8 full forwards will not work...

[Statsman]

Can you believe we rotated 8 different talls through full forward on Monday night? Here's the list:

1. Koschitzke
2. Goddard
3. Dawson
4. Clarke
5. Gwilt
6. Fisher
7. Blake
8. Gardiner

That's ridiculous! Ross Lyon is clutching at straws, madly shuffling the deck chairs hoping to find something, anything, that works. That's never going to be a successful strategy as it's not a repeatable process. Worse still, this approach is having a knock-on effect all over the ground.

It must be hard for a defender to be swung forward for 5-10 minutes then get yanked again because they haven't instantly created a goal. It's going to take time for a backman to learn, or re-learn in some cases, how to play as a forward. Success and goals are not going to come in minutes. Switching them out again moments later is not going to instill confidence in them next time they're swung forward.

It also can't be easy for the midfielders to look up and see a different player presenting (or not presenting in some cases) every time we go forward. They can't be sure how that new forward is going to lead or how they prefer the ball delivered. This could lead to uncertainty in our midfield and may be one factor explaining why our delivery inside 50 has been so poor of late.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, its messages with our backline structure as we constantly rob Peter to pay Paul. The success of our backline of the last 18 months has been built on their ability to play as a defensive unit. They work together to support each other and collectively shut down the opposition. That defensive unit is being weakened was we continually change the personnel down back.

The solution, as I see it, is to stop shuffling so many different players, most of whom are career backman, through the key forward position. We would far better of picking one player to become our makeshift forward, in Roo's absence, and letting that guy develop into the role. I don't care whether it's Goddard, one of the backmen, one of the ruckman or Stanley coming up from the VFL. Just pick somebody and let him develop as a forward. Give him time to work alongside Kosi and figure our how best to compliment each other. Allow the midfield to get to know how he operates and how to best deliver the football to him. Let him take a few marks and have some shots at goal to gain some confidence and establish a goal kicking routine.

It's clear for all to see that our forward structure has fallen apart. Identify the player best suited to play that key forward role, give him time to assume that role and rebuild the forward structure around him.

[dcstkfc]

Yep.

I think it hurts the defence as well.

[Zippy]

The important thing is the opposition will be as confused as we are

[bigcarl]

Identify the player best suited to play that key forward role, give him time to assume that role and rebuild the forward structure around him.

agree

[rexy]

I think in part you are right and in part you are missing the whole point.

Was he rotating forwards or was he rotating defenders in a hope that some combination of match ups and positions would give us some kind of drive and clean use out of defense?

Looked to me like the latter, find it hard to beleive that any asessment could be made of anyone who went forward, they rarely if ever had the ball delivered to them in the right spot.

[degruch]

Identify the player best suited to play that key forward role, give him time to assume that role and rebuild the forward structure around him.

agree

Isn't it a bit hard to identify them if you've never tried them under fire in a forward role before? I think if we're going to experiment, this week and next week are the games to do it.

[bigcarl]

Identify the player best suited to play that key forward role, give him time to assume that role and rebuild the forward structure around him.

agree

Isn't it a bit hard to identify them if you've never tried them under fire in a forward role before? I think if we're going to experiment, this week and next week are the games to do it.

we know goddard can play forward. he kicked five against fremantle. he's a natural.

aside from that, i'd like to see how gilbert goes.

but stick with them for the whole game. i'm with statsman on this five minute rotation thing. it gives a feeling of instability and confusion.

[degruch]

Identify the player best suited to play that key forward role, give him time to assume that role and rebuild the forward structure around him.

agree

Isn't it a bit hard to identify them if you've never tried them under fire in a forward role before? I think if we're going to experiment, this week and next week are the games to do it.

we know goddard can play forward. he kicked five against fremantle. he's a natural.

aside from that, i'd like to see how gilbert goes.

I think Goddard's a good part time pinch hitter, but wouldn't have him there every week...his ommission around the ground cuts off some of our best forwardline delivery and puts pressure on our backline. Gilbert is too much of a risk IMO. But this is the very rotation the OP is protesting...ya see my point (also Rexy's)???

[Statsman]

I'd be happier to see an experiment where a player is given the role even for a couple of weeks and then we make a change if it isn't working. But to make a change every 5-10 minutes is just destabilising to the whole team. That's not experimentation, that's chaos.

