Why you shouldn't mess with the footy gods...

[sunsaint]

Why is it assumed that we would have won the Premiership if Maxy played and if Ball played a full game??

TH I respect your opinion but you are really grasping at thin air .... Footy Gods?? .... Karma?? .... the idea of this is not anchored in reality - our drop in form has nothing to do with Maxy or Ball

It's 'the vibe'.

that can come back to bite you in the arse.
that was the whole point of the OP, (and yes it was a gang attack response.) it seems to be the norm

but back to the OP
tell me that there are not rumblings this week over ot crow land that the treatment of tyson edwards has been sloppy and disrespectful
you dont treat club warriors like that.
cue posters "it is not a welfare system...footy is a tough, winning is more important, etc"
the OP's point about how the club treated Cousins, Max, Ball, (and im going to throw in "1 more game" Maguire) is valid.
If you are looking to find a reason for the drop in form??? Then look no further than the metaphysical, superstitious pre-game routines, as the body hasnt changed its all in the head!
of course there is a footy god, you might not believe in it, but if you dont then that defies all logic as well.
ask yourself this question, why do you worship the red white & black religion over the others.

[Mr Magic]

Deleted

[SainterK]

MB, you have been misinformed, this article is more accurate in it's conclusion than when the story was first run on pure heresay.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... 5871765703

I don't want to have an opinion on the players involved, I just wanted to help clear up a misconception.

I must admit though MB, I am also curious whether you are in fact implying that the culture of the club has been impacted by the departure and retirement of the players mentioned in the OP?

[markp]

Why is it assumed that we would have won the Premiership if Maxy played and if Ball played a full game??

TH I respect your opinion but you are really grasping at thin air .... Footy Gods?? .... Karma?? .... the idea of this is not anchored in reality - our drop in form has nothing to do with Maxy or Ball

It's 'the vibe'.

that can come back to bite you in the arse.
that was the whole point of the OP, (and yes it was a gang attack response.) it seems to be the norm

but back to the OP
tell me that there are not rumblings this week over ot crow land that the treatment of tyson edwards has been sloppy and disrespectful
you dont treat club warriors like that.
cue posters "it is not a welfare system...footy is a tough, winning is more important, etc"
the OP's point about how the club treated Cousins, Max, Ball, (and im going to throw in "1 more game" Maguire) is valid.
If you are looking to find a reason for the drop in form??? Then look no further than the metaphysical, superstitious pre-game routines, as the body hasnt changed its all in the head!
of course there is a footy god, you might not believe in it, but if you dont then that defies all logic as well.
ask yourself this question, why do you worship the red white & black religion over the others.

Oh lordy.

The OP states:

I have no doubt that the Saints messed with the soul and fabric of the club

What 'soul and fabric' is that?... the one that has seen us as comfortably one of the least successful clubs in the history of the game? How dare we mess with that winning formula!

So we should pick players on sentiment now?... for GF teams, no less.... Forget that under this new, heartless, footy-god-messing-with regime we have come closer to a flag than we had in nearly half a century.

You're right, it's time to turn on the coach and board... that'll put us back in our rightful position.

As for the Ball sham... there are now reports of a rift between Ablett and Thompson, criticism of his defensive play, etc... you watch this grow as the season drags on. No way in hell if he goes to GC will the line from his people be that it was because of the money... it's like a girlfriend freezing you out and withholding favours, then say she's leaving you because you're always p1ssed off with her.

[twirlyhair]

Hi there. Below is a selection of what has been said about me. So that I didn't embarrass anyone, I havent included your names. p.s. some of these are quite humorous I must say!

Grow some balls you pathetic squib.
You look like a complete tool
You sir, are an oxygen thief of the highest order, and the sort of spineless jellyfish that is normally indicative of a filth supporter.
My, you're quite a loser, aren't you
Depends - is the odour something like rancid pig s*** ??? If that's the smell, then yep, I reckon it's a feral supporter.
I'm not on any team that involves this clown
As for 'keyboard heros', how long do you think Twirly would last talking like this to your face? (could be considered a threat?)
Twirlybrain more likely (one of my favourites)

After reading these as they appeared, I reacted and responded. I am so sorry for saying this and hurting your feelings.

Little man
I have put more money into the club than you will ever see.

p.s. if i have missed any, Im sure you will let me know!

Shall we call the headmaster in to help us??

