Umpires

[SaintTom]

Can someone please explain the holding the ball decisions against Goddard and King? They both had a free kick/mark, and Betts just stood two meters behind them until play on was called, then tackled them. Did I imagine this, or was there a rule change this year to prevent players standing within 5 meters behind a player with a free? So those should have been automatic 50s.

Amongst other poor umpiring decisions, the worst was the holding the ball on Murphy that wasn't paid. We got a goal out of it regardless, but he took a few steps, shrugged a tackle, took a few more, got pinned and dropped the ball (I can't see any angle that could give you a different opinion) and play on? I laughed at that, that was staggering.

[ace]

Can someone please explain the holding the ball decisions against Goddard and King? They both had a free kick/mark, and Betts just stood two meters behind them until play on was called, then tackled them. Did I imagine this, or was there a rule change this year to prevent players standing within 5 meters behind a player with a free? So those should have been automatic 50s.

Amongst other poor umpiring decisions, the worst was the holding the ball on Murphy that wasn't paid. We got a goal out of it regardless, but he took a few steps, shrugged a tackle, took a few more, got pinned and dropped the ball (I can't see any angle that could give you a different opinion) and play on? I laughed at that, that was staggering.

Rumour is that a number of umpire's friends had wagered money at massive odds, for Carlton beating St Kilda by over 10 goals.
Only the innocent are dumb enough to get caught.
These sort of decisions are necessary to produce the desired outcome.

[deadman walking]

umpires bet on games

[Mr Magic]

Does anybody ahve the stats of how many frees for/against Milne adn Schneider have had this season?

ALso, how many fress for/against Schneider has had since he clapped the umpire in teh NM game last season?

Just curious to see whether the stats back up the notion that they are receiveing very few frees.

[plugger66]

Does anybody ahve the stats of how many frees for/against Milne adn Schneider have had this season?

ALso, how many fress for/against Schneider has had since he clapped the umpire in teh NM game last season?

Just curious to see whether the stats back up the notion that they are receiveing very few frees.

Wouldnt you also have to see the frees before that incident to see if there is a change. Wouldnt you also have to see what other small forwards get to compare. Maybe every club says that about small forwards.

[Solar]

p66, can you name say 6 small forwards you believe get a bad go and I will go do the stats.

Say
2009 round 8 - 20 (before incident)
2009 round 21/22, finals and first 7 rounds of 2010?

Happy to do some searching and collating as I am interested but would hate for you to disagree with it because I choose the wrong small forwards

[plugger66]

p66, can you name say 6 small forwards you believe get a bad go and I will go do the stats.

Say
2009 round 8 - 20 (before incident)
2009 round 21/22, finals and first 7 rounds of 2010?

Happy to do some searching and collating as I am interested but would hate for you to disagree with it because I choose the wrong small forwards

I wouldnt have a clue because i am unsure what clubs think their small forwards get a poor deal. All I know is when i watch footy I only watch our side so you notice decisions you think are wrong. At the same game an opposition person would be watching their side so they to would notice decisions that are wrong. I reckon at the end of every game both sides supporters would be able to recall a few incidents that they think were wrong even in the same passage of play. How many times do you hear ball and man in the one incident.

[Solar]

p66, can you name say 6 small forwards you believe get a bad go and I will go do the stats.

Say
2009 round 8 - 20 (before incident)
2009 round 21/22, finals and first 7 rounds of 2010?

Happy to do some searching and collating as I am interested but would hate for you to disagree with it because I choose the wrong small forwards

I wouldnt have a clue because i am unsure what clubs think their small forwards get a poor deal. All I know is when i watch footy I only watch our side so you notice decisions you think are wrong. At the same game an opposition person would be watching their side so they to would notice decisions that are wrong. I reckon at the end of every game both sides supporters would be able to recall a few incidents that they think were wrong even in the same passage of play. How many times do you hear ball and man in the one incident.

ok how about I pick the best small forward from every top 8 side, thats fair, interesting stats so far.

[kosifantutti23]

This year only
Betts 7 for 2 against
Chapman 7 - 4
Rioli 6 - 2
Le Cras 5 - 5
Davis 10 - 12
Didak 8 - 7

Milne 3 - 12
Schneider 3 - 6

I'm amazed at these figures. I can't remember Milne or Schneider getting three free kicks each!

[AlpineStars]

So hands in the back is no longer a rule, on the TV one of the muppets seemed to think it was ok to put hands in the back if you were "balancing yourself".
In the first quarter Lenny had it about 30m out from the saints goal and a Carlton forward pushed him both hands in the back causing him to shank the kick no free kick.

Terrible performance all round by the umpires.

