can we kick enough goals to win the premiership?

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bigcarl
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can we kick enough goals to win the premiership?

Post: # 959168Post bigcarl »

bigcarl wrote:
GrumpyOne wrote:Kick it enough times through the big sticks and there is no problem.
that's what we don't do enough of and where we need to improve rapidly and markedly to win it.
GrumpyOne wrote:
bigcarl wrote:
GrumpyOne wrote:Kick it enough times through the big sticks and there is no problem.
that's what we don't do enough of and where we need to improve rapidly and markedly to win it.
Correct Carl.
GrumpyOne wrote:
bigcarl wrote:
GrumpyOne wrote:Kick it enough times through the big sticks and there is no problem.
that's what we don't do enough of and where we need to improve rapidly and markedly to win it.
Correct Carl.
someone agrees with me. good.

i cannot find a spot in my forward line for anyone who isn't kicking goals.

that includes koschitzke and mcqualter (both of whom may be better suited to other roles).

do you mind if i make it a separate thread?


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Post: # 959173Post samoht »

Our forward line is obviously our big weakness ... just as our backline has been our regular strength.

The constant has been Milne is beaten in big games, Kosi is rendered almost a spectator whilst Roo is once more breaking his back and adductor to do it alone.

Lynch, Stanley, Simpkin, Walsh, Heyne should all be considered - our forward line could do worse , in fact is probably doing worse without them.


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Post: # 959175Post bigcarl »

samoht wrote:Our forward line is obviously our big weakness ... just as our backline has been our regular strength.

The constant has been Milne is beaten in big games, Kosi is rendered almost a spectator whilst Roo is once more breaking his back and adductor to do it alone.

Lynch, Stanley, Simpkin, Walsh, Heyne should all be considered - our forward line could do worse , in fact is doing worse.
Anyone who can kick a goal should be considered. I have Steven in there somewhere for that reason.

Stanley could be anything, but hasn't shown much on the scoreboard. Having said that, Kosi has kicked 12 goals in 11 games ... not flattering figures for a key forward.

In his favour, he kicked 48 last season though his finals series was ordinary.


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Post: # 959176Post samoht »

bigcarl wrote:
samoht wrote:Our forward line is obviously our big weakness ... just as our backline has been our regular strength.

The constant has been Milne is beaten in big games, Kosi is rendered almost a spectator whilst Roo is once more breaking his back and adductor to do it alone.

Lynch, Stanley, Simpkin, Walsh, Heyne should all be considered - our forward line could do worse , in fact is doing worse.
Anyone who can kick a goal should be considered. I have Steven in there somewhere for that reason.

Stanley could be anything, but hasn't shown much on the scoreboard. Having said that, Kosi has kicked 12 goals in 11 games ... not flattering figures for a key forward.

In his favour, he kicked 48 last season though his finals series was ordinary.
Stanley chases and applies pressure and like kosi is also good for a goal a game - but even McEvoy may be a better bet than Kosi at full forward ?


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Post: # 959178Post bigcarl »

samoht wrote:
bigcarl wrote:
samoht wrote:Our forward line is obviously our big weakness ... just as our backline has been our regular strength.

The constant has been Milne is beaten in big games, Kosi is rendered almost a spectator whilst Roo is once more breaking his back and adductor to do it alone.

Lynch, Stanley, Simpkin, Walsh, Heyne should all be considered - our forward line could do worse , in fact is doing worse.
Anyone who can kick a goal should be considered. I have Steven in there somewhere for that reason.

Stanley could be anything, but hasn't shown much on the scoreboard. Having said that, Kosi has kicked 12 goals in 11 games ... not flattering figures for a key forward.

In his favour, he kicked 48 last season though his finals series was ordinary.
Stanley chases and applies pressure and like kosi is also good for a goal a game - but even McEvoy may be a better bet than Kosi at full forward ?
I think Ross likes Kosi there to encourage us to kick to a contest.

McEvoy could do that and conceivably hold more marks.

Stanley's lack of body development might count against him in this regard, but he's zippy and a difficult match up.

Kosi should either ruck or play for Sandringham. Personally I'd play him second ruck alongside MG. He's not a tap out king, but can provide plenty around the ground, including goals.


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Post: # 959187Post samoht »

I agree bigcarl re: stanley
Stanley is probably not suited to FF because of his build.
He needs space ... I also thought that he was unlucky as he was being bypassed a lot.

I have a feeling that if he was playing at CHF for Melbourne for instance - they would have used him as their main go to man (like Watts) - obviously that wasn't our mindset and the result is Stanley averaged 10 odd possession instead of perhaps 15-20 .


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Post: # 959192Post bigcarl »

samoht wrote:I agree bigcarl re: stanley
Stanley is probably not suited to FF because of his build.
He needs space ... I also thought that he was unlucky as he was being bypassed a lot.

I have a feeling that if he was playing at CHF for Melbourne for instance - they would have used him as their main go to man (like Watts) - obviously that wasn't our mindset and the result is Stanley averaged 10 odd possession instead of perhaps 15-20 .
let's keep this thread going, because scoreboard pressure is the area we must improve in to win it.


