Raph Clarke

[starsign]

Raph was a good contributer in our gutsy team win last night

Having said that I agree with many of the posters in this thread, in particular those who are genuinly offering constuctive criticism in some of the areas in RCs game needing improvement.

At present he appears a liability in defence due to his innability to quickly take the 1st option, and its not a case of "not having a football brain"as someone offered
(This has been religiously drilled and instilled into the current Geelong side, and if you watch them closely when they running hot you'l see it)
The modern game is now based on it and its a case of playing the percentages Without going into the finer points it greatly outweighs its flip side, which is taking time to weigh up and select your best option ,particularly when under pressure in the back half.
Raph has some obvious skills which others have spelt out and I agree.
I also believe he will be far more suited down forward, but if in our present situation re injuries he has to be played back cos he remains our very next best , then so be it ...but I for one hope damn not!
I thought he was a chance to play forward when he came in Sat night after hearing he kicked a few for Casey and spent a good deal of time practicing goal kicking during the week!

Also he needs to work on keeping his feet more often. He has a regular habit of making a diving tackle at an attacking player just within finger-tip reach,only to fall over out of the contest,to watch the opponent run on free as a bird...(not sure about last night but generally does it each week)

[saintsRrising]

Well...with it looking like Goose being out for an extended period....we really need Raph to reduce his error rate.

[Sobraz]

As Joffa mentioned in an earlier post, there is a serious agenda against Raph, and the vast majority of it is unfair bias...

He stuffs up every now and again, sure, but he does a number of good things that seem to be ignored, and as with last night, IMO his good outweighs his bad...

Who was it that handballed it to Harvs to set-up his second goal... Thats right...Raph... Contested possession that was clean and evidently, ignored, as is all his other good work..

My main point is however, IMO Raph should never be played in the backline again... He doesnt have the defensive presance to be able to hold a player down.. He is a free wheeling highly skilled player who should be used in offensive positions...

Throwing him to the wolves again last night in defence after qtr time is just unfair and not an indication of his abilities..

Much like Gram he is an attacking player, and as I saw it Gram had a far worse game than Raph, yet is excused yet again??!!?...

Give him time up forward and centre and he will flourish..

[Huzzad]

You people weren't watching the game.

Raph was in our top ten tonight.

There is a real agenda going on with Raph.

He could have a 40 possession game kick 5 goals make ten tackles and you blokes would still pot him.

Pitiful.

Nah we won't pot him, becuase that will never happen.

[OneEyedSainter77]

As Joffa mentioned in an earlier post, there is a serious agenda against Raph, and the vast majority of it is unfair bias...

He stuffs up every now and again, sure, but he does a number of good things that seem to be ignored, and as with last night, IMO his good outweighs his bad...

Who was it that handballed it to Harvs to set-up his second goal... Thats right...Raph... Contested possession that was clean and evidently, ignored, as is all his other good work..

My main point is however, IMO Raph should never be played in the backline again... He doesnt have the defensive presance to be able to hold a player down.. He is a free wheeling highly skilled player who should be used in offensive positions...

Throwing him to the wolves again last night in defence after qtr time is just unfair and not an indication of his abilities..

Much like Gram he is an attacking player, and as I saw it Gram had a far worse game than Raph, yet is excused yet again??!!?...

Give him time up forward and centre and he will flourish..

Agree. I think he is too much of a liabilty down back and he should play in our forward line instead. The forward line and the midfield are too important to put error-ridden players into. Isn't this why we dropped Fiora and Clint Jones.

Put Raph on a forward flank. If this fails after say a few weeks, then it might be time to drop him.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I didn't see the game until yesterday on tape. By then I'd swung by here and seen a thread already at 3 pages on Raph, and so I was expecting a Raph Clarke clangerfest...

What on earth is everyone so worked up about? Raph was good. He fell over at one point, and he got set up for a holding the ball by a handball while standing still from a teammate. Other than that, he ran hard. He used the ball well. He tackled hard. He's not in danger of getting brownlow votes or anything, but on the balance of what was on the TV, the good definately outweighed the bad.

Yet here on Saintsational we've got 5 pages demanding his head.

[groupie1]

weird guy to have a go at - i don't understand the Raph bashers. couldn't see class through the CLean end of your ASS

[joffaboy]

I didn't see the game until yesterday on tape. By then I'd swung by here and seen a thread already at 3 pages on Raph, and so I was expecting a Raph Clarke clangerfest...

