Lewis Pierce

[The_Dud]

If only you knew who you were trying to insult, you little pissant!!!!!

You can’t really keep using this line... not that it’s overly relevant. The argument theme of I know I’m right but can’t tell you right is really rather sad.

You really should spill the beans or stop bringing it up

I think his supposed football career was about as legitimate as his namesakes championship belts

[stonecold]

If only you knew who you were trying to insult, you little pissant!!!!!

You can’t really keep using this line... not that it’s overly relevant. The argument theme of I know I’m right but can’t tell you right is really rather sad.

You really should spill the beans or stop bringing it up

I think his supposed football career was about as legitimate as his namesakes championship belts

Keep telling you, third man rule is no longer, but you just carnt help yourself, safety in numbers, all be it irrelevant numbers!!!!!

[Scollop]

Tom has played 70 odd games for how many wins?????

By the way champions, Martin is right up there with Gawn, think about that MOFO's!!!!!

Richo dropped Hickey after we played Brisbane and then Collingwood in 2017 in rnds 3 and 4. So you're saying Martin was way too good for Longer this year but Hickey should have beaten Martin last year and that was reason enough for Richo to bag him and relegate him to the magoos for the year?

I've looked at the win loss for Hickey in 2015/2016/2017 versus the won loss when Lonegr played in those 3 years. It's neck and neck so your little question about 'how many wins' Tom has played is meaningless. Think about that Brofo

Neck and neck, that's a very kind assessment, plus, once again, you just chose a block of years that suits, funny that!!!!!

So, in your 'manufactured stats', Billy still ahead in the Neck and neck race, isn't he!!!!!!

Funny how a bloke who is apparently is Struggling to get a VFL game, was in the best two players last week (as named by coaches) and named emergency for this game!!!!!

That would suggest that your boy, Hickledik better do well tomorrow!!!!!

Also, stop trying to tell me what I'm saying, please and thank you!!!!!

Blind Freddie knows Longer played rnds 1 and 2 injured, only played because Hickey was showing nothing in the twos at the time, even went with Marshall in rnd 3, because of a lack of form on Hickey's part!!!!!

Tom needs to become an identity, simple, if he can do that then he will stay!!!!!

"A block of years that suits"....????.... you do realise that when you are trying to debate it's important not to keep putting your foot in your mouth? What did you want me to use- weeks or months? You are the one who raised the argument about games won when Hickey rucks - I didn't. I would have thought that if you objectively look at a chunk of years when both were deemed to be ready and able that would be fair. There is 1 game the diff over 3 years but so what...

If you just plucked the total figures, you didn't consider the fixture and who we played and the fact we were wooden spooners when Hickey arrived did you? Pure stats about how many wins when susch and such a player is in the team, aren't evidence on their own and only a simpleton would make any conclusions the way you are trying.

Another thing you hang your hat on is the fact that Richo and the coaches publicly criticised Tom and his ruck wrk last year. I haven't heard the coaches use the same sort of negative language towards Billy. Richo hasn't quite covered himself in glory in the last 12 months so any decisions that you believed were the correct ones might actually turn out in the long run to be incorrect. I believe that history will prove that Tom is a keeper and I believe that Billy will struggle to resurrect his career. Let's see who is a better judge

[saynta]

If only you knew who you were trying to insult, you little pissant!!!!!

You can’t really keep using this line... not that it’s overly relevant. The argument theme of I know I’m right but can’t tell you right is really rather sad.

You really should spill the beans or stop bringing it up

I think his supposed football career was about as legitimate as his namesakes championship belts

What, do you think you are a comedian or something?

Don't give up your day job.

[The_Dud]

If only you knew who you were trying to insult, you little pissant!!!!!

You can’t really keep using this line... not that it’s overly relevant. The argument theme of I know I’m right but can’t tell you right is really rather sad.

You really should spill the beans or stop bringing it up

I think his supposed football career was about as legitimate as his namesakes championship belts

What, do you think you are a comedian or something?

Don't give up your day job.

[BackFromUSA]

Just all like stats they need to be broken down, and you don't simply get a correlation or conclusion by looking at these pure voting numbers without looking at other KPI's. I'm pretty certain I know where the author got their intel about the 3rd man up and relating that to Hickey... No doubt from SS.

I can't be stuffed loking up the coaches votes but I'd be pretty sure that Stef Martin would have polled against Billy and maybe even Totty also got votes against Billy. If you take out those games, maybe we'd be somewhere in the middle as a club. I'm also positive that if all our players were contributing and playing their role as well is Tom is at the moment, we'll be competitive in a lot more matches

Good point. By the looks of it Longer gave up 6 votes to Martin and 5 to Goldy, so that’s well over a third of the 28 right there, nice job Billy!
Then round 3 Marshall gave up 2 to Jacobs.
So basically Longer and Marshall gave up 13 votes in 3 rounds, and Hickey 15 in 6... says it all really!

