Not bringing in much young talent...

[OneEyedSainter77]

Actually I'm quite confident about our future. I can forsee a similar thing to the Cats happening to su in that we have a good group of core players who can be veterans, a good group of younger guys who can be more experienced and the same as the core players we have now and a group of untried rookies and other guys who haven't played who have showed potential in the limited games I've seen them play.

I wouldn't be surprised if let's say worse case scenario, we don't win a flag the next two years, then spend a year or two in the bottom of the eight while we develop our side and put some games into our younger untried players and then come back up like a rocket when they have 30-50 games experience instead.

it's not all about tanking and getting low draft picks. Geelong built a team from virtually no top ten draft picks (they may have had a handful and yes, OK a lot of father-son too I suppose but you get my point) - it doesn't always happen like that. Not all non top ten draft picks are going to not be good players and not all top ten draft picks will be great players.

A mixed bag - however the OP is very disturbing. Seeing that many draft picks thrown away for trades and things is disheartening to say the least.

[ace]

Pretty easy to get a decent player when you have first pick.
You only have to keep your ears open and the other clubs will tell you who the best is.
Riewoldt, Goddard in their years BUT

when ever St Kilda has exercised other top 10 draft picks they got
2000 Koschitzke (2)
2001 Ball (2)
2001 X Clarke (5)
2003 R Clarke (8)
2006 Armitage (9)
2007 McEvoy (9)

Some of these are no longer at the club, the remainder can't even hold their place in the 22 for more than a few games before being dropped.
Zero stars out of six.
Bevo must have been wearing a blind fold and using a pin when he made most of these picks.

Compare to Geelong
2001 Bartel (8)
2002 Mackie (7)
2004 Tenace (7)
2006 Selwood (7)

When first round picks were traded for unproven players the club got
Brooks (6)
Watts (17)

Is it any wonder that the club has preferred trading for proven players instead.

[groupie1]

Always dangerous, and can leave a gaping hole in a list not having the best talent coming in underneath...

Our traded away or used on recycled players picks since 2000

Aaron Hamill - Pick 4 (Luke Livingston)
Fraser Gehrig - Pick 18 (Daniel Kerr)
Steven Lawrence - Pick 33 (Martin Pike)
Pick 64 - Mark Gale
Pick 75 - Robert Powell
Heath Black - Pick 17 (James Kelly)
Trent Knobel - Pick 65 (not used)
Barry Brooks - Pick 6 (Steven Salopek) Pick 31 (Joel Perry)
Luke Penny - Pick 17 (Cameron Faulkner)
Jason Gram - Pick 23 (Matthew Moody)
Brent Guerra - Pick 39 (Robert Forster Knight)
Pick 33 - Cain Ackland
Pick 49 - Mark McGough
Pick 72 - Craig Callaghan
Pick 17 - Fergus Watts
Pick 49 - Michael Rix
Michael Gardiner - Pick 43 (Tim Houlihan)
Shane Birss - Pick 45 (Brennan Stack)
Pick 57 - Fraser Gehrig
Adam Schnieder & Sean Dempster - Pick 26 (Brett Meredith)
Pick 74 - Matthew Ferguson
Steven King & Charlie Gardiner - Pick 91 (Not Used)
Farren Ray - Pick 31 (Jordan Roughead)
Pick 83 - Colm Begley
Andrew Lovett - Pick 16 (Jasper McMillan Pittard)
Brett Peake - Pick 48 (Jesse Crichton)


In Ten National Drafts we have sold...
1st Round Picks Traded - 4: Hamill, Brooks, Watts, Lovett

2nd Round Picks Traded - 8: Gehrig, Penny, Gram, Schnieder, Dempster, Ray, Ackland, Lawrence, Brooks (two picks for him)

3rd Round Picks Traded - 6: Peake, Birss, Gardiner, Rix, McGough, Guerra

4th Round Picks Traded - 4: Gehrig, Gale, Knobel

5th/6th Round Picks Traded - 6: Ferguson, Callaghan, Begley, Gardiner C, King, Powell

Mate, it's great you created this list so we can see visually who we've traded for the past few years, but, on paper, how would this side go?:

Dempster Penny Lawrence
Gram Ackland Begley
Peake Black Ray
Lovett Hamill C Gardiner
Schneider Gehrig Guerra
M Gardiner, ??????, ?????
Int: Birss, McGough, S King, ??????

