mathew is down the drain

[saintbrat]

I thought Drain was highly rated and sort after by other clubs?

On the same show Liam Pickering rated him as about the best going around and was surprised by Parkin's comments and defended Drain.

Note that Liam deals with Drain regularly and has a working relationship with him.

Whereas Parkin's actual knowledge of the Saints seems to be limited to constantly not rating us on Footy Shows....

I Like Liam
not as brash and out there as some.....

[meher baba]

Note that Liam deals with Drain regularly and has a working relationship with him.

Sounds like an objective source to me.

Seriously, I'm sure Drain is a nice and knowledgeable guy, etc, etc, but - if he goes - his legacy is going to be a playing list which has more holes and less depth than it did when he arrived.

We are now in a situation in which, for a big game, we can't seriously replace most of our top 15 or so players when they are injured. We are so damn lucky that Peake has worked out far better than anyone expected and that our only injured player of any significance is Raph Clarke.

All the tricky trades that Drain has made since he arrived (and, please note, this was after we picked up our two best tradees in Gardi and Schneider) have produced a net result of not much at all. Meanwhile, the recruitment of young players has been relatively minimal and, for most of those we have picked up, their development has been stifled. Even other top clubs like Geelong and Collingwood are giving their young recruits far more of a blooding than we do nowadays. Why is that? Because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth.

That's the list as we now have it. We have the 22 who played against the Cats (including some pretty mediocre players like Dempster and Eddy), Raph to come back from injury, Steven and Stanley who have shown some potential to become AFL players, Armo who looks ok but seems to have a big question mark hanging over his head and.............???

It's not much to go with.

[Thinline]

i have no idea.....one way or the other......have a shot at parkin all you want......but don't f****** shoot the messenger......



.....anyway....

lovett had form....poor choice to recruit him ...imho.....the guy was and is a dropkick.....wasn't hard to work out.....

Well if you were referring to me you're clearly paranoid about people sniping at you personally...

My post was directed very broadly. Seems quite apparent if you read it.

read the thread.......just wtf is paranoid.....wouldn't be the first time you had a dip at me though.....

I thought my post was adding to the discussion. I was providing alternative POV's I thought.

In the next post you got all tetchy and started talking about messengers being shot.

I thought it seemed a bit paranoid for someone who seems to lay claim pretty thick skin...

Besides, I never have a go at you.

In fact I rarely bother having a go at anyone anymore.

All it does is create useless chains of semi-literate infantile s***...

[Thinline]

Note that Liam deals with Drain regularly and has a working relationship with him.

Sounds like an objective source to me.

Seriously, I'm sure Drain is a nice and knowledgeable guy, etc, etc, but - if he goes - his legacy is going to be a playing list which has more holes and less depth than it did when he arrived.

We are now in a situation in which, for a big game, we can't seriously replace most of our top 15 or so players when they are injured. We are so damn lucky that Peake has worked out far better than anyone expected and that our only injured player of any significance is Raph Clarke.

All the tricky trades that Drain has made since he arrived (and, please note, this was after we picked up our two best tradees in Gardi and Schneider) have produced a net result of not much at all. Meanwhile, the recruitment of young players has been relatively minimal and, for most of those we have picked up, their development has been stifled. Even other top clubs like Geelong and Collingwood are giving their young recruits far more of a blooding than we do nowadays. Why is that? Because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth.

That's the list as we now have it. We have the 22 who played against the Cats (including some pretty mediocre players like Dempster and Eddy), Raph to come back from injury, Steven and Stanley who have shown some potential to become AFL players, Armo who looks ok but seems to have a big question mark hanging over his head and.............???

It's not much to go with.

We have a squad developed specifically to fit a certain game plan.

When you talk of 'the list', what are you actually comparing it to?

That is, what in your mind is THE ULTIMATE LIST?

It seems to me your comments apply pretty much to every club's development...

[maverick]

Note that Liam deals with Drain regularly and has a working relationship with him.

Sounds like an objective source to me.

Seriously, I'm sure Drain is a nice and knowledgeable guy, etc, etc, but - if he goes - his legacy is going to be a playing list which has more holes and less depth than it did when he arrived.