[meher baba]

on the TV one of the muppets seemed to think it was ok to put hands in the back if you were "balancing yourself"

That was a tongue-in-cheek comment: the commentator (Richo I think) clearly thought it was hands in the back.

[backit]

So hands in the back is no longer a rule, on the TV one of the muppets seemed to think it was ok to put hands in the back if you were "balancing yourself".
In the first quarter Lenny had it about 30m out from the saints goal and a Carlton forward pushed him both hands in the back causing him to shank the kick no free kick.

Terrible performance all round by the umpires.

I remember that incident well it was either Garlett or Yarran (both look the same to me as don't follow the CarlScum) and it was a fair shove in the back two handed not anything less and nothing was done. The umpiring on the night was worse than it has been and whilst we didn't play well enough to win on the night being a player out there for the Saints not getting a fair go must be frustrating. The club really needs to seek an audience with the Director of Umpiring to get a clarification on some of this years decisions.

[Badlands]

AlpineStars wrote:

In the first quarter Lenny had it about 30m out from the saints goal and a Carlton forward pushed him both hands in the back causing him to shank the kick no free kick.

This for me was the most inexplicable amongst a litany of inexplicable decisions. Thankfully the turnover only resulted in a behind, not a goal, I remember being soooo livid about that call at the time (maybe affected slightly by the fact it was Lenny, who was playing his guts out, and didn't deserve to have a negative stat recorded against for what was a blatant infringement).

[Solar]

SM - Stephen milne, AS - Adam Schneider, NR - Nick riewoldt, LD - Leon Davis, EB - Eddie Betts, PC - Pul Chapman, ML - Mark LeCras, CR - Rioli

Round 8 – 20 2009 (F/A)
S.M A.S. N.R. L.D E.B. P.C. M.L. C.R.

Round 8 (1/2) (1/1) (0/0) (0/2) (1/0) DNP (1/0) (1/1)
Round 9 (0/2) (3/0) (0/0) (0/0) (0/0) (2/2) DNP (1/2)
Round 10 DNP (0/0) (1/0) (0/1) (0/0) DNP (1/1) (1/1)
Round 11 (0/2) (0/1) (1/1) (0/2) (0/0) (1/1) (1/2) (1/0)
Round 12 (0/1) (0/2) (3/0) (1/1) (1/1) (0/1) (0/1) DNP
Round 13 (0/1) (0/2) (3/0) DNP (1/2) (2/1) (2/1) DNP
Round 14 (1/2) (1/1) (0/1) (0/2) (2/1) (4/1) (0/0) DNP
Round 15 (0/2) DNP (1/0) (1/0) (1/1) (3/0) (1/2) (0/1)
Round 16 (0/0) (2/1) (0/0) (0/0) (1/0) (2/0) (0/1) (0/1)
Round 17 (0/0) (1/1) (3/0) (1/0) (1/1) (1/0) (1/1) (2/0)
Round 18 (2/2) (2/1) (0/1) (2/1) (2/2) (0/1) (0/0) (2/1)
Round 19 (2/0) (1/2) DNP (0/1) (2/0) DNP (0/0) (0/1)
Round 20 (2/4) (1/1) (1/1) (0/2) (1/1) DNP (2/1) (5/0)
Total (8/18) (12/13) (13/4) (5/12) (13/9) (15/7) (9/10) (13/8)
Average (.6/1.5) (1/1.1) (1/.3) (.4/1) (1.1/.7)(1.6/.8) (.7/.8) (1.3/.8)

Round 21(2009 ) - round 7 2010
S.M. A.S. N.R. L.D. E.B. P.C. M.L. C.R.

Round 21 (0/0) (0/2) (1/1) (1/0) (0/0) (2/1) (1/2) (0/3)
Round 22 (0/1) (0/2) (3/1) (1/1) DNP DNP (2/0) (2/2)
wk 1 finals (2/1) (½) (3/1) (1/1) (1/1) (0/1) DNP DNP
wk 2 finals DNP DNP DNP (0/1) DNP DNP DNP DNP
wk 3 finals (0/2) (1/0) (2/2) (1/0) DNP (0/0) DNP DNP
wk 4 finals (0/3) (2/0) (0/1) DNP DNP (2/0) DNP DNP
Round 1 (1/2) (0/1) (2/1) (2/1) (0/0) (0/1) (0/1) DNP
Round 2 (1/2 (0/1) (1/2) (3/3) (2/1) (0/2) DNP (3/0)
Round 3 (0/3) (1/2) (4/1) (2/1) (0/1) (1/0) (1/1) (1/0)
Round 4 (0/0) (0/1) DNP (0/2) (1/0) (1/1) (0/0) (0/0)
Round 5 (1/3) (1/0) DNP (1/1) (2/0) (0/0) (1/1) (0/0)
Round 6 (0/1) (0/0) DNP (0/3) (1/0) (3/0) (2/0) (1/1)
Round 7 (0/1) (1/1) DNP (2/1) (1/0) (2/0) (1/2) (1/1)
Total (5/16) (7/12) (16/10) (14/15) (8/3) (11/6) (8/7) (8/7)
Av pg (.4/1.3) (.6/1) (2/1.2) (1.1/1.2) (.9/.3) (1/.5) (1/.9) (1/.9)