What on earth is everyone so worked up about? Raph was good. He fell over at one point, and he got set up for a holding the ball by a handball while standing still from a teammate. Other than that, he ran hard. He used the ball well. He tackled hard. He's not in danger of getting brownlow votes or anything, but on the balance of what was on the TV, the good definately outweighed the bad.

Yet here on Saintsational we've got 5 pages demanding his head.

It is an agenda. Many just bias, some with a more serious agenda.

X used to cop this type of crap as well.

Join the dots..............................................

[Mr Magic]

I have just finished watching the replay for the first time ( I was at the game) and he was nowhere near our worst player.

I reckon his indecisivenss was much less than it was before his stint in the VFL.

He seemed to be playing with 'more confidence' and also seemed to be taking the first option more often.

[Huzzad]

I have just finished watching the replay for the first time ( I was at the game) and he was nowhere near our worst player.

I reckon his indecisivenss was much less than it was before his stint in the VFL.

He seemed to be playing with 'more confidence' and also seemed to be taking the first option more often.

Yes....all for taking the opposition on...if you can evade them.

Also noticed it was Raph who was the one who kicked it to a three-on-two in the dying seconds instead of an open player and forced the turnover....thank god Jack missed

[NeXus James]

He had many great possessions and disposals to the advantage of his teammates. Why do you lot only see the negatives?

Spot on Bernard. Raph will be a great player when he has 100 games under his belt. He does make glaring errors at times but he is the type of player that will keep improving until his late 20's. He has the the perfect build to be an outstanding player. All he needs is games under his belt and he could be a devastating running half back. Imagine in 3 years time, we will have Gilbert on one half back flank and Raph on the other with both having 100 games under their belt. Throw in Goddard and Sam Fisher and we will have the most attacking backline in the League. Not to mention Gram who is peobably the most devastating running back of them all.

[meher baba]

I didn't see the game until yesterday on tape. By then I'd swung by here and seen a thread already at 3 pages on Raph, and so I was expecting a Raph Clarke clangerfest...

What on earth is everyone so worked up about? Raph was good. He fell over at one point, and he got set up for a holding the ball by a handball while standing still from a teammate. Other than that, he ran hard. He used the ball well. He tackled hard. He's not in danger of getting brownlow votes or anything, but on the balance of what was on the TV, the good definately outweighed the bad.

Yet here on Saintsational we've got 5 pages demanding his head.

It is an agenda. Many just bias, some with a more serious agenda.

X used to cop this type of crap as well.

Join the dots..............................................

Sad to say, I think you are right about this JB in the case of some posters.

However, there is also a bit of a pack mentality on this forum: a tendency to swarm around some underperforming players waiting for the anticipated kill (TS 40, Murray, Powell, even Brett Voss and Thommo - and more recently Milne, Blake, Fiora, Raph, Gwilt, etc.)

Some posters on here are over-excited about trade week at the expense of just about everything else. From about the second round of the NAB cup, all that they seem to want to post about is "we will never win with these players in the team, trade them, delist them, sack them, kill them, promote the rookies, etc.). Then, from about round 11, they start threads which suggest that the club should arange trades for these same allegedly hopeless players for good players at other clubs.

I am afraid that I have never understood this psychology. I remain optimistic about almost all of our list and am always expecting them to come good up until the point either that they actually do, or are delisted.

I still have a sense of wasted opportunity in relation to the delisting of TS 40, McGough and Murray and the "retirement" of Brett Voss and am still not convinced that we have really done any better with the likes of Birss, Dempster, Schneider, C Jones or C Gardiner.

Anyway, I guess it takes all types of posters to make an online forum...

[NeXus James]

I think Raph may have had 2 goals kicked by his direct opponent but I think it was only one, but seems to have been blamed for 16 goals.

Considering he was instrumetal in the first three of the Saints goals and we won by less than one, it could be said that he in fact won us the game.

I wont say that of course because it looks as ridiculous and factuous as some on the anti Raoh posts I have read here.

To say one day he will lose us a game is just inward looking.

Just as silly as saying "one day he will win us a game".

Why dont you people get yourself a new whipping boy.

I think some people need to take a breath and look at some of our protected players who appear to be escaping criticism because Raph was a late inclusion.

Spot on. And also I have just watched the last qtr of the game. If you aren't happy with our teams efforts, including Raph, you are just a negative sad sack.

It was inspirational. But there is no pleasing some people.

Hey Joffaboy....you will be shocked to know that I agree with you 100%. See my post further up ^^^^^^^

[saintsRrising]

Well it looks like a few people are hinting that if you think Raph's game had problems...that you have a non-football agenda...which I assume means that one is meant to be a rascist.

