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[markp]

Thanks Markp.

I sometimes through work walk around the grounds too, not just Saints games. I find racist comments really rare these days.

Let's hope it is getting less and less as we go.

But at our club, as far as myself and all I know who support us are concerned, any comments are directed at skill only.

Sure you're right.... my point is only that we should remain aware of it.

Cheers....

You must be off soon?!

This time next week the boy and I will be on a stopover at Singapore heading for Amsterdam.....

Nothin like when that plane lifts off and you're on your way.......

[JeffDunne]

I'd actually missed that shot from JD until it was highlighted by Teflon.

There was no debate to be had - at no stage were we debating the colour of a bloke's skin.

There was not a racism issue - IT WAS ABOUT FOOTBALL.

The debate was the criticism being directed towards certain players and why some seem to cop unfair criticism over others. It's not the criticism of the player's performance that raises my eyebrow but the nature of the criticism.

The suggestion was that some of the criticism may be based on the colour of their skin. It was a suggestion, nobody was called a racist (other than those who raised it) and nobody even suggested that the criticisms in this thread were racist.

As someone who doesn't spend their time potting players and questioning their intelligence based on a few errors on the football field, I do often wonder why others are motivated in doing so. Especially those that do it in the cold light of day and not as a knee-jerk reaction on match day. I often wonder too why the same type of players are potted and when they are, their intelligence, committment and courage is always questioned.

The reaction to Gwilt & Gilbert and the criticisms of their respective performances on the weekend would be a case in point. I don't see people questioning Gilberts intelligence.

[Solar]

No doubt I've witnessed it at the footy, no doubt it's real... can't speak for this thread or this forum. Being at least aware of it and acknowledging it, is part of the price we pay for striving to be civilized....

I personally fear that Jimmy and Raph wont make it (hope like hell they do)... but I've seen some (at the game) go them and X too hard, too often for it not to make you wonder about their motives.

But then I think a lot of the vitriol poured on players and coach alike at times is disgraceful too, regardless of race.... save it for the opposition!

I've never heard a racist comment directed at either and I go most weeks..
I've heard supporters voicing their opinion but its nothing to do with colour/creed and if it were the crowd would vehemently not tolerate it.

Its racism if you cant criticise because of their colour.

Exactly.

I also go nearly every week and have never heard it and would never tolerate it either.

I've actually never heard a racist comment against an oppo player either. I know I haven't because I haven't been involved in an argument re this yet.

I usually sit Aisle 19-20 in the SC area. Where do you sit markp to hear this?

I was sad one day when a group of suited saints supporters were racists against kerr last year. I would have thought that our supporter group would know better.

Anyway on gwilt, one shocker after 2 good days. Should keep his spot. It is important to note that 2 of the goals he gave away was covering for another defender.

[Saints in 20??]

And here we go again...
MAYBE some people are racist that have a go at indigenous players, maybe some people are racist who don't have a go at indigenous players,maybe some people are racist who have a go at non-indigenous players, maybe some people are racist who don't. Its like Dr.Seuss.
Unless someone can show me that Fiora, Blake and Kosi are Tiwi islanders or that anyone on here has said anything about indigenous players that seems overtly racist, shut the hell up!

[markp]

Unless someone can show me that Fiora, Blake and Kosi are Tiwi islanders or that anyone on here has said anything about indigenous players that seems overtly racist, shut the hell up!

Why? It's a forum.....

[Saints in 20??]

yes a FOOTBALL forum

[WayneJudson42]

The reaction to Gwilt & Gilbert and the criticisms of their respective performances on the weekend would be a case in point. I don't see people questioning Gilberts intelligence.

Simple: Gilbert had a good year in '07 and has shown what he is capable of. So in supporters eyes, he's got some "credits" in the bank, and is judged less harshly.

Gwilt has not, so people get down on him more.

In the end, it seems that people make up their minds pretty quickly about players and coaches, and then only see their performances throught their own prejudices (race or otherwise).

Those of us with some semblance of inteeligence can discuss this in a mature manner. But the "pea brains" don't have the capacity to do so, and will deal with their own insecurities by abusing others.

[stinger]

of course there is racial prejudice or racial overtones in some of the criticisms i have seen on footy forums.......is this one any worse than all the others..???.no.....go have a look at big footy if you don't believe me....it's all unacceptable all the same....


times are changing though...would robbie muir be labelled "mad dog" these days.???hardly...but then without the racial abuse he was subjected too...maybe he wouldn't have gone off so easily.....

[WayneJudson42]

Muir... The single biggest waste of talent last century

[markp]

yes a FOOTBALL forum

Ummm, I'm pretty sure this qualifies as football related. The mods aint moved it yet either..... Seems like a rational and worthy topic for a discussion to me.

[meher baba]

Sorry guys and gals

I've been way outback for a few days and haven't been online. I've just had a chance to look up good old SS and I see that a throwaway comment I made on the spur of the moment has made a much bigger splash than I anticipated!!

I was never suggesting that anybody who criticises Gwilt (or Raph or X or other non-white players) is necessarily being racist. It would be racist to fail for us to fail to criticise those players when they merit such criticism.