Total (13.34) (19/25) (29/14) (18/27) (21/12) (26/13)(17/17) (21/15)
av. (.5/1.4) (.8/1) (1.4/.7) (.8/1.1) (1/.5) (1.3/.5) (.9/.9) (1.2/.9)

Interesting things to note

Schneider was averaging a free kick a game in the 12 games leading up to round 20 (when he clapped the umpires). In the 12 games since he has received just over half (.6). This despite actually playing more on the ball and thus you could argue the better chance for free kicks (see Paul Chapman with 1.3).

Over average the 6 small forwards average 1 free kick a game whilst milne only averages half a free a game. So opposition smalls and schneider get twice the free kicks. Milne not only doesn't get the frees but gives away 30% more then the nearest one in davis.

Nick Riewoldt over this period has actually averaged as many free kicks for as at least 2 other small forwards (Chappy and Rioli). Even compared to the more hard done by LaCras and Schneider he only averaged less then twice their free's (1.4 frees to .8 and .9). I would argue that Roo gets his free's but they are not over the top. (included him in this to see how well he is actually looked after, pretty good but not awesome) It's also important to note that in 2010 Ablett is averaging 1.5 free kicks a game, slightly above roo's average. But that's an argument for another day

Apologies, fits better in the spreadsheet

But easy to see the averages and no-one can accuse me of fudging the results.

[Sainterman]

I actually started not caring during the third quarter when a carlton player had been tackled 3 times after having prior opportunity, no free called. Within a minute schenider picks up the ball, gets tacled over the shoulder straight away, battles through the tackle with strength (wth 2-3 carlton players holding the ball to him) and he is pinged holding the ball.....

From that point on I didn't believe that the umpiring was fair so I don't care. Whats the point on screaming for your team when the umpires REFUSE to pay free kicks according to the rules.

Not the reason we lost but allowed carlton to get lots of momentium and fustrated alot of the saints players.

BTW how did gibbs get rid of it? If thats not a throw then you can throw any day of the week. Milne must shake his head at those free's. And now according to the umpires you can only tackle "nicely" when a player takes advantage and is about to slam the ball deep into the midfield. At worst the umpire should have bought the ball back to gibbs.

Took the wind out of our sails. No excuse but umpires CANNOT have that type of influence on a game against the actual rules.

Exactly how I felt. I was so angry at half time that I couldn't see how the club could fail to request an investigation. But in the end I just got down in the dumps and sat back and watched the whole thing unfold. Learned helplessness they call it.

It's a strange feeling, I actually screamed out for lenny to walk the team off during periods of that third quarter because the umpiring had got to te cheating stage. No saint could understand how the rules were being umpired. Why attack it when you got pinged for holding it longer then 1 second. Why tackle when they wont call holding the ball. Some of them actually looked fustrated and confused.

But it did allow me to sit back and look at the players who worked hard against the tide.

Just not sure why I bother to go anymore as I'm left confused with how the umpiring is done. They are actually in better positions this year but refuse to call the free's. Their inability to pay free's to certain players is also a concern.

I still love the footy and our great side (that's why I go), but it does make one a little disillusioned. I felt the same way as you guys, after a while I just gave up and sat back and had a chuckle at what I was watching.

Consistency would be all we could ask for and it just doesn't seem to be the case in most matches I go to.

[Solar]

Bit disapointed that I did the stats and p66 has not responded. I think it's a disgrace that schneider has been recieving 50% less free kicks since clapping the umpire. They need to be professional and call it how they see it.

Also it's a disgrace that milne gets slaughtered by the umpires consistanly!

[bozza1980]

Bit disapointed that I did the stats and p66 has not responded. I think it's a disgrace that schneider has been recieving 50% less free kicks since clapping the umpire. They need to be professional and call it how they see it.

Also it's a disgrace that milne gets slaughtered by the umpires consistanly!

It cannot be a coincidence that the umpires are killing Schneider.

As for Milne, what annoys me is the constant "You ducked your head" when he has bent over to pick up the ball and gets nailed high. Surely an umpire knows the difference between bending over and ducking.