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Post: # 959196Post samoht »

bigcarl wrote: let's keep this thread going, because scoreboard pressure is the area we must improve in to win it.
The silence is deafening .. everyone is probably nevertheless nodding in agreement with you bigcarl :oops:


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Post: # 959206Post plugger66 »

When Stanley was dropped not one person was up in arms because his form wasnt very good and more importantly we were winning. now that we have lost one in a row we want Stanley, Heyne, Lynch or some other unknowns in that have proved nothing yet. Lets at least wait until this week before we drop or move half the side.

And people say the media overeact after one win or loss.


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Post: # 959210Post samoht »

plugger66 wrote:When Stanley was dropped not one person was up in arms because his form wasnt very good and more importantly we were winning. now that we have lost one in a row we want Stanley, Heyne, Lynch or some other unknowns in that have proved nothing yet. Lets at least wait until this week before we drop or move half the side.

And people say the media overeact after one win or loss.
Not many would be asking for wholesale changes - especially re: the group of players you just mentioned above - but I'd like to think that they would at least be considered from now on and that our bottom 6 - 10 players aren't feeling too comfortable and secure.

We need to improve our forward line - in the finals we constantly rely on Roo to get us over the line against 2 or 3 opponents, whilst our other forwards are constantly beaten by their direct and single respective opponent... so we need to at least look wider and be prepared to try something else.


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Post: # 959514Post bigcarl »

SainterK wrote:
bobmurray wrote:Goals are our weakness..

The worst forward line in the eight...

September will be interesting....will the forwards fire...will they kick straight..
'

It's a interesting discussion...

Their forwards kicked 5 goals between them, so did ours. They had 5 other non-forwards kick multiple goals, we had one in Geary.

September will arrive again, the better teams will have the better defenders who will be on our key forwards again, surely others are going to have to lift.

I truly hope that we don't undo all the good work acheived in Roo's absence, and go back to an over-reliance on our key forwards.

Of course our forwards could function better, but that will come in the next few weeks learning to gel again, but it won't help us become less predictable and more prone to attack even when they are taken out of the game.


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Post: # 959570Post SainterK »

Oh, I see what you have done there bigcarl...confused for a moment :)


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Post: # 959581Post bigcarl »

SainterK wrote:Oh, I see what you have done there bigcarl...confused for a moment :)
I pinched it from another thread. Hope you don't mind.


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Post: # 959583Post 3:16 »

plugger66 wrote:When Stanley was dropped not one person was up in arms because his form wasnt very good and more importantly we were winning. now that we have lost one in a row we want Stanley, Heyne, Lynch or some other unknowns in that have proved nothing yet. Lets at least wait until this week before we drop or move half the side.

And people say the media overeact after one win or loss.
I was plugg, Stanley a way better bet than Pattison, also mini should go, as I've said for a long time, Jack plays the role much better!!!!!


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Post: # 959593Post yipper »

3:16 wrote:
plugger66 wrote:When Stanley was dropped not one person was up in arms because his form wasnt very good and more importantly we were winning. now that we have lost one in a row we want Stanley, Heyne, Lynch or some other unknowns in that have proved nothing yet. Lets at least wait until this week before we drop or move half the side.

And people say the media overeact after one win or loss.
I was plugg, Stanley a way better bet than Pattison, also mini should go, as I've said for a long time, Jack plays the role much better!!!!!
Tough little bugger too!! Love the way Jack goes about it.


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Post: # 959596Post 3:16 »

yipper wrote:
3:16 wrote:
plugger66 wrote:When Stanley was dropped not one person was up in arms because his form wasnt very good and more importantly we were winning. now that we have lost one in a row we want Stanley, Heyne, Lynch or some other unknowns in that have proved nothing yet. Lets at least wait until this week before we drop or move half the side.

And people say the media overeact after one win or loss.
I was plugg, Stanley a way better bet than Pattison, also mini should go, as I've said for a long time, Jack plays the role much better!!!!!
Tough little bugger too!! Love the way Jack goes about it.
Reminds ya a lot of another little bloke who used to also wear no 3, no helmet though(Yet)!!!!!


"Cause Stone Cold said so"!!!!!

Shane Birss in 2008- Go the Pircha!!!!! RIP
Jarryn Geary-MIP in 2010!!!!!
Armitage=2010 SuperStar!!!!! (Luke Who)?????
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Post: # 959642Post bergholt »

bigcarl, i agree with much of what you've said here. however:
bigcarl wrote:Stanley's lack of body development might count against him in this regard, but he's zippy and a difficult match up.
i don't think he is a difficult match up, yet. i can't remember a game where he beat his opponent, and the stats back me up - in six games, he kicked three goals, had three assists and had around eight touches and three marks per game. this is not to say that he'll never be any good, but right now he's not an answer.

look, here are the goals per game stats for 2010:

riewoldt: 2.6
milne: 2.4
schneider: 1.6
steven: 1.5
goddard, kosi: 1.1
montagna: 0.9
dal santo: 0.8
gram: 0.6
gardiner, mcqualter, peake, stanley: 0.5
armitage: 0.4
s fisher, gwilt, hayes, mcevoy: 0.3
geary, jones: 0.2
gilbert, ray: 0.1

all of those except armo and stanley are in our best team and all play up to their season averages, we kick:

