8 full forwards will not work...

[BackFromUSA]

Lyon himself saw something of Gilbert as a forward

2009 NAB CUP / NAB CHALLENGER SERIES:

NAB Challenge Saints Defeat BulldogsFebruary 27th 2009 22:40

St Kilda will hope to add another tall forward to an already imposing attack after Sam Gilbert impressed in Friday's NAB Challenge win over the Western Bulldogs at Visy Park.

Gilbert, who established himself last season as a defender, booted two goals to be the most effective forward in a scrappy match played in hot, windy conditions, which the Saints won 8.13 (61) to 5.5 (35).

Justin Koschitzke also made good position and took several strong marks in his first game of the 2009 campaign, but let himself down with poor kicking.

The most pleasing factor for the two clubs, both preliminary finalists last season, last year, was the return of several key players.

Lenny Hayes and Steven Baker played their first games of the pre-season for St Kilda, while the Bulldogs welcomed back Jason Akermanis, Ryan Griffen, Mitch Hahn and Robert Murphy.

St Kilda coach Ross Lyon was encouraged by the agility of Gilbert, who he said could complement Koschitzke and captain Nick Riewoldt as marking targets in attack.

"If we can team defend pretty well it takes the pressure off another legitimate tall and we'll be able to (play him forward)," Lyon said.

AAP

[bigcarl]

i must have missed it ... WHEN have they played Gilbert up forward at all (except for the 2009 practice matches where he was VERY effective) ???

last season they did it...he was back in defence before half time....it was the second or third time they'd tried it....it doesn't work...he won't be the answer down forward..

they tried it for about 15 minutes and he was playing third forward, so every forward entry went to riewoldt or kosi.

personally i think it is well worth a shot.

i agree with an observation in another thread that he plays a bit like a young Gtrain.

An awkward customer, effective in the air as well as on the ground.

[bobmurray]

Lyon himself saw something of Gilbert as a forward

2009 NAB CUP / NAB CHALLENGER SERIES:

NAB Challenge Saints Defeat BulldogsFebruary 27th 2009 22:40

St Kilda will hope to add another tall forward to an already imposing attack after Sam Gilbert impressed in Friday's NAB Challenge win over the Western Bulldogs at Visy Park.

I am fairly confident that hope has now gone but we shall see....

Ross also thinks Kosi is still the answer up forward...anyway, the way the merry go round is working, all the defenders will most likely get another go up forward,gives Gilbert another chance to show he's a defender....[/b]

[bigcarl]

we know goddard can play forward. he kicked five against fremantle. he's a natural.

.

With that logic stick with Kosi. He has kicked some bags of goals too.

how many does he have this season? BJ kicked more in half a game.

i just think kosi offers more around the ground as a ruckman than either king or gardiner and looks like a fish out of water at ff.

i feel for the bloke, because he can play and must feel enormous pressure being expected to kick bags of goals and carry the attack.

as you have said in other posts, he's an okay No.2, but definitely not a No.1 forward.

[Statsman]

i must have missed it ... WHEN have they played Gilbert up forward at all (except for the 2009 practice matches where he was VERY effective) ???

Interestingly, Gilbo was the only tall defender that wasn't tried up forward this week. I guess Ross doesn't rate him as a forward any more.

[na exa]

why cant we plant gardy at ff ?

kosi and mac rucking , resting in a pocket

if we are copping a sausage in the ruck , gardy's available
or even takes the last 5 minutes of each quarter as a matter of course

[bigcarl]

the reasons i believe we can afford BJ at Full Forward are as follows:

--> Gwilt has stepped as a half back able to kick beautifully to position

--> Ray has stepped up from bein g a running half back to a wingman

--> Armitage and steven are stepping up into our midfield rotation

None of the above are a "Goddard" but they are / would do a better job replacing Goddard than what we are currently serving up as a forward structure.

