FFS

[plugger66]

They will not play G at half forward. He will play at FF or will not play. Kosi will play CHF and Roo a roaming forward or Kosi as a ruck forward. The forward line will not win us the flag. It will be the onballers and the backs so that is where the improvement is needed IMO. Also BJ will play down back especially coming back from a reco as he will not need to be as mobile.

all i'm saying is don't underestimate the importance of being able to convert opportunities to goals.

geelong had five guys who kicked 30 or more this year; we had three.

they were best in the league for converting inside 50s into goals. we were among the worst.

they had multiple reliable avenues to goal; we again left too much to too few.

imo kosi should be our full forward as he has it all over fraser in the ability to take pack marks.

this is vital in being able to overcome the flooding tactics that continue to baffle us.

play fraser wide in the pocket. should be good for 40 or more goals.

the forward line needs major work otherwise i forsee more of the same.

the player streaming forward has to be able to see more than just riewoldt or fraser

we have enough good goal-kickers to be able to back ourselves to kick a winning score nearly every week, just as geelong did in 2007.

and move it down there quickly in blitzkreig fashion FFS

I would think most FF do not take pack marks. They have and always will rely on leading. G has it all over Kosi in that department. The cats did have mutiple options but most were small or medium players. That is where our forward line needs to improve.

[bigcarl]

I would think most FF do not take pack marks. They have and always will rely on leading. G has it all over Kosi in that department. The cats did have mutiple options but most were small or medium players. That is where our forward line needs to improve.

at least we've established that our forward line needs to improve. i'm glad you conceded that.

as for most full forwards not taking pack marks, perhaps i should have said contested marks. lockett, hudson, wade ... i can probably think of a few more.

one of the strings to a good full forward's bow is the ability to be able to beat his opponent aerially in a one-on-one. fraser doesn't do this often enough. nor does roo. delivery to them needs to be perfect for them to have a chance. it takes the long bomb forward out of it

it is the one dimension of our forward line that has left us extremely vulnerable to flooding

[n1ck]

HF: Harvey - Riewoldt - Schneider

FF: Milne - Koschitzke - Gehrig / Goddard

[bigcarl]

plugger66 wrote: G will play at FF or will not play. Kosi will play CHF and Roo a roaming forward.

i've thought about it again and what you suggest above could work. the idea of roo released from being the focal point of every single foray into our forward line appeals to me.

but let's hope we never go back to the one-dimensional roo chf, gehrig ff set up that has not been good enough in the past. it's predictable and too easy to counter. it's been tried and failed.

imo kosi must play as a permanent forward ... not as a bit parts ruck/forward. his ability to take contested marks is just too important and now is the time for him to be given the responsibility of a key position.

while we're remaking the forward line, all the others down there should be able to contribute on the scoreboard too. milne, bj (or Gilbert) and a midfielder on rotation would be my other chosen three.

so something like:

HF: BJ (or Gilbert), Kosi, Riewoldt
FF: Milne, Fraser, Midfield Rotation

plenty of goals there and we have good enough players elsewhere on the park to be able to spoon feed this star forward line. difficult to see how we can fail to win the premiership at this stage

... unless injuries raise their ugly head

that half-forward line is a winner

[saintsRrising]

[so something like:

HF: BJ (or Gilbert), Kosi, Riewoldt
FF: Milne, Fraser, Midfield Rotation

Or lets make the forward line not too lumbering....as I don't think we really need 4 marking targets.

I think the following has more balance....and run.

HF: Schneider, Kosi, Riewoldt
FF: Milne, Fraser, Midfield Rotation (Harvey)


Roo nominally ona flank...but basically he just has a 007 licence to improvise and run where he wills...and his great tank will allow him to.


HF: Schneider (Midfield rotation), Kosi, Riewoldt
FF: Milne, Fraser, Midfield Rotation (Harvey)

[bigcarl]

i wouldn't describe either bj or gilbert as lumbering, though the knee reconstruction probably will have slowed bj down a bit. it's not a word i'd use to describe riewoldt or milney or a rotated mid either.

nor can i see any problem with four marking targets.

means the opposition's fourth best defender would be picking up bj or gilbert. also means they wouldn't be able to double man riewoldt, or kosi, or fraser.

however what you suggest also has its merit. truth is it doesn't matter much, so long as our forward line can convert opportunities to goals.

[Teflon]

plugger66 wrote: G will play at FF or will not play. Kosi will play CHF and Roo a roaming forward.

but let's hope we never go back to the one-dimensional roo chf, gehrig ff set up that has not been good enough in the past. it's predictable and too easy to counter. it's been tried and failed.

imo kosi must play as a permanent forward ... not as a bit parts ruck/forward. his ability to take contested marks is just too important and now is the time for him to be given the responsibility of a key position.