15.9 goals per game

for comparison, geelong get to:

19.5 goals per game

and collingwood:

17.1 goals per game

doesn't tell us much except what we already know - that we score fewer points than other good sides. that might cost us in finals. but last year we scored about 70 points a game in finals and got close to winning it.

look, we know that to win big games we need a standout goal-kicking performance from someone. gardy against geelong last year. riewoldt in two finals last year. schneider against geelong this year. other standout performances in the last couple of years have come from riewoldt and milne (lots of times), bj and schneider (a few times), kosi (infrequently), joey (once).

conversely, in our losses both this year and last, we haven't had a player kick more than three, and certainly not take the game by the scruff of the neck and have us lose despite that.

to win a big game someone has to stand up and kick goals. do we have enough players capable of that? if milne could kick a real bag in a final that would be a huge asset. otherwise we're relying on riewoldt, maybe schneider, bj to pop up. that's only really four who can do it at all.

this is where kosi hurts us. he may be good for structure, but he just doesn't kick enough bags of goals. i don't care if he never kicks the ones and twos, as long as he kicks five a few times a year.

mcqualter is similar - he plays forward but he's never going to kick a bag so the opposition don't have to worry so much about him. stanley ain't kicked bags yet, and won't until he matures a bit. steven kicks goals regularly, which is admirable, but i'm not sure he's got five in him either. gardy can kick a bag but it's pretty infrequent.

with few truly damaging goal-kickers we rely heavily on roo, milney, schneider and bj. it's just the way it is.

stop those four and you've stopped st kilda.

yes, that's a worry.


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Post: # 959652Post saint66au »

3:16 wrote:
yipper wrote:
3:16 wrote:
plugger66 wrote:When Stanley was dropped not one person was up in arms because his form wasnt very good and more importantly we were winning. now that we have lost one in a row we want Stanley, Heyne, Lynch or some other unknowns in that have proved nothing yet. Lets at least wait until this week before we drop or move half the side.

And people say the media overeact after one win or loss.
I was plugg, Stanley a way better bet than Pattison, also mini should go, as I've said for a long time, Jack plays the role much better!!!!!
Tough little bugger too!! Love the way Jack goes about it.
Reminds ya a lot of another little bloke who used to also wear no 3, no helmet though(Yet)!!!!!
Thank you!!!!!!

I said at the Geelong game that Jack runs not unlike our former No 3...


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Post: # 959658Post Thinline »

I looked at average goals of Geelong and Collingwood and thought 'gee we're a bit of the pace' then a I remembered... Pies kicked four to our ten in Rd 3, Geelong kicked six to our ten in Rd 12, and in the return Pies game, the dirty birds kicked 15 which is still less than their average against us when we were less than ordinary opposition.

Upshot is who gives a rats how many we kick if we kick more than our opposition?

I think it's an over-rated stat based on a generalisation about how the game should be played...

We have a method that has left us in win/loss terms the most successful club in the past 18 months.


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Post: # 959673Post bigcarl »

Thinline wrote:We have a method that has left us in win/loss terms the most successful club in the past 18 months.
True. So long as it stands up in the big games. Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn worry me with their scoring power.


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Post: # 959677Post Thinline »

bigcarl wrote:
Thinline wrote:We have a method that has left us in win/loss terms the most successful club in the past 18 months.
True. So long as it stands up in the big games. Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn worry me with their scoring power.
Well it does doesnt it. the results dont lie.


"The inches we need are everywhere around us. They're in every break in the game. Every minute, every second. On this team we fight for that inch. On this team we tear ourselves and everyone around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Because we know when we add up all those inches that's gonna make the f***in' difference between winning and losing! Between living and dying!'
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Post: # 959699Post SaintPav »

Kosi cannot play CHB. The game has totally changed since 2001 and even changed quite a bit since 2005. Ideally, I think Kosi should have been playing as a ruck/floating forward but RL does not see it this way.

I think that the forward structure has to change again as I'm not sure if Rooey will be able to do what he has been used to prior to his injury. Lets not underestimate the seriousness of his injury. Hence, I would play Roo as a permanet FF and play Kosi as the lead up CHF.


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Post: # 959702Post bobmurray »

Lets see how the worst forward line in the 8 goes against the Hawks...

I have a slight doubt about that forward lines ability to get us to the Grand Final..let alone win the flag......


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Post: # 959730Post SaintPav »

bobmurray wrote:Lets see how the worst forward line in the 8 goes against the Hawks...

I have a slight doubt about that forward lines ability to get us to the Grand Final..let alone win the flag......

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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Post: # 959781Post bobmurray »

SaintPav wrote:
bobmurray wrote:Lets see how the worst forward line in the 8 goes against the Hawks...

I have a slight doubt about that forward lines ability to get us to the Grand Final..let alone win the flag......

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
are you mad at the forwards....who isn't


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