Tissue princess?

LOL...hey what happened to your Armitage thread?

[meher baba]

At least none of those draft picks brought our club into disrepute: a situation that has now been worsened by the two dunderheads who hit on the 16 year old (not illegal, but the footbal group sex culture cannot be tolerated by our club given our past troubles with it).

You've managed to link your disapproval of Drain with this sad and sordid tale?

In case the news hasn't yet arrived in Tasmania, there is absolutely no credible allegation of what you have just suggested occured.
There was no group sex alleged. Nobody has even raised the possibility of 'group sex'. Even those involved in publicizing this admit that there were separate liaisons, weeks apart.

Unbelievable!

OK, well I didn't realise that the allegation was that the liaisons between the girl and each of our players were weeks apart. So fair cop, I was wrong.

However, I definitely draw a connection between this recent incident and the decision to recruit Lovett (which I continue to blame on Drain, although I really don't know who made the final decision and I might be being a bit unfair towards him).

For a long time, and certainly since the events of 2004 (not to mention Gehrig's subsequent indiscretion), our club has been walking on shaky ground in terms of the public perception of the respect for women demonstrated by our playing group. Lovett was a proven disrespecter of women, and we all know what is alleged to have happened when he got to our club. The incident on Xmas Eve not only threw into serious question our decision to recruit him, but also possibly how we managed him at the club. One also wonders about the broader context in which the alleged incident took place.

Now we have a case in which two of our players have allegedly had unprotected sex with a barely legal and psychologically vulnerable girl (and they are damn lucky that she was over 16, because they clearly didn't have a clue how old she actually was).

Put it all together, it presents a really unattractive picture of our club in 2010.

If I were in Westaway's or Nettlefold's position right now, I'd be looking at reading the riot act to the playing group. They need to work on a culture of supporting each other to relate in an adult way to members of the opposite sex. Yes, there are presumably girls throwing themselves at them left, right and centre. I think, as the current controversy indicates, what one might be best able to say about those girls is not so much that "you don't know where they've been" as "you know only too well where they have been". You might be tempted to go there, but the risks (including the health risks) certainly aren't worth the momentary pleasure.

These blokes are (or aspire to be) successful as professional footballers over the long term. So they need to adopt a professional attitude. Go and get themselves steady girlfriends who are approximately the same age as they are.

Call me old fashioned..............

It's amazing what you'll discover if you go looking to interpret scenarios to support your pre-conceived notions.

I have the perception that you seem to be less than enamoured with those in positions of power at the Club since Mr Morality got the sack?

I might be wrong about your opinion but it's my perception of your view.
Have I got it correct?

I'd be absolutely gob-smacked if you actually knew any of the details about any of the incidents, and yet you have no problem in reaching the conclusions you have.
Do you know what the CLub/Admin/Players have done in the community that's positive? Do you actually care if/that they do?

As regards to this particular incident which seems to have raised your ire about our 'culture', maybe you could suggest that all players get a 'police check' on any women who they meet/speak to before they decide to go any further?

Oh, and what do you consider is age appropriate for a 17/18 year old male?

How would you go about meeting a prospective long-term girlfriend? Ask her for 'proof' of her age before you'll consider dating her?

But my response to you on this is really just a complete waste of time.
You're not really interested in reading a response that is at odds with your perceptions, are you?

I cannot believe that even though you were totally wrong in your assertion about the players being involved in a 'group sex encounter', you don't feel the need to delete that scurrilous portion of your post?
Probably becasuse the assertion allows you to somehow connect it to your real gripe - Drain's alleged involvement in recruiting Lovett?

BTW, if you remove it from your original post I'll certainly remove it from my responses.

Personally I think it is a disgraceful unwarranted false allegation that does nothing but unfairly besmirch the character of 2 young Saints players.
But that's just my opinion - one you don't obviously share.

Settle down MM, I'll remove it from my post, no worries.

[Mr Magic]

Settle down MM, I'll remove it from my post, no worries.

great!
I already removed your quote from my post.

[meher baba]

BTW, MM, I reckon Lyon, Westaway, Nettlefold and others are generally doing a terrific job. The overall administration at the club is clearly better now (far more united, and other strengths) than the previous one.

So you are wrong to suggest that I am carrying a torch for "Mr Morality" (by whom I assume you must mean GT, as the term seems quite inapplicable to Butterss or Waldron).