Agree re Kosi. Its time he stopped being shunted round as some half ruck/half forward type and be given a chance to settle. IF he was at the Dogs or any other side Im tippin hed have settled forward by now......to good hands not to....he has the ability to hit a pack like Browne and hold the grab......rare commodity in AFL footy these days...and these are the guys (and we saw it 4 games on the trot) ARE match turners IMO.

[bigcarl]

Agree re Kosi. Its time he stopped being shunted round as some half ruck/half forward type and be given a chance to settle. IF he was at the Dogs or any other side Im tippin hed have settled forward by now......to good hands not to....he has the ability to hit a pack like Browne and hold the grab......rare commodity in AFL footy these days...and these are the guys (and we saw it 4 games on the trot) ARE match turners IMO.

hear hear. kosi will thrive on the extra responsibility of a key position and help transform our under-performing forward line.

i'm red hot on the topic of the forward set-up. imo if we can get it to work the way it should (given the resources available) a premiership awaits

[karnak]

bump

[Broodruff]

Everyone has thrown up equally valid ideas, all of them with their pros and cons.

Has anyone thought for a moment that we could use MOST of the above strategies?

Imagine a forward line with players like Roo, Kosi, Gherig, Schnider, Milne, Gilbert, BJ, and our midfielders roaming around in it.

All of the above players are incredibly skilled and very very adaptable and able to play more than one style and position; with maybe the exception of Gherig.

A forward line of Gherig, Roo, Kosi, Gilbert, Schnider, Milne, Rotating mid... etc is indeed a very scary prospect,

What I would really like is for these guys to all get together before and during the season in meetings and at training. Last year our forward line was made up of 6 bodies and 6 minds; This year I'd like to see our forwardline, again, with 6 bodies, but 1 mind. All too often I think all of our forwards work tirelessly for themselves. "Together We Are One" should carry through to our forward line; I would like to see these guys working tirelessly for each other, working as a group.
A forward line that, as a whole, has a mind of its own, is dynamic, can shift and change to adapt and expose oppisition defences. While we do have forward line coaches and messages taken out to the players by runners, this isn't as immediate as a forwardline capable of changing, morphing and adapting play by play, moment my moment.

I believe that is a very daunting prospect

[bigcarl]

we should be flexible enough to change things around mid-match. for example, if fraser is being blanketed and kosi is not getting much of it then switch them around. or give roo a run at ff.

... and go with whatever appears to be working on the day.

these guys are all team-minded enough to know that it is not about them, but about the team and what is going to net us a winning score. so i wouldn't expect egos to come into it too often

i do think having a settled forward six is equally as important as having a settled back six. any of them should, on his day, be capable of kicking a bag.

actually i think we should have a settled forward five. the last spot should go to a mid on rotation

[Otiman]

There is one big issue with modern day forward lines. In 2004 we were dominating with our big targets up forward, then the new age came.

The new age of defense involves players covering for each other, organisation that is paramount to a successful defense. Only got 3 tall defenders against 4 tall forwards? No worries, there's enough time for the ball to be in the air to get two defenders in place, the tallest guy (or best equipped to spoil, given stature and positioning) will spoil, and the other guy will mop up and rebound from defense.

I propose a new way of tackling a forward thrust. Treat it as a ruck contest. Throw a secondary midfield down there, two 'rucks' (Tall forwards) and four 'mids' (Small crumbing forwards). The ball is kicked towards the forwards, who then, instead of marking, tap the ball to the advantage of one of the offensive crumbers. This would be another tool in the arsenal of forwards, and whilst it may be easily countered (i'm not sure how yet), it will give defenders something else to think about and have to cover for - leaving for multiple choices for entries into 50.

Perhaps i should CC this post to the coaching staff. Feel free to pick it apart, offer criticism and so on.

[rodgerfox]

Everyone has thrown up equally valid ideas, all of them with their pros and cons.

Has anyone thought for a moment that we could use MOST of the above strategies?

I'd go as far as to say we must use all of the above strategies.

I wrote in another thread (it might have even been this one) that footy these days is incredibly similar to basketball.

You need to be able to score inside the key, from medium range and from outside. If you're one dimensional, the defence stacks themselves and the scoring dries up. Footy is exactly the same these days.

If you have big key marking forwards and go to them all the time, the defence will flood. That's playnig into your hands if you can then start scoring from 'outside'. If you can't score from 'outside', then you're stuffed.



As for Kosi, the idea of him becoming a one position player is totally outdated. Players these days simply cannot be one posi players - those that are become obsolete.