We are now in a situation in which, for a big game, we can't seriously replace most of our top 15 or so players when they are injured. We are so damn lucky that Peake has worked out far better than anyone expected and that our only injured player of any significance is Raph Clarke.

All the tricky trades that Drain has made since he arrived (and, please note, this was after we picked up our two best tradees in Gardi and Schneider) have produced a net result of not much at all. Meanwhile, the recruitment of young players has been relatively minimal and, for most of those we have picked up, their development has been stifled. Even other top clubs like Geelong and Collingwood are giving their young recruits far more of a blooding than we do nowadays. Why is that? Because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth.

That's the list as we now have it. We have the 22 who played against the Cats (including some pretty mediocre players like Dempster and Eddy), Raph to come back from injury, Steven and Stanley who have shown some potential to become AFL players, Armo who looks ok but seems to have a big question mark hanging over his head and.............???

It's not much to go with.

Nah not much at all.
Just won our way to a prelim and probably GF.
No good at all.

[Bernard Shakey]

Parkin - everyone knew of lovetts problems... But doing due diligence isn't a guarrentee... It's just due diligence.

Due diligence is the pre work you do to justify taking a risk... You then make a decision based on it....

It doesn't prevent things still f****** up.


And no one predicted he would allegedly rape someone. It would hav been a poor decision not to recruit him.. He was brilliant, exactly what we needed ... And at pick 16 and 350k... Well under priced

my 2 cents anyways...

don't agree...as i have said a hundred times before...the guy had form.......he locked his girlfriend in his car last year or the year before....whilst he proceeded to belt the crap out of her......it was well reported at the time and he was charged with assault in addition to the restraining orders taken out against him.......leopards don't change their spots...not the sort of guy you would want around the club imho......

I take it the defense won't be calling you as a character reference?

[Finna]

Note that Liam deals with Drain regularly and has a working relationship with him.

Sounds like an objective source to me.

Seriously, I'm sure Drain is a nice and knowledgeable guy, etc, etc, but - if he goes - his legacy is going to be a playing list which has more holes and less depth than it did when he arrived.

We are now in a situation in which, for a big game, we can't seriously replace most of our top 15 or so players when they are injured. We are so damn lucky that Peake has worked out far better than anyone expected and that our only injured player of any significance is Raph Clarke.

All the tricky trades that Drain has made since he arrived (and, please note, this was after we picked up our two best tradees in Gardi and Schneider) have produced a net result of not much at all. Meanwhile, the recruitment of young players has been relatively minimal and, for most of those we have picked up, their development has been stifled. Even other top clubs like Geelong and Collingwood are giving their young recruits far more of a blooding than we do nowadays. Why is that? Because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth.

That's the list as we now have it. We have the 22 who played against the Cats (including some pretty mediocre players like Dempster and Eddy), Raph to come back from injury, Steven and Stanley who have shown some potential to become AFL players, Armo who looks ok but seems to have a big question mark hanging over his head and.............???

It's not much to go with.

The results over the next few years can be the only point of judgement. If we win a flag or two it will have been awesome recruiting and trading if we do not then it will be considered a failure.....

Only time can tell this one. Right now we are right amongst it - in a preliminary final so I'm not complaining.

[stinger]

i have no idea.....one way or the other......have a shot at parkin all you want......but don't f****** shoot the messenger......



.....anyway....

lovett had form....poor choice to recruit him ...imho.....the guy was and is a dropkick.....wasn't hard to work out.....

Well if you were referring to me you're clearly paranoid about people sniping at you personally...

My post was directed very broadly. Seems quite apparent if you read it.

read the thread.......just wtf is paranoid.....wouldn't be the first time you had a dip at me though.....

I thought my post was adding to the discussion. I was providing alternative POV's I thought.

In the next post you got all tetchy and started talking about messengers being shot.

I thought it seemed a bit paranoid for someone who seems to lay claim pretty thick skin...

Besides, I never have a go at you.

In fact I rarely bother having a go at anyone anymore.

All it does is create useless chains of semi-literate infantile s***...

for the second time ..i wasn't having a go at you....the guy i was aiming at is well aware of who i meant....