Some may...but I certainly am not. Winmar was one of greatest Saints players I have ever seen. I remember seeing him at an intra club when he first came to the Saints. His skills stood out immediately....and as he was standing by himself looking awkward I went up and had a chat with our new player.


My only "agenda" is that Raph like Fiora is not delivering on the "natural" talent that both obviously have.

In many ways.....the Saints (and our opponents) were the reverse of ourselves in the Cats v Saints game.

In that match we smashed the Cats in clerances and on the ball....but the Cat's were cleaner around the ground and more accurate at goal.


Both matches highlight the importance of minimising your mistakes.


This is one reason why I look at this issue.

Raph in this regard is no lone ranger...and Blake, CJ, Rix and others are well discussed in this area.

Schneider too in this match made many particularly bad mistakes...and if he had a pattern of behavious of doing this in many games I would suspect that there would have been a Schneider string too. However this is a string to dscuss Raph.


Every player makes mistakes...it is part and parcel of the game.

However in this last game...and in most I have seen Raph in this year he makes too many mistakes which should not happen.

Take the 16 minute mark og the first quarter.(and this I first noted while watching the game at the venue)

Raph gains the ball and is tackled...

Raph handballs high and wide into spave where there is not a StKilda player within cooee...but there are Tigers on that side...who run on to it and pass upfield for a score.

Now what should have happened was that Raph if he has no one he can see to handball that he should have justa down a dinky one to get rid of it...but leave the ball in dispute....to either force a ball up...or stall for time.

Now one can argue...that Raph should have had a team mate or two in support...and that is why say the Cats have been playing well.

However it is equally true that Raph's play given the situation was not a good one.

I personally think that he needs to be in the heat of the action to better practice him at quicker and better decision making. I would do this at Casey in the midfield.

RL may for exampole feel that the more intense AFL comp is where Raph will learn to bea better player...as the pressure and intensity is greater....and if so you can understand this approach as well.

If Baker and Goose are both out...with Gilbert already unavailable then the case to keep Raph in the seniors is much more likely.


Raph does many good things yes...but he also makes more mistakes than he should be doing for someone at his stage of his career.


We have too may players at the Saints who have "potential"......we need to get more out of a number of our players than we do.

[joffaboy]

Also noticed it was Raph who was the one who kicked it to a three-on-two in the dying seconds instead of an open player and forced the turnover....thank god Jack missed

I would be interested to know who the free player was.

Can you name them? Goddard kicked out to Raph. Brown immediately manned Goddard up and left Raph free to run to the fifty.

Richmond manned up all through the midfield and there was no free St.Kilda man.

So you are basically saying that Raph Clarke, with no free man to kick to, with 10 seconds left on the clock, should break all team rules and not kick it 50 metres to the boundary?

Are you seriously blaming Raph Clarke for the three - count them three St.Kilda players in that contest who couldn't

a) take the mark
b) take the ball out
c) make the contest a stoppage.

This is an incredible statement.

Absolutely incredible.

And it goes back to what i said earlier.....their is an ugly agenda toward Raph Clarke.

Either that or you are completely devoid of logic and/or have no idea about the basics of football.

Incredible

[joffaboy]

SrR I didn't point the finger at anyone. Certainly not you. I think it is fair to critisise any player and you make decent arguments.

Howver after every single bloody game, regardless of what the kid has done, there are some who come on here with no basis to their insults, no facts, and downright lies.

See the post above. Have you ever read anything so biased and anti a player for

DOING THE RIGHT THING????

There is something sinister going on and it is more than Raph being just a whipping boy.

Draw your own conclusions. I have drawn mine.

[B W and R all over]

It is an agenda. Many just bias, some with a more serious agenda.

Correct, it is an agenda. An agenda to get ordinary players out of the team.

That's about the extent of it.

[bobmurray]

SrR I didn't point the finger at anyone. Certainly not you. I think it is fair to critisise any player and you make decent arguments.

Howver after every single bloody game, regardless of what the kid has done, there are some who come on here with no basis to their insults, no facts, and downright lies.

See the post above. Have you ever read anything so biased and anti a player for

DOING THE RIGHT THING????

There is something sinister going on and it is more than Raph being just a whipping boy.

Draw your own conclusions. I have drawn mine.

This reads more like someone trying to stir an empty pot........

[saintsRrising]

Joffa... yes I would agree that some comments are ceratainly garbage.




However the post above that you refer too...I cannot completely agree with you....or with the other poster.

What I saw at the game...was that the ball was kicked to Raph.

He marked....and at that time he could have chipped back to an unmarked BJ.

I remember thinking at the time that Raph should kick it back to BJ as the options up field were covered.