However, I have noticed that Gwilt seems to be subject to more criticism on this forum, particularly in relation to his "footy brain" and his skills, than many other players who don't seem to me to be any better than him.

He's not the first and he's not the last to be singled out for undue criticism on this forum. TS 40 was another classic example (Schwarze indeed meaning "black" as sRr pointed out ). Raph and BJ are a bit different IMO, because much of the criticism around them revolves around the fact that they were early draft picks and initially didn't live up to high expectations.

Gwilt and TS 40 are different cases. They were lower draft picks who had a bit of pace and height. Their height meant they could be used as pinch hitters in defence, where any mistakes are more visible and have more immediate dire consequences.

The irony is that Gwilt and TS 40 are actually more skilled than many who have had a better reception on here. Both of them can drill long, low passes to the chest of a forward: something that I fear that the likes of Clinton Jones or Attard or Geary or Allen may never be able to do.

TS 40 was sacked in 2007 in order to bring M Clarke to the club ( ). Gwilt remains on the books, although I suspect that he might still be shown the door at the end of the season. The suggestion has been made on this forum and, I fear, around the club, that he isn't fit enough and doesn't have great "footy smarts". I doubt this is fair: I think his real problem is that, like Schwarze, he is a taller, less energetic player than your typical midfielder or tagger. These sorts of players just don't seem to be as fashionable as they once were. Even BJ, who has supreme skills and a much bigger engine, has struggled to gain a profile as high as he deserves IMO.

So, to be fair, I don't think that the singling out for criticism of Gwilt, or even Raph, is generally caused by conscious or even unconscious racism on the part of Sainters fans.

But some of the criticism - particularly where it implies lower intelligence, lack of courage, or indifference - is clearly racist in nature. I have seen such racist comments on SS on many occasions. The racist posters are a minority group, but they exist. It's foolish to pretend they aren't here.

[Goose is king]

Gwilt is a good thing waiting to happen. And he will.

[Teflon]

The reaction to Gwilt & Gilbert and the criticisms of their respective performances on the weekend would be a case in point. I don't see people questioning Gilberts intelligence.

Simple: Gilbert had a good year in '07 and has shown what he is capable of. So in supporters eyes, he's got some "credits" in the bank, and is judged less harshly.

Gwilt has not, so people get down on him more.

In the end, it seems that people make up their minds pretty quickly about players and coaches, and then only see their performances throught their own prejudices (race or otherwise).

Those of us with some semblance of inteeligence can discuss this in a mature manner. But the "pea brains" don't have the capacity to do so, and will deal with their own insecurities by abusing others.

Theres many pea brains on this forum Wayne.....you'll pick it up as you go..

The point is as you make it - very simple really.

Gwilts shown little if anything yet (1 good final 3 yrs ago?)
Gilbert played well for a season.

Somehow thats a basis to suggest ANY criticism directed toward Gwilt must have another reason or egde??....as opposed to...maybe he just aint produced on the park enough yet???

You could look at it this way:

Xavier Clarke has shown plenty IMHO
Raph Clarke squat.

Either way it doesnt matter.....those attempting to portray some sort of moral fortitude will find fault no matter and stupid throw away lines like Babblelots IMO demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of whats a serious and sensitive issue.

Anyway sadly in the debate on racism the "accusers" are as bad if not worse than the biggots........perhaps more in a zealous christian witch hunt sorta way...

Anyway, if people stick to footy we should be ok- if someone is racist they will be shown the door and so they should.

[Teflon]

And here we go again...
MAYBE some people are racist that have a go at indigenous players, maybe some people are racist who don't have a go at indigenous players,maybe some people are racist who have a go at non-indigenous players, maybe some people are racist who don't. Its like Dr.Seuss.
Unless someone can show me that Fiora, Blake and Kosi are Tiwi islanders or that anyone on here has said anything about indigenous players that seems overtly racist, shut the hell up!

I think that says it all.

Well said.

[WayneJudson42]

Being a wog, I copped a heap at school, everytime I opened up my lunchbox

What I can say is that racism cuts both ways. Aussies v wogs, and wogs v Aussies, Asians, Black, White, Christian, Muslim. You name it, it does exist. BOTH ways.

I see it alot when I'm in the USA. That's why my money is on Obama doing a Kennedy.

Anyway, let's put it to bed. Perhaps, we should think twice before commenting. ???? Innocent or otherwise.

Peace.

[Teflon]

Being a wog, I copped a heap at school, everytime I opened up my lunchbox

What I can say is that racism cuts both ways. Aussies v wogs, and wogs v Aussies, Asians, Black, White, Christian, Muslim. You name it, it does exist. BOTH ways.

I see it alot when I'm in the USA. That's why my money is on Obama doing a Kennedy.

Anyway, let's put it to bed. Perhaps, we should think twice before commenting. ???? Innocent or otherwise.

Peace.

Lets hope some take that on board....

[Saints in 20??]

Can we all just agree to hate the black and white stripes?