[saintsRrising]

Seriously, I'm sure Drain is a nice and knowledgeable guy, etc, etc, but - if he goes - his legacy is going to be a playing list which has more holes and less depth than it did when he arrived.

.

The list has improved ...but when you are higher up the ladder improving the list is harder work...

However yes last year was not the best.

Drains brief will have been to wina flag in the current era and not in 5 years time...and what is wrong with that???

Drafting kids only now is not going to help win a flag now.

We are now in a situation in which, for a big game, we can't seriously replace most of our top 15 or so players when they are injured. .

Odd..I thought we went rather well with both Roo and Gram out????

And didn't Ben just slot in this year to replace the injured King??

And Baker while not injured (well at least not for most of the time) was not available for the last past of the year.

We are so damn lucky that Peake has worked out far better than anyone expected

Anyone????? In a post where you are bagging Drain you might find he was that anyone.
Personally IMO the club went for two pacey, but flawed, players in Peake and Lovett hoping that one would work out..and one did.


Besides if you are going to bag Peake on getting Lovett...it is a bit much to then just say Peake was luck

Why is that? Because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth.

.

Once the players are at the club..it would be Lyons call...and you can bet that the heavy use of recycled players would also be Lyon's call...even it is the task of drain to get them.



Pattison is back up player...so drop the bias. He is not blocking anyone.

Pies...kids only??....I thought they topped up with Ball and Jolly this year???? so why did the Pies not play Blair all year rather than Ball.
Why did they play Jolly instead of Woods?

The Pies had a tilt at the flag twice earlier this decade..and then rebuilt afterwards. They did not go for youth only....




PS From what I saw of new players in the seniors this year Stanley, Steven and Miles will all be pushing for senior games next year. Heyne showed some promise too. Armo too if GC have not nabbed him.

Of players in the current 22 no one is likely to retire...so that is going to mean a lot of competition for places in the 22 next season.

[vacuous space]

The list has improved ...but when you are higher up the ladder improving the list is harder work...

However yes last year was not the best.

'Not the best' is a bit generous. I'd say the 09 off-season was a near complete disaster (Brett Peake being the only positive). We got completely pantsed by Collingwood on Luke Ball. They got him for less than they offered us and they got to keep Wellingham, who has had a pretty good season. Between Ball and Lovett, we could have had Mitch Duncan and Jasper Pittard, who we were rumoured to be interested in. You can bet there would be some scouts at the club who would be annoyed that we went into the draft with one pick in the top 50 rather than the four we could have.

That said, there wasn't much wrong with our 08 off-season. We picked up Ray for minimal cost and added Dawson, Heyne, Lynch, Simpkin, Smith and Stanley in the various drafts. All of those guys were at least emergencies at some stage this season, so you've got to think the club has a lot of belief in those players.

You've also got to factor in that, with the Suns on the horizon, we've managed to keep all of our best players. If contracts are a big part of Drain's role, I'm sure that will factor into whether we keep him or not. We may just say that 2009 was woeful, learn from that and keep going full steam ahead. I doubt the decision will come down to Lovett. We seem to have done a lot better recycling bargain players than going for a prize recruit, so I hope we keep that in mind when looking at whatever is out there this year.

[saintsRrising]

'Not the best' is a bit generous. I'd say the 09 off-season was a near complete disaster (Brett Peake being the only positive).

How can you rate it as near complete disaster? Even in the best years one does not get a 100% strike rate.

Peake has become first 22 player.

Winmar we don't know about yet.

Walsh is actually exceeding expectations of those "inside" the club. IMO he is a big chance to make it but may take another season.

Johnson was disappointing.


Pattison was recruited as a back up player and in the games I saw he deliverd an honest effort. If King had not have come on, with King having gone done he may well have played more games.


With Ball I think a large part of the problem was that he wanted to go to a competitor that Lyon did not want to improve. I think the Saints were caught out by Ball getting through the PSD draft to the Pies thanks to a bit of "allowable" draft tampering and the Pies being happy to sacrifice some extra salary cap room.