Considering all the guys there in the condition AS WE DRAFTED THEM, and slotting them all into one team in the same year, not a great side, but not a bad one. Probably a mid-table team here, perhaps bottom half of the top 8.

You also wanna understand that the interstate clubs pay blokes to run around in s*** divisions and keep hidden, so they can bring them in ripe and ready, fully built. Vic clubs have to draft 17-18 year olds to get the good ones. (And we all know I'm talking about Matt Priddis).

You can criticise a club for simply choosing bad 17 year olds (Richmond) or for choosing bad recycled players. It's not a science. Top 15 kids tend to stand out, but the rest are a bit of a lottery. If you go the St Kilda route and always on the look-out for a recycled player, at least you have a better way to know what you're gonna get.

Most of our current 22 are gap-plug players, some of whom, such as Ray and Gram, having gone on to become seriously good footballers themselves, others, such as Dawson and Schneider, remaining gap-pluggers. When you find yourself with Roo, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hayes and Fisher in your side, you plug the gaps and shoot for the top.

Possibly a more interesting topic might be who we might have got if we didn't get Kozitschke?

Anyone know?

[kosifantutti23]

Having read through this thread, I'm not surprised that we have been such a basket case for the last few years.

Only four top four finishes in the last six years.

[WinnersOnly]

It really is an indictment of our recruiting policies....it is the one glaring issue the club has consistently carried throughout its history. Granted they have some sucess in recent years but have had far more failures IMO.

The SAINTS have always looked for short term fixes and for some reason the opposition players have always loooked to have more potential than our own.

I am still filithy over the drafting of LOVETT & PEAKE last year over selecting and developing younger players. Quick fixes dont work and there are endless examples of this. Look at the players we could have drafted this year alone who are playing great senior footy already and will play far more games than Peake and Lovett would have ever played. Those two players would not have won us a flag - young committed passionate developing players will !

I live in the ACT and struggle to get to any games but have previously maintained a country membership. Becauise of the clubs continued trading/drafting policies this year I will and have not renewed my membership.

Blake McGRATH called the other night on the clubs membership drive and I explained the above to him...

[plugger66]

It really is an indictment of our recruiting policies....it is the one glaring issue the club has consistently carried throughout its history. Granted they have some sucess in recent years but have had far more failures IMO.

The SAINTS have always looked for short term fixes and for some reason the opposition players have always loooked to have more potential than our own.

I am still filithy over the drafting of LOVETT & PEAKE last year over selecting and developing younger players. Quick fixes dont work and there are endless examples of this. Look at the players we could have drafted this year alone who are playing great senior footy already and will play far more games than Peake and Lovett would have ever played. Those two players would not have won us a flag - young committed passionate developing players will !

I live in the ACT and struggle to get to any games but have previously maintained a country membership. Becauise of the clubs continued trading/drafting policies this year I will and have not renewed my membership.

Blake McGRATH called the other night on the clubs membership drive and I explained the above to him...

Well I think they will change their recruiting policy to get you back as a member then.

If Lovett and Peake couldnt win a flag this year you can just about be 100% sure that a pick 14 and pick 50 something 18 year old were certainly not going to do it.

[SainterK]

It really is an indictment of our recruiting policies....it is the one glaring issue the club has consistently carried throughout its history. Granted they have some sucess in recent years but have had far more failures IMO.

The SAINTS have always looked for short term fixes and for some reason the opposition players have always loooked to have more potential than our own.

I am still filithy over the drafting of LOVETT & PEAKE last year over selecting and developing younger players. Quick fixes dont work and there are endless examples of this. Look at the players we could have drafted this year alone who are playing great senior footy already and will play far more games than Peake and Lovett would have ever played. Those two players would not have won us a flag - young committed passionate developing players will !

I live in the ACT and struggle to get to any games but have previously maintained a country membership. Becauise of the clubs continued trading/drafting policies this year I will and have not renewed my membership.

Blake McGRATH called the other night on the clubs membership drive and I explained the above to him...

That is your right of course, but I am curious how you feel when you watch guys like Lenny busting his gut out there....do you still feel so strongly about this one particular issue?