My only significant objection to the current regime is what I perceive as an unhealthy obsession with recycling players who've played AFL at other clubs rather than continuing to develop those we get through the draft.

I believe this obsession came unstuck big time in the 2009 trade period, in which we used virtually all our draft picks on recycled players, one of whom came unstuck big time. Meanwhile, we let go three stalwarts who, IMO, all had a fair bit to offer.

I accept that there are other possible (and strongly held) views on this issue areound the forum, particuarly on the departure of Ball. However, on balance, I believe that the club ended up trying to be a bit too clever with list management and has ended up shooting itself in the foot: perhaps not catastrophically (ie, we could still win the flag this year), but significantly.

I have tended to pin the blame on Matthew Drain, mainly because he was unwise enough (IMO) to get out in the media a lot last year to tell them all how clever he was in personally picking out players like Ray and Dawson to bring to the club. He also associated himself big time with the Lovett recruitment.

I suspect I'm being a bit unfair to Drain, who might be guilty of little more than being overly eager to big-note himself about decisions which were actually taken by a group rather than him personally.

In terms of the "sexual culture" question: I'm not at all sure how to assess how it has been managed at our club. It might have been, in some senses, managed very well by the current administration.

Unfortunately, for whatever reasons, we have been all over the media his year in relation to sexual issues. So our management of culture at the club has not been at all effective in terms of how it is perceived in the public arena.

So, even if we don't need to do things any differently, we urgently need to be seen to be doing things differently. Our brand has undoubtedly been further damaged.

Finally, just a question (no agenda). I have trawled back through the media on this and I can't find any denials of group sex, only consistent statements that the sex was consensual. So have I missed something (in which case please provide a link) or is your information that the encounters were separated by weeks based on inside information, in which case it's a bit unfair to keep having a go at me about it.

[Mr Magic]

Finally, just a question (no agenda). I have trawled back through the media on this and I can't find any denials of group sex, only consistent statements that the sex was consensual. So have I missed something (in which case please provide a link) or is your information that the encounters were separated by weeks based on inside information, in which case it's a bit unfair to keep having a go at me about it.

Tim Watson on SEN 'broke the story' that has been universally accepted as being closest to accurate.

He took a telephone call off-air and repeated (without names) it on air.
He was a tpains to state that the girl 'hooked up' (my words not his) with one player at the after match event in Sydney (a licensed venue where you had to provide proof of age to enter) and with teh other player some weeks later when back in Melbourne.

He also stated that the girl had identified herself as being from the AIS and 18 years old.
He also reported that the girl's own facebook page stated she was 19 years old.

Like some others I have received emails purporting to know facts about her and including a photograph.
Can I attest to their veracity - no.
Do I trust where they came from - yes.

Let me finish with this question of you.
Given the Hun's propensity for salacious headlines, do you believe they'd miss an opportunity to 'go hard' if the story about 'group sex' had even a skerrick of truth about it?
Given the history?

I don't think so.

[SainterK]

MB, you have been misinformed, this article is more accurate in it's conclusion than when the story was first run on pure heresay.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... 5871765703

I don't want to have an opinion on the players involved, I just wanted to help clear up a misconception.

I must admit though MB, I am also curious whether you are in fact implying that the culture of the club has been impacted by the departure and retirement of the players mentioned in the OP?

It's all in the link above MB

[meher baba]

Thanks MM and SainterK.

That clarifies it. Over and out from me on this topic.

[aussierules0k]

[saintsRrising]

Thanks MM and SainterK.

That clarifies it. Over and out from me on this topic.

Not quite. Why all the Drain bashing?

Non-playing staff are interviewed regularly. ie over the years JB was interviewed off an on.

You may have also discerned a pattern too about off-field staff. When a club is going really well the media tend to be all over the Club....and all at the club start being interviewed as the media jumps on the banfwagon looking for stories.

Like JB..he was often interviewed when the Saints we hot...and the media were looking for angles as to why..

No doubt there is an element of humna nature in it as well in that if things are going really well that you are more likely to accet being interviewed about it.

No different than Drain.

Also it pays to remember that there are more AFL registered media reps than there are AFL players and that they are all hungry for stories.

[rodgerfox]

Thanks MM and SainterK.

That clarifies it. Over and out from me on this topic.

Not quite. Why all the Drain bashing?

