Or an 80s US cop show staring Scott Baostinger wrote:Con Gorozidis wrote:Stinger - you raise an interesting point.
Pelican was fixated with his plan to get 3 picks inside 20 but would Macca and Nds got us Boyd ?
It's possible. Which would have left us with Boyd, Billings + pick 23 - pretty interesting proposition .
All speculative I guess.
On another note - the title to this thread sounds like a great Children's Book.![]()
big mac and the pelican...
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 292
- Joined: Fri 07 May 2004 10:41am
- Location: under the Fosters sign
Re: big mac and the pelican...
I am marching in the Saints army
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 2622
- Joined: Thu 29 Sep 2011 9:45pm
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Mac never kicked goals up forward for us anyway?SainterK wrote:Me too Satch.satchmo wrote:I think that McEvoy will do very well at the Hawks. That is exactly what makes it win/win.
Much more suited to a 50/50 ruck forward role with Hale.
Even back in the day of King/Gardiner (only one) and Mac playing.
From my perspective, thanks but no thanks and I don't rate him.
- Johnny Member
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 4157
- Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Wasn't a big wrap for McEvoy personally.
I'd always felt that he'd be a star when he grew up, and that he was a second string ruckman playing the role of a number 1 ruck.
I felt that if he was able to play the second ruck role, he'd be great and develop nicely into a star no. 1 ruckman.
But.....
In his last year with us I started to doubt he'd ever come good. Why? Because he was nowhere near as agile as he needed to be to be one of these mobile ruck men - yet nowhere near strong, big nor good enough to play the role of the big lumbering tap ruckman.
He still fumbled marks against smaller guys, and was rag dolled by the big guys.
So he was sort of stuck in limbo as to what type of ruckman he'd be, and I did start to wonder whether he ever be able to compete physically with the big boys.
I'd always felt that he'd be a star when he grew up, and that he was a second string ruckman playing the role of a number 1 ruck.
I felt that if he was able to play the second ruck role, he'd be great and develop nicely into a star no. 1 ruckman.
But.....
In his last year with us I started to doubt he'd ever come good. Why? Because he was nowhere near as agile as he needed to be to be one of these mobile ruck men - yet nowhere near strong, big nor good enough to play the role of the big lumbering tap ruckman.
He still fumbled marks against smaller guys, and was rag dolled by the big guys.
So he was sort of stuck in limbo as to what type of ruckman he'd be, and I did start to wonder whether he ever be able to compete physically with the big boys.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
the writing may have been on the wall in the closing games of 2013......hickey was being preferred....Johnny Member wrote:Wasn't a big wrap for McEvoy personally.
I'd always felt that he'd be a star when he grew up, and that he was a second string ruckman playing the role of a number 1 ruck.
I felt that if he was able to play the second ruck role, he'd be great and develop nicely into a star no. 1 ruckman.
But.....
In his last year with us I started to doubt he'd ever come good. Why? Because he was nowhere near as agile as he needed to be to be one of these mobile ruck men - yet nowhere near strong, big nor good enough to play the role of the big lumbering tap ruckman.
He still fumbled marks against smaller guys, and was rag dolled by the big guys.
So he was sort of stuck in limbo as to what type of ruckman he'd be, and I did start to wonder whether he ever be able to compete physically with the big boys.
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
I still don't rate mcevoy, nor do I rate his game on Friday. Remember he was versing Carlisle and Daniher in the ruck for basically the last half. He should of absolutely smashed the last half of that game.
Let's be honest he wasn't a ruck that fit into our side being such a poor tap ruckman. Our midfield is fairly young and not having a ruck that can tap to advantage just amplifies it's weaknesses. Hawthorn on the other hand don't need it too much with such a quality midfield. I think the trade was such a win for both sides when we ended up with Dunstan and Longer anyway. I don't rate immobile ruckman and if you've been watching longer's matches he's an absolute star in the making.
Not even bringing up Hickeys domination against GWS.
Let's be honest he wasn't a ruck that fit into our side being such a poor tap ruckman. Our midfield is fairly young and not having a ruck that can tap to advantage just amplifies it's weaknesses. Hawthorn on the other hand don't need it too much with such a quality midfield. I think the trade was such a win for both sides when we ended up with Dunstan and Longer anyway. I don't rate immobile ruckman and if you've been watching longer's matches he's an absolute star in the making.