I must point out I am not being agressive, I just wondered

[Stillwaiting]

[quote="Spinner"]What about the picks we received and used on players like Dal Santo for Hall?

Exactly, often not mentioned in these discussions

[BallBanger]

It really is an indictment of our recruiting policies....it is the one glaring issue the club has consistently carried throughout its history. Granted they have some sucess in recent years but have had far more failures IMO.

The SAINTS have always looked for short term fixes and for some reason the opposition players have always loooked to have more potential than our own.

I am still filithy over the drafting of LOVETT & PEAKE last year over selecting and developing younger players. Quick fixes dont work and there are endless examples of this. Look at the players we could have drafted this year alone who are playing great senior footy already and will play far more games than Peake and Lovett would have ever played. Those two players would not have won us a flag - young committed passionate developing players will !

I live in the ACT and struggle to get to any games but have previously maintained a country membership. Becauise of the clubs continued trading/drafting policies this year I will and have not renewed my membership.

Blake McGRATH called the other night on the clubs membership drive and I explained the above to him...

Well I think they will change their recruiting policy to get you back as a member then.

If Lovett and Peake couldnt win a flag this year you can just about be 100% sure that a pick 14 and pick 50 something 18 year old were certainly not going to do it.

Lovett and Peake were desperate attempts to get pace through lack of prioritising this need from previous years...now they have compounded the problem......

I'm pretty sure the drafting of Watts/Brooks/ackland/macgough/howard etc etc etc Lovett/peake is for then/now...lower level of potential/talent for short term success rather than long term potential.
Lovett/peake at their best may have meant the difference but in a couple of years all they are is another lost chance at strengthening the list.





maybe howard does not belong in this group but to take him so early when he was unknown was silly at best.

[noob]

the picks for hall was like 10 years ago. you have to consider whats coming now. It doesn't help that we've been up there for the last 6 years because we arn't going to recieve the best talent and the players that would most likely be champions for their club. We've only picked players on potential or players on improving our team. Also we have to realised that yes we did pick players like xavier clarke and luke ball instead of judd and bartel but i'd say also that we've probably picked some players to that other clubs wish they should have got instead too.

[bobmurray]

Pretty easy to get a decent player when you have first pick.
You only have to keep your ears open and the other clubs will tell you who the best is.
Riewoldt, Goddard in their years BUT

when ever St Kilda has exercised other top 10 draft picks they got
2000 Koschitzke (2)
2001 Ball (2)
2001 X Clarke (5)
2003 R Clarke (8)
2006 Armitage (9)
2007 McEvoy (9)

Some of these are no longer at the club, the remainder can't even hold their place in the 22 for more than a few games before being dropped.
Zero stars out of six.
Bevo must have been wearing a blind fold and using a pin when he made most of these picks.

Compare to Geelong
2001 Bartel (8)
2002 Mackie (7)
2004 Tenace (7)
2006 Selwood (7)

When first round picks were traded for unproven players the club got
Brooks (6)
Watts (17)

Is it any wonder that the club has preferred trading for proven players instead.

Some questionable recruiting there from the Saints.......in hindsight

[meher baba]

the picks for hall was like 10 years ago. you have to consider whats coming now. It doesn't help that we've been up there for the last 6 years because we arn't going to recieve the best talent and the players that would most likely be champions for their club. We've only picked players on potential or players on improving our team. Also we have to realised that yes we did pick players like xavier clarke and luke ball
instead of judd and bartel but i'd say also that we've probably picked some players to that other clubs wish they should have got instead too.

Yes, of course: Dal, Joey, Sams Fisher and Gilbert: 4 top drawer players for 4 mediocre picks at an average of 20 or so

Taken as a whole, there's nothing much wrong with our recruitment over the past decade: there couldn't have been, as we have been one of the top 3-4 teams over most of the period.

Our real recruitment problem has been in the midfield. In 2004 we thought
we were light on there and took McQualter. He took a long time to come good and, when he finally did, it was up forward.

We also took McGough, who didn't make it. Nor did Howard or Birss. Nor yet Armo or Steven.

CJ and Ray are successes and Geary and Eddy OK: but all four are somewhat limited.

Over this period, Powell, Thommo and Harvey have retired and Ball and X have gone.


Yes, BJ, Joey and Gram have come on, but the net result of all of this is that, as in 2004, we are still light on in the midfield.