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

i like that

[plugger66]

the reasons i believe we can afford BJ at Full Forward are as follows:

--> Gwilt has stepped as a half back able to kick beautifully to position

--> Ray has stepped up from bein g a running half back to a wingman

--> Armitage and steven are stepping up into our midfield rotation

None of the above are a "Goddard" but they are / would do a better job replacing Goddard than what we are currently serving up as a forward structure.

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

i like that

When are people going to realise that the forwards arent the problem. Yes it would be great to have Rooy but we havent and there is no one even half like him to replace him. We kicked 14 against Freo in what people say was one of the best games for the year. I think Fisher played up forward but was no good. We won because our backline and mids gave the ball to our forwards more often. We are no playing slow footy through the backline and mids and that is giving the forwards less opportunity. If we had Plugger and Dunstall up there we would still have got beaten last week.

We need to keep our structure which means Gilbert continues to play back and BJ continues to play mainly on the ball with rests up forward.

[bigcarl]

We are now playing slow footy through the backline and mids and that is giving the forwards less opportunity.

sorry plugger, i'll have to disagree with you.

we are playing slow footy through the backline and mids because they have no one to go to in the forward line.

it is no coincidence that our little slump coincides almost exactly with the loss of our main forward.

so the forward line is an issue.

we need to find a stable structure there while the captain is out.

gilbert or blake to chf. bj to ff. kosi to ruck. the mids will have to lift to cover bj. kosi will offset him going forward a bit

[SainterK]

the reasons i believe we can afford BJ at Full Forward are as follows:

--> Gwilt has stepped as a half back able to kick beautifully to position

--> Ray has stepped up from bein g a running half back to a wingman

--> Armitage and steven are stepping up into our midfield rotation

None of the above are a "Goddard" but they are / would do a better job replacing Goddard than what we are currently serving up as a forward structure.

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

i like that

When are people going to realise that the forwards arent the problem. Yes it would be great to have Rooy but we havent and there is no one even half like him to replace him. We kicked 14 against Freo in what people say was one of the best games for the year. I think Fisher played up forward but was no good. We won because our backline and mids gave the ball to our forwards more often. We are no playing slow footy through the backline and mids and that is giving the forwards less opportunity. If we had Plugger and Dunstall up there we would still have got beaten last week.

We need to keep our structure which means Gilbert continues to play back and BJ continues to play mainly on the ball with rests up forward.

I agree with you, and with Gram back now we actually have all the players required back in the side to settle back to the structure that worked against Freo.

Also against Freo they kicked it to Milne more often, or at least to space to allow him to have a chance. Carlton did this very well, they give their small forwards every opportunity.

The ball is going in their less, and I just can't agree it's because the mids have nobody to kick it too.

[busso mick]

A good post Statsman! Filling the gap left by Roo has caused us a lot of concern in the past 3 weeks. The main problem as I see it is Roo is worth 2 players to us due to his ability to roam far and wide at pace to provide a lead-up link and also to take a contested mark within range. What we really need is a replacement for that lead-up option as it apparent that Kosi is not a lead up forward. The possesion before getting to a scoring location is what is bringing us undone at the moment. Stanley does have the pace but not the experience, Lynch if fit would be a good option, but I don't think that swapping and changing our stable mid-sized backline is not the answer. Filling this link would make Kosis job as a forward to stay within the 50 a lot easier.

[gringo]

I agree with Borderbarry in that Zac would do well to be left in the forward line for a few weeks and be developed there not just stuck in for bursts.

Gardiner is inconsistent in the forward line and can ruck, I would prefer Mc evoy forward and Gardy rucking.

As for kosi he is better as a moving target than a stagnant forward they should play him in a Richo type forward pocket role using his strengths rather than high lighting the bad bits of his game.

[bobmurray]

the reasons i believe we can afford BJ at Full Forward are as follows:

--> Gwilt has stepped as a half back able to kick beautifully to position

--> Ray has stepped up from bein g a running half back to a wingman

--> Armitage and steven are stepping up into our midfield rotation

None of the above are a "Goddard" but they are / would do a better job replacing Goddard than what we are currently serving up as a forward structure.