Not even bringing up Hickeys domination against GWS.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Obs wrote:I still don't rate mcevoy, nor do I rate his game on Friday. Remember he was versing Carlisle and Daniher in the ruck for basically the last half. He should of absolutely smashed the last half of that game.
Let's be honest he wasn't a ruck that fit into our side being such a poor tap ruckman. Our midfield is fairly young and not having a ruck that can tap to advantage just amplifies it's weaknesses. Hawthorn on the other hand don't need it too much with such a quality midfield. I think the trade was such a win for both sides when we ended up with Dunstan and Longer anyway. I don't rate immobile ruckman and if you've been watching longer's matches he's an absolute star in the making.
Not even bringing up Hickeys domination against GWS.
Hickey as lost the tap outs in both games. he has had good games because of his around the ground work. Can we please forget about tap outs.
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 1733
- Joined: Mon 05 Apr 2004 1:49pm
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
When you say he lost the tap outs in both games do you mean hit outs or hit outs to advantage?plugger66 wrote:Obs wrote:I still don't rate mcevoy, nor do I rate his game on Friday. Remember he was versing Carlisle and Daniher in the ruck for basically the last half. He should of absolutely smashed the last half of that game.
Let's be honest he wasn't a ruck that fit into our side being such a poor tap ruckman. Our midfield is fairly young and not having a ruck that can tap to advantage just amplifies it's weaknesses. Hawthorn on the other hand don't need it too much with such a quality midfield. I think the trade was such a win for both sides when we ended up with Dunstan and Longer anyway. I don't rate immobile ruckman and if you've been watching longer's matches he's an absolute star in the making.
Not even bringing up Hickeys domination against GWS.
Hickey as lost the tap outs in both games. he has had good games because of his around the ground work. Can we please forget about tap outs.
I suspect a higher than normal percentage of Hickeys hitouts are to advantage. I haven't seen the stats though.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
I read somewhere that Hickey had 10 hitouts to advantage, the same amount as Mummy but obviously at a much higher percentage.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
james rose wrote:When you say he lost the tap outs in both games do you mean hit outs or hit outs to advantage?plugger66 wrote:Obs wrote:I still don't rate mcevoy, nor do I rate his game on Friday. Remember he was versing Carlisle and Daniher in the ruck for basically the last half. He should of absolutely smashed the last half of that game.
Let's be honest he wasn't a ruck that fit into our side being such a poor tap ruckman. Our midfield is fairly young and not having a ruck that can tap to advantage just amplifies it's weaknesses. Hawthorn on the other hand don't need it too much with such a quality midfield. I think the trade was such a win for both sides when we ended up with Dunstan and Longer anyway. I don't rate immobile ruckman and if you've been watching longer's matches he's an absolute star in the making.
Not even bringing up Hickeys domination against GWS.
Hickey as lost the tap outs in both games. he has had good games because of his around the ground work. Can we please forget about tap outs.
I suspect a higher than normal percentage of Hickeys hitouts are to advantage. I haven't seen the stats though.
No idea but that could be the second most overated stat. Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Have you every played footy, specifically a bit of midfield? Serious question.plugger66 wrote:james rose wrote:
When you say he lost the tap outs in both games do you mean hit outs or hit outs to advantage?
I suspect a higher than normal percentage of Hickeys hitouts are to advantage. I haven't seen the stats though.
No idea but that could be the second most overated stat. Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
- kosifantutti
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8581
- Joined: Fri 21 Jan 2005 9:06am
- Location: Back in town
- Has thanked: 526 times
- Been thanked: 1527 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
You quote this endlessly. Where does it come from?plugger66 wrote:
No idea but that could be the second most overated stat. Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
Re: big mac and the pelican...
kosifantutti wrote:You quote this endlessly. Where does it come from?plugger66 wrote:
No idea but that could be the second most overated stat. Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
From something i looked up last year when discussing this with 2 other posters. buggered if i know where it was from so you could have me if you actually want the site. I know it isnt the AFL site because they only have hit outs but not to advantage. And it wasnt a percentage figure, it was just numbers. percentage sort of means bugger all IMO. There are either 10 hit outs to advantage or there are 3. One might be 10% and other could be 12%. Id rather the 10 hits outs.