Ol’ stoney is going to be super salty about this one

So Hickey gave up 15 votes in 6 games. Didn’t he earn some as well?

[stonecold]

Just all like stats they need to be broken down, and you don't simply get a correlation or conclusion by looking at these pure voting numbers without looking at other KPI's. I'm pretty certain I know where the author got their intel about the 3rd man up and relating that to Hickey... No doubt from SS.

I can't be stuffed loking up the coaches votes but I'd be pretty sure that Stef Martin would have polled against Billy and maybe even Totty also got votes against Billy. If you take out those games, maybe we'd be somewhere in the middle as a club. I'm also positive that if all our players were contributing and playing their role as well is Tom is at the moment, we'll be competitive in a lot more matches

Good point. By the looks of it Longer gave up 6 votes to Martin and 5 to Goldy, so that’s well over a third of the 28 right there, nice job Billy!
Then round 3 Marshall gave up 2 to Jacobs.
So basically Longer and Marshall gave up 13 votes in 3 rounds, and Hickey 15 in 6... says it all really!

Ol’ stoney is going to be super salty about this one

So Hickey gave up 15 votes in 6 games. Didn’t he earn some as well?

If he did, it was against Jon Patton and Dawson Simpson!!!!!

WowWee!!!!!

[stonecold]

If only you knew who you were trying to insult, you little pissant!!!!!

You can’t really keep using this line... not that it’s overly relevant. The argument theme of I know I’m right but can’t tell you right is really rather sad.

You really should spill the beans or stop bringing it up

I think his supposed football career was about as legitimate as his namesakes championship belts

What, do you think you are a comedian or something?

Don't give up your day job.

Tipping the poster wouldn't hold down a day job, well not a legal one anyway!!!!!

[To the top]

So is "Stonecold" Carl Ditterich?

Or John Nicholls?

Or "Polly" Farmer?

Or "Candles" Thompson?

Or Morrie Pope?

Or Bill Longer?

Let's start a guessing game as to which rucking legend he is.

Suggestions?

And I do not know the names of any female ruck persons but they should not be dismissed given the predisposition to referring to everyone as of the female gender - it takes one to know one after all

[stonecold]

Onya Warrior!!!!!

Go your hardest, make sure you put your name down for the Fan Forum MMA, or are you not game enough?????

[cwrcyn]

Stats at St Kilda

Longer (53 games)

2.5 kicks
1.66 marks
5.98 handballs
30 hit outs

Hickey (60 games)

4.88 kicks
3.23 marks
7.2 handballs
20.58 hit outs


In their time at St Kilda, Longer has kicked 4 goals, 3 behinds, whereas Hickey has kicked 18 goals, 21 behinds

As far as contested marks are concerned, Longer has taken 24, while Hickey has taken 74

For goal assists, Longer has had 6, while Hickey has had 17

Rebound 50's..Longer has had 24 to Tom Hickey's 41

Longer wins the hit outs, but Hickey is far more involved in general play, taking many more contested marks and has had many more score involvements (56 to 13)

Make of that what you will.

[cwrcyn]

If we compere them to Todd Goldstein, Longer's hit out stats match Goldstein, while Hickey's general play stats match Goldstein. The question is, which is more important in today's game?

[cwrcyn]

Oh, and another stat. Longer has had 123 (2.32 ave) clearances to Hickey's 153 (2.55 ave)

[cwrcyn]

Contested possessions. Longer 322, Hickey 516
Uncontested possessions. Longer 207, Hickey 346

[cwrcyn]

If you want to match up the non averaged stats, just multiply Longer's stats by 1.13 (based on games played differential). You'll see the statistical difference/comparison is fairly insignificant

[cwrcyn]

What I mean by that is, the gain in Longer's stats is insignificant

[cwrcyn]

So, lets just put it this way

Longer has....

1.5 times as many hit outs


Hickey has....

twice as many kicks
twice as many marks
three times as many contested marks
four times as many score involvements
1.5 times as many rebound 50s
1.2 times as many handballs
1.4 times as many contested possessions
1.5 times as many uncontested possessions
5 times as many shots at goal

[saint6709]

What would Pierces Vfl averages of this year only look like against the Hickey/ longer stats you have posted in your last post ?

[takeaway]

Is this thread supposedly about Lewis Pierce still going? Round and round in circles.

So much obsession with stats nowadays! What about stats that aren't taken or publicised? Blocks, pressure in packs, in play, off play, presence and intimidation, does a hit out give the side an advantage? What if the ruckman got 60% of his hitouts in the last quarter when the team were 50 points down and in junk time? Etc etc.