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

i like that

When are people going to realise that the forwards arent the problem. Yes it would be great to have Rooy but we havent and there is no one even half like him to replace him. We kicked 14 against Freo in what people say was one of the best games for the year. I think Fisher played up forward but was no good. We won because our backline and mids gave the ball to our forwards more often. We are no playing slow footy through the backline and mids and that is giving the forwards less opportunity. If we had Plugger and Dunstall up there we would still have got beaten last week.

We need to keep our structure which means Gilbert continues to play back and BJ continues to play mainly on the ball with rests up forward.

It's when the ball goes into the forward line and the SAINTS players appear to be totally inept in a contest and when the ball is in dispute they invariably let it be run out by the opposition and when there is a contest we don't have any crumbers or if we do they fiddle,fumble and turn it over.Terrible half forward line,i bet Richmond wouldn't replace theirs with ours.....

The forward set up is weak.....the slow plodding midfield is another story but the forwards are now getting torched.it was Reiwoldt who carried the forward line in the finals to get the team to the GF and now we dont have him we are exposed...too many good,ordinary players having to play roles they are not suited to......

[plugger66]

the reasons i believe we can afford BJ at Full Forward are as follows:

--> Gwilt has stepped as a half back able to kick beautifully to position

--> Ray has stepped up from bein g a running half back to a wingman

--> Armitage and steven are stepping up into our midfield rotation

None of the above are a "Goddard" but they are / would do a better job replacing Goddard than what we are currently serving up as a forward structure.

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

i like that

When are people going to realise that the forwards arent the problem. Yes it would be great to have Rooy but we havent and there is no one even half like him to replace him. We kicked 14 against Freo in what people say was one of the best games for the year. I think Fisher played up forward but was no good. We won because our backline and mids gave the ball to our forwards more often. We are no playing slow footy through the backline and mids and that is giving the forwards less opportunity. If we had Plugger and Dunstall up there we would still have got beaten last week.

We need to keep our structure which means Gilbert continues to play back and BJ continues to play mainly on the ball with rests up forward.

It's when the ball goes into the forward line and the SAINTS players appear to be totally inept in a contest and when the ball is in dispute they invariably let it be run out by the opposition and when there is a contest we don't have any crumbers or if we do they fiddle,fumble and turn it over.Terrible half forward line,i bet Richmond wouldn't replace theirs with ours.....

The forward set up is weak.....the slow plodding midfield is another story but the forwards are now getting torched.it was Reiwoldt who carried the forward line in the finals to get the team to the GF and now we dont have him we are exposed...too many good,ordinary players having to play roles they are not suited to......

Fair enough but how did we beat Freo in a fairly high scoring game? More to it than just the forward line. More to do with good entry into the forward line from the mids and backs.

[bigcarl]

More to it than just the forward line.

no one is denying that, but the forward line is a significant issue.

[plugger66]

More to it than just the forward line.

no one is denying that, but the forward line is a significant issue.

Not as big as our midfield and backline. That will win us the game this week, not makeshift forwards or guys in the seconds who havent been doing much.

[Finna]

why cant we plant gardy at ff ?

kosi and mac rucking , resting in a pocket

if we are copping a sausage in the ruck , gardy's available
or even takes the last 5 minutes of each quarter as a matter of course

Agree. Gardy is a good mark knows how to kick a goal. Can also rotate with Kosi and Mac and doesnt take anything out of our midfield or defence.

Well worth a try I believe.

[bigcarl]

More to it than just the forward line.

no one is denying that, but the forward line is a significant issue.

Not as big as our midfield and backline. That will win us the game this week, not makeshift forwards or guys in the seconds who havent been doing much.

The efficiency stats I saw in another thread are fairly damning. I'd move kosi to ruck for sure, but I expect Ross will stick with him at ff. Whatever the case, we need someone to present at chf because we are falling down badly there. I dunno. Does chf count as the forward line?

[saintsRrising]

More to it than just the forward line.

no one is denying that, but the forward line is a significant issue.

Not as big as our midfield and backline. That will win us the game this week, not makeshift forwards or guys in the seconds who havent been doing much.