Looking at our last game against the cats Peake has taken Ball's place in our 22 and we area better team for it.

If contracts are a big part of Drain's role, .

No if. It is...and player managers such as Liam or Nixon have confirmed that often enough.

And yes Lovett became a disaster. But you can see why player wise he was taken.

I may be wrong but I would suspect Lyon was the one who really pushed for him rather than Drain....with drain's role being to obtain him which was done.

Did Drain not do enough due diligence???

I think people are clutching at straws here. Everyone new he was a loose cannon. Lyon obviously decided to role the dice and lost.

Trying to sheet home that Drain should have been able to predict the guy would get into the particular trouble he did is far fetched.

[MCG-Unit]

........because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth...........

Agree with some of what you say. Just think you're somewhat harsh on Ray there, he would be easy first 22 IMO

[stinger]

Did Drain not do enough due diligence???

I think people are clutching at straws here. Everyone new he was a loose cannon. Lyon obviously decided to role the dice and lost.

Trying to sheet home that Drain should have been able to predict the guy would get into the particular trouble he did is far fetched.

don't agree.....i have closely observed guys like him for nearly 45 years.....criiminals and leopards never change their spots..... once a crim always a crim......and that's what he is like it or not....

[saintsRrising]

and leopards never change their spots..... .

Gardiner...

Lappin once he left the Saints got off the grog...


Some people can and do change...others never wise up.

But yes getting Lovett was always very risky. Migt well be the difference between winning a flag or not.

Peake working out though has offset it some what....

[saintsRrising]

........because their paths to the top 22 are not blocked by the Rays and Dawsons and Dempsters and Pattersons and so forth...........

Agree with some of what you say. Just think you're somewhat harsh on Ray there, he would be easy first 22 IMO

Plus that old man Ray is all of 24 now!!!!! So was 22 when he joined us.

So it is pretty fanciful to suggest that he has blocked the path of a young player when he was a young player when he joined us.

Zac was no old man either....and joined as a back-up to Max.....and gained a chance due to Max being injured and surprised everyone with his form last year.

Pattison was a cheap back up given we had the injury prone Gardi and King and two young rucks in Ben and Stanley.

Even if Pattison only stays the one year he will have served his purpose = back-up for Gardiner and King giving time for Ben and Stanley to mature.

Calling the named 3 players as team blockers is pretty fanciful.


PS..if we make the GF this year it will be something that Saints have achieved rarely...and two years in a row with our history is pretty good.

[vacuous space]

How can you rate it as near complete disaster?

Quibble over the language if you like. It was pretty bad. We recycled four players and got a reasonable fringe player and a surplus ruck/forward. All that cost us was a first, third and two fourth round picks. We left picks on the table to prove some kind of point (take that, Collingwood!). We picked one junior player who struggled to get onto the park and a VFLer who looked very VFL.

So, Peake for the short-term and Walsh for the long-term. If you want to change the label from 'near complete disaster' to some other negative superlative, go right ahead. It still looks pretty much like a fail grade to me.

If contracts are a big part of Drain's role, .

No if. It is...and player managers such as Liam or Nixon have confirmed that often enough.

So I should have written 'Contracts are a big part of Drain's role and I'm sure that will factor in on whether we keep him or not'. Great.

And yes Lovett became a disaster. But you can see why player wise he was taken.

I think there were enough on-field problems to question the move (and plenty did). The zero contested possessions in his final against Adelaide was a bit of a worry. Consistency was an overall problem. No doubt he had game-breaking ability, but we already had a premiership-calibre midfield. The move took us from premiership contender to premiership contender and once we lost him we were right back to premiership contender status. As I said at the time, a kid made more sense for the club.

I would have preferred Pittard. It's going to bother me for some time watching him fly up and down the field for Port Adelaide. The fact that he was there at 16 and Duncan was there at 25 absolutely killed me on draft day, especially when Ball got to Collingwood anyway. I'm guessing there would be quite a few within the club who feel the same way. I don't know if heads will roll over it, but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

[MCG-Unit]

Yep agree with most of that - they're not really blockers, and certainly not Ray

And while Dawson, Dempster and Pattison have not been outstanding, they were specific purpose recruits - well that was the intent

(I would have taken kids with nearly all draft picks last year - not good - but that's another story...)