Our game plan compensates for this but, if our midfield is badly beaten - as happened on Monday and in the second half of the GF - we are overrun.

That's why we desperately need Armo to step up, starting tonight.

[Spinner]

It really is an indictment of our recruiting policies....it is the one glaring issue the club has consistently carried throughout its history. Granted they have some sucess in recent years but have had far more failures IMO.

The SAINTS have always looked for short term fixes and for some reason the opposition players have always loooked to have more potential than our own.

I am still filithy over the drafting of LOVETT & PEAKE last year over selecting and developing younger players. Quick fixes dont work and there are endless examples of this. Look at the players we could have drafted this year alone who are playing great senior footy already and will play far more games than Peake and Lovett would have ever played. Those two players would not have won us a flag - young committed passionate developing players will !

I live in the ACT and struggle to get to any games but have previously maintained a country membership. Becauise of the clubs continued trading/drafting policies this year I will and have not renewed my membership.

Blake McGRATH called the other night on the clubs membership drive and I explained the above to him...

I can assure you Blake would have put the phone down after hearing that spiel and thought....'what a tosser'.

Not my thoughts, but Blake's of course.

Ever heard of Stuart Dew? Players do make an impact...Especially players of the quality of Lovett. To have a one eyed view that ALL recycled players do not make a difference is ignorant.


Luckily not all of us choose to discontinue our memberships whenever we disagree with something at the club. If this was the case mine would have been thrown away decades ago.

[na exa]

If Lovett and Peake couldnt win a flag this year you can just about be 100% sure that a pick 14 and pick 50 something 18 year old were certainly not going to do it.

whilst understanding :

were desperate attempts to get pace through lack of prioritising

we've gotta remember ..its a flag this year ... and the first quote is relevant imo.





edit.. which is the same position gt found himself in.

[BigMart]

yes a Draftee will not help us win a GF - neither will a quick fix!!!!!

sustained success gives us a crack at a flag - not a one off....

good to see we put all our energy in 2010 - because footy does not go on beyond this season - hope we actually win it...because it seems as though most think it will happen...

IMO we have to see 2013 - 2018 as wee as 2010....and 27yo+ guys wont be around then...

neither will
Hayes, Fisher, Baker, Milne, Kosi, Riewoldt, Gardiner, King - some handy players....and on the way out...Dal, Goddard, Montagna

2004-5 success attributed to this core
Gehrig, Hamill, Hayes, Harvey, Powell, Voss, Black, Milne, Guerra
and supported by a heap of 19-22yo draftees....which gave us a core for
2008-10 sucess is from this
Hayes, Dal, Goddard, Riewoldt, Fisher, Gilbert, , McQualter, Milne, Kosi, Blake, Jones, Raph, Gwilt - all drafted by StK....now in 222+ zone
However they are supported by a lot of 23-26yo trades....Schnieder, Dempster, Smith, Ray, Peake, Gardiner, King - and we have a distinct lack of 19-22yo player in the senior team...imo a senior team should have minimum of 2 max of 4 to be a top side.

all are playing a lot of VFL - we are unsure if they have the talent required to be good players at AFL level...McEvoy, Armo, Lynch, Eddy, Geary, Steven, Stanley, A.Smith
and a game here and there shows very little - they need to be able to have bad games mixed with good to learn...

IMHO - Tom Lynch (fwd) or David Armitage/Jarryn Geary (mid...whilst BJ played a bit fwd) should have played in September...and earned the right by having outstanding seasons with Sandy - had with AFL bodies

Dempster should definitely not have...unless he replace Raph at HB

anyway...my take..

Maybe I shound completely contradict myself and say that I believe BC would have won us the GF!!!
and was ridiculously overlooked..

[plugger66]

BM we do have at least 2 in the team this week, Heyne and McEvoy. Also back in 2004 our youngsters included 5 top 2 picks so usually they can come into a team quickly where as there are no top 5 picks even in the last 5 years so obviously the higher picks need longer. Also we havent had many injuries and just in case you forget have lost only one game by over 12 points in the last 2 years. Hardly a reason for changing a side.

Also if you are able to say Cousins would have won the GF last year then I could just as easily say a quick fix eg Lovett would have won us a FG this year. I will not though as both are stupid comments.