- kosifantutti
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8581
- Joined: Fri 21 Jan 2005 9:06am
- Location: Back in town
- Has thanked: 526 times
- Been thanked: 1527 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
As long as it came from somewhere on the internet, we know it must be true.plugger66 wrote:kosifantutti wrote:You quote this endlessly. Where does it come from?plugger66 wrote:
No idea but that could be the second most overated stat. Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
From something i looked up last year when discussing this with 2 other posters. buggered if i know where it was from so you could have me if you actually want the site. I know it isnt the AFL site because they only have hit outs but not to advantage. And it wasnt a percentage figure, it was just numbers. percentage sort of means bugger all IMO. There are either 10 hit outs to advantage or there are 3. One might be 10% and other could be 12%. Id rather the 10 hits outs.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
Re: big mac and the pelican...
kosifantutti wrote:As long as it came from somewhere on the internet, we know it must be true.plugger66 wrote:kosifantutti wrote: You quote this endlessly. Where does it come from?
From something i looked up last year when discussing this with 2 other posters. buggered if i know where it was from so you could have me if you actually want the site. I know it isnt the AFL site because they only have hit outs but not to advantage. And it wasnt a percentage figure, it was just numbers. percentage sort of means bugger all IMO. There are either 10 hit outs to advantage or there are 3. One might be 10% and other could be 12%. Id rather the 10 hits outs.
I know it was a stats site. got to trust something in this world. Maybe we won both GF in 09 and 10. I only read about that result on the internet.
- kosifantutti
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8581
- Joined: Fri 21 Jan 2005 9:06am
- Location: Back in town
- Has thanked: 526 times
- Been thanked: 1527 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Yes, but I can also google the 09 and 10 grand finals. I can't find these hitout to advantage stats you talk about.plugger66 wrote:
I know it was a stats site. got to trust something in this world. Maybe we won both GF in 09 and 10. I only read about that result on the internet.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
Re: big mac and the pelican...
kosifantutti wrote:Yes, but I can also google the 09 and 10 grand finals. I can't find these hitout to advantage stats you talk about.plugger66 wrote:
I know it was a stats site. got to trust something in this world. Maybe we won both GF in 09 and 10. I only read about that result on the internet.
Well I made it up then. Maybe I dreamt it.
Re: big mac and the pelican...
plugger66 wrote:kosifantutti wrote:Yes, but I can also google the 09 and 10 grand finals. I can't find these hitout to advantage stats you talk about.plugger66 wrote:
I know it was a stats site. got to trust something in this world. Maybe we won both GF in 09 and 10. I only read about that result on the internet.
Well I made it up then. Maybe I dreamt it.
Going to be a slow process but sam Jacobs was number one last year in hta. I think Minson was number 2 but not 100% sure. I will keep going. And I know these are only players and not a side.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3465
- Joined: Fri 29 Oct 2004 1:01pm
- Has thanked: 91 times
- Been thanked: 162 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
What's the statistical significance of the top-six? Is it that seven and eight both made the eight and excluding them is more dramatic? Four of the top-8 hitouts per game teams missed the 8 and Carlton got in through non winning means. Same with clearances - Carlton plus four non-finalists.plugger66 wrote:Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
Given than a HOA is a free clearance, I'd still prefer one to not, even if they don't directly correlate to wins. Raw hitouts don't count for much. For all Mumford's dominance in that area GWS still lost both the centre and stoppage clearances. You can equate it to midfield work rate, but GWS beat us at ground level over the course of the game. I think there's enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Hickey's taps were pretty good and Mumford's were not.
Yeah nah pleasing positive
Re: big mac and the pelican...
vacuous space wrote:What's the statistical significance of the top-six? Is it that seven and eight both made the eight and excluding them is more dramatic? Four of the top-8 hitouts per game teams missed the 8 and Carlton got in through non winning means. Same with clearances - Carlton plus four non-finalists.plugger66 wrote:Last year out of the top 6 hit outs to advantage only one side made the finals.