Dempster was part of the Schneider deal for pick 26 - maybe the Saints wanted a sweetener and/or the Swans had salary cap issues

[saintsRrising]

I think there were enough on-field problems to question the move (and plenty did). .

Yes indeedy, but this thread is on Drain and not specifically on the Lovett decision unless it was Drain 100% driving it....

....do you know whether it was Lyon or Drain that made the call?

The year prior I would speculate that Lyon wanted Cousins, but the Board vetoed it.

Now I don't know who was key to driving getting Lovett. But I would lean to it being Lyon rather Drain.


But who knows....maybe Drain talked Lyon into it and it will bring Drain's demisi at seasons end despite him going ok at contracts etc.

[vacuous space]

Yes indeedy, but this thread is on Drain and not specifically on the Lovett decision unless it was Drain 100% driving it....

Even if Lyon says he wants Lovett, at some point Drain could have said Essendon want too much and that there's this Jasper McMillan-Pittard kid who goes pretty well who we think would help us more in the future. That's his job. Coaches always think short-term and so the football manager looks after the long-term. If he can't stand up to Lyon, then that's another issue altogether.

But I believe that Drain actually knows Lovett from his time with Essendon and since he's got a history of pursuing players from his former teams (Everitt, Ray), I would doubt that Lyon was sticking a gun to anyone's head on the subject.

EDIT: I did some looking and it would seem that Drain would have left Essendon just before Lovett got there.

[saintsRrising]

But I believe that Drain actually knows Lovett from his time with Essendon and since he's got a history of pursuing players from his former teams (Everitt, Ray),

Could not know him too well as their overlap was probably only about one year...

I think the Saints are a bit of United Nations when it comes to where our players have come from...

Tigers, Hawks, Freo, Essendon, Kangas all in the recent crop.

Cats, Lions, Swans still playing with us.

Certainly though Drain's relationship with Ray was said to have been beneficial in him joining the Saints.

Linking Lovett and Drain together in a similar way I think however to be unlikely.

[saintsRrising]

I would doubt that Lyon was sticking a gun to anyone's head on the subject.

Possibly...but there would be no way that coach would have his club gaina player such as Lovett unless the coach was keen on it.

As to whom first suggested getting him, and who really pushed would be interesting to know.

I know that with J Smith the the recruiters advised that they thought at that stage of the raft that the kids were quite lean and were recommending Smith over a kid...but they soight Lyon's advice before proceeding.

[saintsRrising]

PS: While this thread is on Drain...it obviously keeps going to recruiting.

I may be wrong but I would have thought there would be a lot more questions over Peake the recruiter, than Drain the Football Manager....



But yes on Dain and Ball...you would imagine that handling the "Ball Situation" would have been Drain's responsibilty and the outcome was not to our favour.

But if Drain is going to be hung let it be for his sins rather than Johnno the Sandi recruit not working out.

[vacuous space]

But if Drain is going to be hung let it be for his sins rather than Johnno the Sandi recruit not working out.

We could have had four picks in the top-50. We wouldn't have needed to draft Johnno if that was the case. Drain's the list manager and so if Johnno isn't working out, it is one of his sins, even if Peake told him to draft Johnno. Drain is Chris Pelchen or Neil Balme. It's his job to ensure the team is competitive as possible for as long as possible.

If the team is going poorly, you don't blame the assistants. Blaming Peake is effectively that. Peake looks for players to draft. If Drain brings him picks 32, 60, 64 and 77 in a weak draft there's fat chance he's going to wind up with much. If picks 16 and 25 were wasted on nothing, we're going to look at the guy who wasted them.

[saintsRrising]

I would look at Drain's entire period at the Club.

Overall it looks pretty good to me.

As stated the draft period at the end of last year was not the best. Prior was good...and since from what I have read has been good too (ie contracting virtually everyone).

[saintsRrising]

We could have had four picks in the top-50. .

Again IMO it would have been Lyon's call to go for Lovett, but if you know it was Drain fair enough.