He waited.....BJ and the others in defence where then manned up.....so the only prudent option then was then to kick long along the boundary.

I would not complain obout it being to more Richmond players than Saints because Raph kicked it long along the boundary. Once the sainst defenders were covered..this was the % play.

To kick to a contest further across would have been a poorer decision.

[Eastern]

The wheel is turning for Raph on here. Not that long ago almost 90% of posters were calling for him to be de-listed immediately.

His status has risen to 50-50 as to whether he made a significant contribution v tigers.

Given how quickly this wheel is turning it will be about 3-4 weeks before he is brownlow favorite !!

[saintsRrising]

I think that part of Raph's problem is what is symptomatic of too many of his team-mates at present.


They hesitate to take the first clean option....and this then makes us slow and stilted.

The Cats by and large have the confidence to play on quickly and with purpose. Their players also have the confidence to run and support and postion...so ithere is an element of "chicken or the egg" to this.

And the Cats do not by any means always go forward. I catually watch most of the Lions v Cats game this weekend....and with the excellent way that the Lions were playing the Cats were often forced backwards and sideways.

[saintsRrising]

The wheel is turning for Raph on here. Not that long ago almost 90% of posters were calling for him to be de-listed immediately.

His status has risen to 50-50 as to whether he made a significant contribution v tigers.

Given how quickly this wheel is turning it will be about 3-4 weeks before he is brownlow favorite !!

I certainly do not what him delisted.

I just want him to deliver more...and I know that he has the ability to do so.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Well it looks like a few people are hinting that if you think Raph's game had problems...that you have a non-football agenda...which I assume means that one is meant to be a rascist.

Long bow much? Can't say I think anyone would have a different review of the same game if Raph were white... I do think you might see a different review if the exact same game played by Raph was played by Sam Gilbert. Not because he's white, but because he's popular.

Take the 16 minute mark og the first quarter.(and this I first noted while watching the game at the venue)

Raph gains the ball and is tackled...

Raph handballs high and wide into spave where there is not a StKilda player within cooee...but there are Tigers on that side...who run on to it and pass upfield for a score.

Now what should have happened was that Raph if he has no one he can see to handball that he should have justa down a dinky one to get rid of it...but leave the ball in dispute....to either force a ball up...or stall for time.

Now one can argue...that Raph should have had a team mate or two in support...and that is why say the Cats have been playing well.

However it is equally true that Raph's play given the situation was not a good one.

I think it's very harsh to criticise a player being tackled without support. Period. Some results are clearly better than others, and the best players will make the decision you outlined, but if that's an example of how Raph played badly, then we're searching for criticism... numbers are going to win that contest most times.

There was a play in the 2nd quarter where the Tigers were running down field. Raph dove for a tackle and got the guys jumper, enough to stop and turn him, but not enough to prevent a handball back to Simmonds, who started running toward 50. Raph again dives and gets a handful of jumper, enough to stop the run and goal, but not enough to force a stoppage.

He lays 2 tackles to stop the Tigers run... do we praise the 2nd effort or criticise that he didn't get a better grip on either player?

Raph does many good things yes...but he also makes more mistakes than he should be doing for someone at his stage of his career.

From a big picture point of view, I agree with you. From the course of this game, taking issue with Raph is backwards. He was running without being run down, he was hitting targets with his kicking, he was giving second efforts and tackling hard. All the things we need to see from him.

[yipper]

The wheel is turning for Raph on here. Not that long ago almost 90% of posters were calling for him to be de-listed immediately.

His status has risen to 50-50 as to whether he made a significant contribution v tigers.

Given how quickly this wheel is turning it will be about 3-4 weeks before he is brownlow favorite !!

We'll call him Raphael Goodes soon!!
IMO - He played an ok game except for a poor 2nd quarter (very poor). But gee he did some very good things through the game as well. I think he doesn't go with his instincts often enough - seems unsure of himself. That would be a confidence thing - whilst his brother takes opponents on and flies for marks and throws himself onto opponents boots to smother, Raph tries to think to much about the what ifs!! He just needs to run and jump and kick quickly - first option, don't wait. He could be anything or just fade away.

[B W and R all over]

There is something sinister going on and it is more than Raph being just a whipping boy.

Draw your own conclusions. I have drawn mine.

If you're suggesting it's a race thing, then it is disappointing you think it is as simple as that.

It is simply this - there are many times he has turned the ball over or made a terrible decision that costs us. If you didn't see this on Saturday or any other time he's played this year then you can't have been watching too closely.

The colour of his skin is irrelevant. The kid simply can't play at this level.