Agree...our midfield needs to be competive and doing it's part of the zone supported by a backline with plenty of run and drive to generate quality ball into our forward line.

A big prblem for us against the Blues was that Sam Fisher effectively played no part of the game. The week prior he helped lock Hall out of the game and kicked the winning goal.

[bobmurray]

More to it than just the forward line.

no one is denying that, but the forward line is a significant issue.

Not as big as our midfield and backline. That will win us the game this week, not makeshift forwards or guys in the seconds who havent been doing much.

Agree...our midfield needs to be competive and doing it's part of the zone supported by a backline with plenty of run and drive to generate quality ball into our forward line.

A big prblem for us against the Blues was that Sam Fisher effectively played no part of the game. The week prior he helped lock Hall out of the game and kicked the winning goal.

it's like the backs and the mids are required to compensate for the forwards...maybe thats the game plan....

[nobhead]

Identify the player best suited to play that key forward role, give him time to assume that role and rebuild the forward structure around him.

agree

stanley should have got the job from the get go imo .only one change to the team .would have kept the structure and the players would have had continuity. which i beleive is very important as clearly stated by statsman .last year was a succesful season mainly due to the fact that these guys played alongside each other for most of the season .

[saintsRrising]

it's like the backs and the mids are required to compensate for the forwards...maybe thats the game plan....

I bet you that Lyon would have loved it if Hammill had not had to retire early due to injury. Ditto for J Allen...or if Chew Chew did not get homesick as he really looked to have that zip and goal -kicking flare...but he did....or that X kept getting injured as well...but he did.

So you have to design the gameplan around what you have and what you can trade/draft in.

[bob__71]

I agree with Plugger. I think it is our midfield. I think next week we should leave blake and zac in the backline and use the two sams and goddard in the midfield...along with Dal Joey and lenny...kosi in the ruck. Lets see how our stars go

[bigcarl]

hey plugger,

you didn't answer the question i posed to you in another thread.

it was:

if the forward line isn't the issue, how is it that our slump coincides almost exactly with the loss of our best forward, main target and leading goal kicker of 2009?

also, what did you make of these stats in the herald sun?

Since losing skipper Nick Riewoldt to a hamstring injury, the Saints are averaging only 5.8 marks a game inside the forward 50m.

That is 16th in the AFL - and just below the winless Tigers.

In the same four-match period, Geelong averages 20 inside-50 marks a game. Collingwood is tracking at 16.

You won't win many games if you're not marking it inside the arc. It's a footy basic.

With Riewoldt's input in the first three rounds, St Kilda was turning 33.8 per cent of all forward-50 entries into goals - No. 1 in the AFL.

Without Riewoldt, St Kilda has converted forward entries only 21.1 per cent of the time - No. 16 in the AFL.

A team of St Kilda's quality may be able to conjure and scrounge enough snap goals to get over the line against some opponents, but winning regularly is unsustainable if you can't take more than six marks a match within scoring range.

i thought we were on the right track against fremantle. goddard presenting as a forward for a considerable period of the match. taking riewoldt's place. quality for quality. maintaining the structure that worked so well most of last year.

but we seem to have discarded it.

KOSI INSIDE THE ARC ISN'T WORKING, so i reckon at the very least it is goddard to ff and kosi to chf.

goddard is one of those players who is very difficult to beat one out. he can get you in the air and on the ground. plus he has a natural goal sense. so give him some space and get him one out.

i'd go further and put kosi in the ruck, using gilbert or blake at chf. i expect ross to stick with him at ff, but for how long i do not know. that's his call, he's the coach.

kosi tried his guts out last week, but i agree with sRr that he isn't good enough as a forward to be the No. 1 target. however he provides more than king and gardiner around the ground as a ruckman.

the other question i would ask of you is can we afford NOT to replace someone of the calibre of riewoldt with someone who is also elite in goddard.

[bigcarl]

plugger seems to be offline and no doubt will get back to me in the morning with his answers to my questions (above). anyone else have an opinion?

sRr? anyone?

earth calling plugger. come in