Non-playing staff are interviewed regularly. ie over the years JB was interviewed off an on.

You may have also discerned a pattern too about off-field staff. When a club is going really well the media tend to be all over the Club....and all at the club start being interviewed as the media jumps on the banfwagon looking for stories.

Like JB..he was often interviewed when the Saints we hot...and the media were looking for angles as to why..

No doubt there is an element of humna nature in it as well in that if things are going really well that you are more likely to accet being interviewed about it.

No different than Drain.

Also it pays to remember that there are more AFL registered media reps than there are AFL players and that they are all hungry for stories.

I think MB is more referring to the keenness of Drain to claim personal glory during these interviews.

[Mr Magic]

tell me that there are not rumblings this week over ot crow land that the treatment of tyson edwards has been sloppy and disrespectful
you dont treat club warriors like that.

During half time of the bummer V dog game tonight, both Harley and the other player/compare (forget who) noted Edwards and mentioned "tearing at the FABRIC" of the club. Both said something along your lines sunsaint... "you dont treat club warriors like that".
Right on que for this thread.

Are you suggesting the treatment of Max, Ball, X and Goose was similar to the treatment of Tyson Edwards at Adelaide?

If not, why raise it as an example?
Did Max quit in a huff when it was made perfectly obvious to him he was not going to get back in the team (unless catastrophic injuries occured)?

Ball left us - we didn't sack him. We may argue over his reason(s) for leaving, but let there be no doubt he left us.

X got an offer from Brisbane that was twice as long as we were prepared to offer him and we arranged a trade for him. How was that disrespecting him?
Goose I don't recall the exact circumstances re his delisting.

As for the OP, that is purely one posters' opinion.
Personally I think it is emotional claptrap posted when the WCE game looked like going to shyte, but that's just my opinion.

[aussierules0k]

[degruch]

The OP isn't just one posters' opinion.
Hence the thread is still alive.

Relatively speaking, it's about 0.13333% of a persons opinion.

The thread has been kept alive due to agro (no, not cowboy18), not the subject matter.

[meher baba]

saintsRrising

Yes, perhaps Drain didn't seek much of the exposure he got.

But, to make myself clear, I'm not particularly critical of him for taking the opportunity to big-note himself: we are all guilty of that from time to time in our professional careers (it rarely pays to be humble, other than to avoid outshining a powerful patron).

My concern was that, as list manager, Drain appeared to rate himself very much in terms of his ability to spot players from
other clubs who we could snare through trades or the various drafts. Goodness knows, we've picked up a heap of them in his time at the club: far more, I suspect, than any of our competitors.

Obviously, a good player is a good player, regardless of where you get them. But, at our club, recycling seems to have become something of an obsession. In the last three and a half seasons, the only AFL debutant who has become a regular first-team player at our club is CJ. And he was a
mature age recruit from the WAFL.

The likes of Attard, Birss, Gardi, M Clarke, C Gardiner, King, Schneider, Dempster, Ray, Dawson, J Smith, Patterson have all made a contribution to our club's performances over that time. But all of them, plus Lovett, have served to block opportunities for young players coming through.

Considered individually, the majority of these recruitment decisions look ok. But cumulatively, they are starting to look a bit like overuse of a one-track strategy. And, for me, the arrival of Lovett, Smith and Patterson and the simultaneous departure of Ball, Maguire and X was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Most of these recruitment actions

[twirlyhair]

tell me that there are not rumblings this week over ot crow land that the treatment of tyson edwards has been sloppy and disrespectful
you dont treat club warriors like that.

During half time of the bummer V dog game tonight, both Harley and the other player/compare (forget who) noted Edwards and mentioned "tearing at the FABRIC" of the club. Both said something along your lines sunsaint... "you dont treat club warriors like that".
Right on que for this thread.

Are you suggesting the treatment of Max, Ball, X and Goose was similar to the treatment of Tyson Edwards at Adelaide?

If not, why raise it as an example?
Did Max quit in a huff when it was made perfectly obvious to him he was not going to get back in the team (unless catastrophic injuries occured)?

Ball left us - we didn't sack him. We may argue over his reason(s) for leaving, but let there be no doubt he left us.

X got an offer from Brisbane that was twice as long as we were prepared to offer him and we arranged a trade for him. How was that disrespecting him?
Goose I don't recall the exact circumstances re his delisting.