[na exa]

Maybe I shound completely contradict myself and say that I believe BC would have won us the GF!!!
and was ridiculously overlooked..

whilst no one is looking , dunna wanna get into trouble , ... i'd vote for that resolution.

[dcstkfc]

Ultimately you can bag our recruiting policies all you want, but if Schneider/Milne/Mini kick straight last year, or that prick Scarlett doesn't toe-poke it to Ablett, we aren't having this conversation.

[vacuous space]

I'm not sure why there's so much attention paid to recycled players. I don't care if a player comes from juniors, one of the second tier leagues or another AFL club. As long as they can play, I'm fine with it. Most of the guys we brought in from other clubs were at least capable. Getting guys like Schneider, Gram and even Guerra was better than taking Brad Howard, or a lot of the guys we could have taken with that pick (Bachar Houli anyone?). The average AFL draft pick lasts 4 years and has minimal impact. With an older recycled player, you at least have some idea what you're getting.

In recent times our club hasn't made too many short sighted moves anyway. Most of the guys we've brought in might have been older, but still looked like long-term players. We traded the pick we got for Wakelin for Hamill. Hamill was young enough that he looked to be a long-term player. The pick we traded for Black was one of the ones we got for Hall. We gave up slightly less for Brooks than we got for Everitt. None of those trades made us any older. Black was a twit, Brooks brain never matched his physical abilities, but the moves clearly weren't made for a short-term tilt at the flag. There was reason to believe that those players were better than anything that would be there at that pick.

Obviously the trade for Lovett was a disaster. While I would have loved to have brought in JMP (and Mitch Duncan for Luke Ball) I really don't think those moves will be particularly costly either now or down the road. Those kids wouldn't be in our 22 right now. By the time they've matured, we'll have had several chances to take more players. I'm pretty happy with the young talent we've got at the club. Hopefully future recruiting periods are more 2008 and less 2009. I hope they don't arbitrarily decide they have too many recycled players. Talent is talent, and Jesse Smith is worth a shot at 60 no matter where he came from. Adam Pattison and Brett Peake on the other hand...

[WinnersOnly]

It really is an indictment of our recruiting policies....it is the one glaring issue the club has consistently carried throughout its history. Granted they have some sucess in recent years but have had far more failures IMO.

The SAINTS have always looked for short term fixes and for some reason the opposition players have always loooked to have more potential than our own.

I am still filithy over the drafting of LOVETT & PEAKE last year over selecting and developing younger players. Quick fixes dont work and there are endless examples of this. Look at the players we could have drafted this year alone who are playing great senior footy already and will play far more games than Peake and Lovett would have ever played. Those two players would not have won us a flag - young committed passionate developing players will !

I live in the ACT and struggle to get to any games but have previously maintained a country membership. Becauise of the clubs continued trading/drafting policies this year I will and have not renewed my membership.

Blake McGRATH called the other night on the clubs membership drive and I explained the above to him...

I can assure you Blake would have put the phone down after hearing that spiel and thought....'what a tosser'.

Not my thoughts, but Blake's of course.

Ever heard of Stuart Dew? Players do make an impact...Especially players of the quality of Lovett. To have a one eyed view that ALL recycled players do not make a difference is ignorant.


Luckily not all of us choose to discontinue our memberships whenever we disagree with something at the club. If this was the case mine would have been thrown away decades ago.

SPINNER the only tosser here is yourself - this is why people chose to not post on this site because if anyone wants to voice their opinion they get ridiculed. My membership was always basically a donation as I didn't make use of the three games it bought.

So SPINNER if you want to continue this I will make an effort to come down and meet you ! Send me a PM...

[kosifantutti23]

And we would be the only club who has failed to recruit a small indigenous forward.

That's our problem. We should do more drafting by ethnicity.

[degruch]

And we would be the only club who has failed to recruit a small indigenous forward.

That's our problem. We should do more drafting by ethnicity.

And height.

Not to mention we successfully drafted Choo Choo only last year, but he left.

[saint66au]

Our most recent first round pick is yet to make his debut and has had injury problems..

The four prior to that are all on the fringe or outside our best 22..

The three players we traded first rounders for are all no longer at the Club or never played for the Club

Thats eight years of first round picks and none of them are automatic selections in our current side

Not great