Even ruckmen these days need to be able to play forward.

Why we would purposely turn the best big man in the comp into an obsolete one posi player is beyond me.

I actually don't think he's a natural forward. He doesn't lead well, and needs to have a run at a pack to get into the contest. The good defenders don't give him this and he gets killed.

[Ghost Like]

Another option would be a four man forward line, a diamond, starting with:

KOSI
MILNE SCHNEIDER (X. CLARKE)
GEHRIG

I'd like to see them work in partnerships, Milne knows Gehrig well so should partner him and Kosi and Schneider should be given an opportunity to develop a partnership. Both Milne and Schneider should also be able to get to the feet of whichever target the midfielder chooses. It would be very rare that Kosi or Gehrig, if not taking a mark, could not get the ball to ground.

This allows Roo and BJ to start up on the wing and be part of a midfield rotation. Beware the side that allows them to run free and drift forward without being checked.

I think any side that realises Roo is not locked into a key forward post and has licence would be very worried.

[rodgerfox]

Speaking of Kosi, I just saw him.

Looked very thin. Surprised me, I must say.

Certainly didn't look like a 'power forward' in physique.

[bigcarl]

Speaking of Kosi, I just saw him.

Looked very thin. Surprised me, I must say.

Certainly didn't look like a 'power forward' in physique.

he can take a big contested grab which, in some ways, puts him ahead of roo and fraser. him playing in a key forward position, imo, is vital to our chances of a premiership in 2008.

[Sobraz]

Speaking of Kosi, I just saw him.

Looked very thin. Surprised me, I must say.

Certainly didn't look like a 'power forward' in physique.

I've actually noticed that alot of footballer i see aorund these days are slim... Broad and tall, but slim... And increasingly so... Even the big 'power forwards' arnt built like the old days... I see GTrain around every now and again, and he is an exception; a very big lad, but guys like cam mooney, richo and roo are all thin... Kosi is very much the same..

In saying, that are all very very strong weight for strength wise.. So much running in the game means that they are all very fit and low in body fat, but they would all be very high in muscle and flexible.. Kosi will be able to play the role no probs..

Of the power fowards natural enemy, the gorilla fullback, there is only really mal michael around who is seriously big.. Rutten, Glass, Scarlett are all tall and storng, but similarly slim..

[bigcarl]

Yes, the forward line on paper looks awsome ... but ... we need all of the half back line and midfielders continuously pumping the ball into our forward 50 for the guys mentioned to kick a winning score

i don't think anyone's overlooking the fact that you have to get it down there first. that goes without saying and, imo, we have the players to do it.

but we need to ensure that when it does enter our forward 50 we actually put a score on the board much of the time.

last year we were very poor in this regard, although we improved a lot in the second half of the season when RL appeared to get the message through to the players about the crucual importance of quick and direct delivery forward.

it's all about maximising opportunities

[Teflon]

I actually don't think he's a natural forward. He doesn't lead well, and needs to have a run at a pack to get into the contest. The good defenders don't give him this and he gets killed.

Nonsense. Whats wrong with his leading? - apart from the fact he gets to do it rarely because hes never had a genuine stint as a forward for any length of time...

As for 'getting a run at a pack' - thats something, that dependent on ball movement up field AND fwd 50 structure you can generate......

As for 1 positon players...theres plenty....Lade, Cox, Fevola, Scarlett etc etc - thats a myth. Ofcourse players need greater flexibility in todays game - they cant be Mick Nolans - BUT that doesnt mean that many are still not 1 position specialists.

[bigcarl]

Another option would be a four man forward line, a diamond, starting with:

KOSI
MILNE SCHNEIDER (X. CLARKE)
GEHRIG

I'd like to see them work in partnerships, Milne knows Gehrig well so should partner him and Kosi and Schneider should be given an opportunity to develop a partnership. Both Milne and Schneider should also be able to get to the feet of whichever target the midfielder chooses. It would be very rare that Kosi or Gehrig, if not taking a mark, could not get the ball to ground.

This allows Roo and BJ to start up on the wing and be part of a midfield rotation. Beware the side that allows them to run free and drift forward without being checked.

I think any side that realises Roo is not locked into a key forward post and has licence would be very worried.

i'm all for left field ideas and ''Ghost Like's Diamond'' has its appeal. imo would work better with three smalls rather than two.

agree that roo and bj drifting forward would be a real worry for our opponents.

that there'd be only five guys up there would mean we could get goose to roam the half back line as an aeriallist, freed from the responsibility of having to worry about an opponent.

not sure about x-man as the third guy on half forward though. doesn't kick enough goals at this stage. don't suppose we could spare dal or ball up there