As for the OP, that is purely one posters' opinion.
Personally I think it is emotional claptrap posted when the WCE game looked like going to shyte, but that's just my opinion.

No your wrong. You may think it is claptrap, but with the discussions that have been taking place, clearly it is not. As for the timing of my original post. it makes no dif to my thoughts. Whether we are winning or losing, we should always be talking about club culture. This is particularly relevant now with the disclosure that Saints players were involved in the circulation of innapropriate photos. Once again, we go into a game in which some players will have been distracted by external issues. Its not good enough.

[Mr Magic]

tell me that there are not rumblings this week over ot crow land that the treatment of tyson edwards has been sloppy and disrespectful
you dont treat club warriors like that.

During half time of the bummer V dog game tonight, both Harley and the other player/compare (forget who) noted Edwards and mentioned "tearing at the FABRIC" of the club. Both said something along your lines sunsaint... "you dont treat club warriors like that".
Right on que for this thread.

Are you suggesting the treatment of Max, Ball, X and Goose was similar to the treatment of Tyson Edwards at Adelaide?

If not, why raise it as an example?
Did Max quit in a huff when it was made perfectly obvious to him he was not going to get back in the team (unless catastrophic injuries occured)?

Ball left us - we didn't sack him. We may argue over his reason(s) for leaving, but let there be no doubt he left us.

X got an offer from Brisbane that was twice as long as we were prepared to offer him and we arranged a trade for him. How was that disrespecting him?
Goose I don't recall the exact circumstances re his delisting.

As for the OP, that is purely one posters' opinion.
Personally I think it is emotional claptrap posted when the WCE game looked like going to shyte, but that's just my opinion.

No your wrong. You may think it is claptrap, but with the discussions that have been taking place, clearly it is not. As for the timing of my original post. it makes no dif to my thoughts. Whether we are winning or losing, we should always be talking about club culture. This is particularly relevant now with the disclosure that Saints players were involved in the circulation of innapropriate photos. Once again, we go into a game in which some players will have been distracted by external issues. Its not good enough.

What disclosure?

And whether I'm right or wrong is only your opinion - which I don't necessarily agree with or accept.
Surely I'm entitled to differ from you in my opinion?

[twirlyhair]

tell me that there are not rumblings this week over ot crow land that the treatment of tyson edwards has been sloppy and disrespectful
you dont treat club warriors like that.

During half time of the bummer V dog game tonight, both Harley and the other player/compare (forget who) noted Edwards and mentioned "tearing at the FABRIC" of the club. Both said something along your lines sunsaint... "you dont treat club warriors like that".
Right on que for this thread.

Are you suggesting the treatment of Max, Ball, X and Goose was similar to the treatment of Tyson Edwards at Adelaide?

If not, why raise it as an example?
Did Max quit in a huff when it was made perfectly obvious to him he was not going to get back in the team (unless catastrophic injuries occured)?

Ball left us - we didn't sack him. We may argue over his reason(s) for leaving, but let there be no doubt he left us.

X got an offer from Brisbane that was twice as long as we were prepared to offer him and we arranged a trade for him. How was that disrespecting him?
Goose I don't recall the exact circumstances re his delisting.

As for the OP, that is purely one posters' opinion.
Personally I think it is emotional claptrap posted when the WCE game looked like going to shyte, but that's just my opinion.

No your wrong. You may think it is claptrap, but with the discussions that have been taking place, clearly it is not. As for the timing of my original post. it makes no dif to my thoughts. Whether we are winning or losing, we should always be talking about club culture. This is particularly relevant now with the disclosure that Saints players were involved in the circulation of innapropriate photos. Once again, we go into a game in which some players will have been distracted by external issues. Its not good enough.

What disclosure?

And whether I'm right or wrong is only your opinion - which I don't necessarily agree with or accept.
Surely I'm entitled to differ from you in my opinion?

Yes your right. You are entitled to differ in opinion about the actual issue. However you are wrong to make a judgment about what I was thinking. To say that I was only posting when the 'WCE game was going to shyte'' is wrong. The timing of my OP is irrelevant. Like I said, winning or losing is not the issue. Club culture is. As for the disclosure - http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/playe ... -wlkg.html
Cheers.