Given than a HOA is a free clearance, I'd still prefer one to not, even if they don't directly correlate to wins. Raw hitouts don't count for much. For all Mumford's dominance in that area GWS still lost both the centre and stoppage clearances. You can equate it to midfield work rate, but GWS beat us at ground level over the course of the game. I think there's enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Hickey's taps were pretty good and Mumford's were not.
Well even based on hit outs to advantage someone said it was 10 all so clearly they were both level. Percentages doesnt matter. Hickey beat him clearly around the ground. Just about the only thing that matters with ruckmen. And yes of course I picked the first since because 7th and 8th made the finals. if you are going to argue a point you obviously use stats that help your case. And of course people would want to win hit out to advantage but thats my point, they dont correlate to wins.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3465
- Joined: Fri 29 Oct 2004 1:01pm
- Has thanked: 91 times
- Been thanked: 162 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Usually an argument is based on evidence rather than tailoring evidence to suit an argument. Misrepresenting data is intellectually dishonest. You gave the impression that the correlation between winning and HOA was less than it actually is.plugger66 wrote:if you are going to argue a point you obviously use stats that help your case.
Yeah nah pleasing positive
Re: big mac and the pelican...
vacuous space wrote:Usually an argument is based on evidence rather than tailoring evidence to suit an argument. Misrepresenting data is intellectually dishonest. You gave the impression that the correlation between winning and HOA was less than it actually is.plugger66 wrote:if you are going to argue a point you obviously use stats that help your case.
What are you talking about? I just stopped the stats after the top 6 sides in HTA. Should I say out of the top 18 sides in HTA only 8 made the finals? You have to stop somewhere and I stopped at the top 6 sides in HTA. There is no misrepresenting data there at all. Every single person who uses stats to prove some sort of point uses them in a way to help what they are discussing. I would have thought in an 18 team comp 6 was a fair sample. if you want 8 then 3 made the finals. Still proves that HTA doesnt really help sides.
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Love your work Elvis.elvis lives wrote:Or an 80s US cop show staring Scott Baostinger wrote:Con Gorozidis wrote:Stinger - you raise an interesting point.
Pelican was fixated with his plan to get 3 picks inside 20 but would Macca and Nds got us Boyd ?
It's possible. Which would have left us with Boyd, Billings + pick 23 - pretty interesting proposition .
All speculative I guess.
On another note - the title to this thread sounds like a great Children's Book.![]()
Scott Baio as a happy go lucky bachelor and Florida detective whose best friend and chief 'wingman' with the ladies is a pelican.
Could also be a truck movie starring Burt Reynolds.
Or a childrens book set in some windswept down and out fishing village somewhere either in Sth Australia or Western Australia about a kid seeks an escape from the harsh realities of life with a drunkard (but well meaning) father who is often away on luckless fishing trips .
- desertsaint
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 10404
- Joined: Sun 27 Apr 2008 2:02pm
- Location: out there
- Has thanked: 186 times
- Been thanked: 701 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
HTA obviously help sides - the whole point of rucking. Next time try to find the raw data - total HTAs, not %s. % mean diddly without the data behind them. I.e. 100% of all people I have met today were saints supporters - had the day off sick with my son.
As you say plug, total HTAs are far more important - think it was 11 to 10 Mumford's way. Decent effort by Hickey against a very good ruckman - swan's will regret letting him go.
As you say plug, total HTAs are far more important - think it was 11 to 10 Mumford's way. Decent effort by Hickey against a very good ruckman - swan's will regret letting him go.
"The starting point of all achievement is desire. "
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 6582
- Joined: Sat 11 Jun 2011 4:52pm
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 1276 times
- Been thanked: 464 times
Re: big mac and the pelican...
What would you rather have, a ruckman that can tap the ball to one of our player's advantage or one that just wins the tap but just hits it onto the ground? Correlating it back to not winning games is pointless as the mid fielders or the forward lines may be crap.
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
Re: big mac and the pelican...
Jacks Back wrote:What would you rather have, a ruckman that can tap the ball to one of our player's advantage or one that just wins the tap but just hits it onto the ground? Correlating it back to not winning games is pointless as the mid fielders or the forward lines may be crap.
And thats why i used the stats about teams makinjg the finals. I would think their midfields is ok. And Id rather have a ruckmen kick 3 goals or take 5 or so contested marks than either of the things you mentioned.