Stats are only an indication, a proportion of the whole issue, the main issue is the human eye - watching the game, the impact of players, timing, end results, etc.

Stoney thinks Longer is the best option going forward, a few others think Hickey. My view is Longer, but at the moment, he is not showing very much, so Hickey is the man. I would give Hick a couple more games to see if we could at least break even in the middle and on the boundary, if not, and Billy showing nothing, I would give Pierce a go. Why not? Even Pierce with Marshall in as well. We do have the advantage that we can try a few things for the rest of the year.

[BackFromUSA]

If we compere them to Todd Goldstein, Longer's hit out stats match Goldstein, while Hickey's general play stats match Goldstein. The question is, which is more important in today's game?

I hate the pure hit out stats!

Is it possible to compare average hit outs to advantage stats per game???

[samoht]

If we compere them to Todd Goldstein, Longer's hit out stats match Goldstein, while Hickey's general play stats match Goldstein. The question is, which is more important in today's game?

I hate the pure hit out stats!

Is it possible to compare average hit outs to advantage stats per game???

The problem with looking at the "to advantage" stats in isolation is that you're completely ignoring the hitouts "to disadvantage" which occur all the time - but are never collated.
If you look at the ruck contests and hitouts closely, you'll notice that quite a few are hit cleanly straight to opposition players - what I call the "hitouts to disadvantage".
Maybe the hitouts to advantage stats should show the net of the hitouts to advantage minus the hitouts to disadavantage - and it could therefore be a negative number if a ruckman happens to hit more straight
to the opposition players during the course of a game than to their teammates.
A classic example of a "hitout to disadvantage" is Knobel's clean hitout to the advantage of Wanganeen (and therefore to the disadvantage of his team) who kicked the winning goal in our final vs Port Adelaide.
Knobel did us no favours by "winning" that hitout - and the kicker is he had zero possessions around the ground in that important final. He was a disastrous passenger.

[saynta]

What would Pierces Vfl averages of this year only look like against the Hickey/ longer stats you have posted in your last post ?

Pretty damn good I'm betting.

[BackFromUSA]

If we compere them to Todd Goldstein, Longer's hit out stats match Goldstein, while Hickey's general play stats match Goldstein. The question is, which is more important in today's game?

I hate the pure hit out stats!

Is it possible to compare average hit outs to advantage stats per game???

The problem with looking at the "to advantage" stats in isolation is that you're completely ignoring the hitouts "to disadvantage" which occur all the time - but are never collated.
If you look at the ruck contests and hitouts closely, you'll notice that quite a few are hit cleanly straight to opposition players - what I call the "hitouts to disadvantage".
Maybe the hitouts to advantage stats should show the net of the hitouts to advantage minus the hitouts to disadavantage - and it could therefore be a negative number if a ruckman happens to hit more straight
to the opposition players during the course of a game than to their teammates.
A classic example of a "hitout to disadvantage" is Knobel's clean hitout to the advantage of Wanganeen (and therefore to the disadvantage of his team) who kicked the winning goal in our final vs Port Adelaide.
Knobel did us no favours by "winning" that hitout - and the kicker is he had zero possessions around the ground in that important final. He was a disastrous passenger.

Interesting discussion.

I have always assumed that hot outs to advantage included direct to teammate and to their first touch vs the rest which would be no advantage either way, first touch to the opposition or direct to the opposition.

As a result I always judged ruck contest looking at %s of hit outs to advantage versus the oppositions % of hit outs to advantage and then also converted that into what I see as real hit outs.

Let’s use an example. Who won this ruck battle?

40 hit outs with 15% to advantage (6.0)
24 hit outs with 33% to advantage (8.0)

One has to assume that the ruckman who had more hit outs sent 34 hitouts into squares contests or to the opposition advantage ... likewise what appears to be the losing ruckman had a higher pure number go to his own teams advantage and a much lower number (16) go to the oppositions advantage or squared contests.

That is why the art of ruck work is also to prevent the opposition ruck from tapping to their preferred zone not just getting the tap yourself!

In this scenario the actual winning ruckman was the player with 40% less taps!

[samoht]

Simplified, the way you’ve worked your example out, and if that’s all there’s to it, the winning ruckman is the more accurate ruckman with the 16 fewer (or 40% fewer) hitouts, but with 2 more that clearly advantaged their teammates.As you say.
But are the stray hitouts accounted for - the ones that are hit cleanly to the clear advantage of the opposition players?
And if so, how?
Because, from yesterday’s ruck contest, Grundy apparently had 15 that were hitouts to the advantage of their team vs zero from the Bulldog ruckman. So none of his hitouts went askew and to the advantage of the opposition? I would find that hard to believe.

[dragit]

Hickey good again. Longer to be traded as he is 4th in line now.