[Mr Magic]

[

Yes your right. You are entitled to differ in opinion about the actual issue. However you are wrong to make a judgment about what I was thinking. To say that I was only posting when the 'WCE game was going to shyte'' is wrong. The timing of my OP is irrelevant. Like I said, winning or losing is not the issue. Club culture is. As for the disclosure - http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/playe ... -wlkg.html
Cheers.

Thanks for the link - I received a copy of the photograph which originated from a former Geelong/Swans player who claimed to know girls who knew 'the girl' and they had passed on the photgraph - no Saints players involved.
Given that the article quotes all sort of places where this email is being disseminated from, how do you feel about the AFLPA and those other organizations mentioned?
Given that Luke Ball was/is? an executive member of the AFLPA, is he responsible for tearing the moral fabric of that organization because they are apparently diseminating the email?
Of course he's not, which is my point entirely.

As you may well know, I take great exception at anybody unfairly tarnishing our Club, players and staff over rumour/innuendo/outright falsehoods/opinions masquerading as factual statements.

By all means blame them for things that they have done wrong but in this case to try and connect totally separate events to support your own perspective is, IMO, just plain wrong.

As for my perception, well I thought the timing of your post was interesting to say the least.
Just a co-incidence?

I'm also amazed that you haven't felt warm and fuzzy enough over the years to start a thread on some of the wonderful things being done out there in the Community by Saints players and staff.

Those things could quite rightly be considfered creating a good culture.

[markp]

Like I said, winning or losing is not the issue. Club culture is.

What specific aspect of our Club's culture are you concerned about?

Should we pick players on sentiment?... for a GF??

IMO we did the right thing by X and Goose, Max's body was very suspect, and Ball wanted too much money and walked.

Half of Melbourne has seen that facebook photo (as have I), and to single out Saints players is ridiculous.

[Dan Warna]

[twirlyhair]

[

Yes your right. You are entitled to differ in opinion about the actual issue. However you are wrong to make a judgment about what I was thinking. To say that I was only posting when the 'WCE game was going to shyte'' is wrong. The timing of my OP is irrelevant. Like I said, winning or losing is not the issue. Club culture is. As for the disclosure - http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/playe ... -wlkg.html
Cheers.

Thanks for the link - I received a copy of the photograph which originated from a former Geelong/Swans player who claimed to know girls who knew 'the girl' and they had passed on the photgraph - no Saints players involved.
Given that the article quotes all sort of places where this email is being disseminated from, how do you feel about the AFLPA and those other organizations mentioned?
Given that Luke Ball was/is? an executive member of the AFLPA, is he responsible for tearing the moral fabric of that organization because they are apparently diseminating the email?
Of course he's not, which is my point entirely.

As you may well know, I take great exception at anybody unfairly tarnishing our Club, players and staff over rumour/innuendo/outright falsehoods/opinions masquerading as factual statements.

By all means blame them for things that they have done wrong but in this case to try and connect totally separate events to support your own perspective is, IMO, just plain wrong.

As for my perception, well I thought the timing of your post was interesting to say the least.
Just a co-incidence?

I'm also amazed that you haven't felt warm and fuzzy enough over the years to start a thread on some of the wonderful things being done out there in the Community by Saints players and staff.

Those things could quite rightly be considfered creating a good culture.

Yeah your absolutely right. The saints have done alot for communities and deserve the kudos. And yes, our culture at the club has improved dramatically, particularly under the current regime. Having said that, and in the words of Ross Lyon, we are a good club, not yet a great club. And that is where I want us to get too. Therefore, I believe it is our right as paid up members, to question, challenge and debate decisions that the club makes. In my opinion, in 2004, we were a better team than Geelong, with a list that was capable of doing what they have. But they achieved success, and we didn't. Through the debacle of the Grant Thomas/Butterrs regime, we have been forced to rebuild under Lyon at a time when we should have been winning flags. He got us so close last year, and I was so impressed with how professional we were. And then came this year. A year in which we have suffered set back after set back. Some of it has been due to lack of luck, and some of it is due to poor decision making, by both the admin. and players alike. To wake up and see that your team is on the front page of the paper with headlines about players sending lewd pictures of a school girl does not make me happy (and if everyone else is doing it, it doesn't make it right!). Geelong today was making headlines for winning, unearthing a 28 year fullforward and looking at a third premiership. Call it what you like, but culture/fabric/decision making is handmade. It doesnt depend upon luck.