[bigcarl]

I think Goddard's a good part time pinch hitter, but wouldn't have him there every week...his ommission around the ground cuts off some of our best forwardline delivery and puts pressure on our backline. Gilbert is too much of a risk IMO. But this is the very rotation the OP is protesting...ya see my point (also Rexy's)???

i think his point is at least give them a whole game in a settled position to see if they can cut it.

for example, play gilbert chf and bj ff next week and leave them there the whole game. (i think kosi is destined for the ruck)

we need some stability in the structure.

[degruch]

I'd be happier to see an experiment where a player is given the role even for a couple of weeks and then we make a change if it isn't working. But to make a change every 5-10 minutes is just destabilising to the whole team. That's not experimentation, that's chaos.

Goddard, Zac and Gwilt have all been rotated throught the forward line over the last few weeks, some success, some failures. There's some potential there, but I'd agree it puts some pressure on our backline...depends on match-ups. However, there's been nothing unusual about it.

[Statsman]

i think his point is at least give them a whole game in a settled position to see if they can cut it.

Exactly!

With the exception of Goddard, it's simply unrealistic to expect any of the other part-timers to pinch hit up forward for 5-10 minutes at a time and have an immediate impact. We might jag the odd goal here and there doing that, but it won't lead to a reliable goal scoring option we need to put a winning score on the board each week.

[realdeal]

It really shows how much Jarryd Allen's injury has hurt us! He'd be the perfect type of player and age to come into the team now and make an impact as he was coming along nicely. bugger!

It's also left a hole with no other key/marking forward ready to take over with Roo going down.



He's only been back a couple of weeks now from injury but do we think Tom Lynch will make it in the big league? If so, when and in what way?

[rexy]

I think Goddard's a good part time pinch hitter, but wouldn't have him there every week...his ommission around the ground cuts off some of our best forwardline delivery and puts pressure on our backline. Gilbert is too much of a risk IMO. But this is the very rotation the OP is protesting...ya see my point (also Rexy's)???

i think his point is at least give them a whole game in a settled position to see if they can cut it.

bj has never played an entire game at ff, for example.

I still think your missing the point Carl, Nobody doesnt think Goddard can cut it as a full time forward. If we played Goddard as a FT forward and we got decent delivery in to our forward line then he would almost definately be better than a good forward IMO. In fact he would probably be a star.

However it seems to be proven that our midfield lacks much drive, penetration and mongrel when it is without Goddard, forwards can not kick goals without delivery and without Goddard delivery seems to be greatly reduced.

What do Freo do when their midfield is getting smashed, they put in the Pav.

What do Sydney do when their mids are not getting the ball, in goes Goodes.

Geelong, Ablett and Chapman bothon the ball gives the most mongrel and drive.

Maybe the biggest mistake we have made with Goddard over the last 2 years is introducing so many HBs to release Goddard into the middle instead of trying to recruit/develop a tall penetrating mid so Goddard could become a true utility in the mould of Hird/Goodes?

[bigcarl]

I still think your missing the point Carl

i get your point. that you don't think we spare goddard to play forward full time.

my point is that we cannot afford not to have a quality replacement for our absent most important player and captain ... and bj seems the closest fit.

[bobmurray]

i think the cracks are starting to show.....maybe we can patch them up and put our Flag pursuit back on track but gee,we are struggling and Ross remains steadfast and somewhat stubborn in his support for our out of form players...

I think you can only go so far with rejects and rookies and then eventually real talent will show them up....

BTW, how is Royal going with his player development, look how successful he was at the Tigers in that role...maybe thats why Ross says players need 4 years development....the draftees aren't the pick of the crop...

Lynch can't develop if he's not playing.....Allen is a loss but we'll never know how he would have turned out....

farrrrrrrrrrk.......it's not just one bad loss...it's the games we've just scraped in for a win that highlight the issues.....

Anyway, the challenge is there for Ross and his cohorts to get some system back into the team and find some avenues to goal.....

[BackFromUSA]

the reasons i believe we can afford BJ at Full Forward are as follows:

--> Gwilt has stepped as a half back able to kick beautifully to position

--> Ray has stepped up from bein g a running half back to a wingman

--> Armitage and steven are stepping up into our midfield rotation

None of the above are a "Goddard" but they are / would do a better job replacing Goddard than what we are currently serving up as a forward structure.

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

[borderbarry]

A lot consider CHF to be the most important position on the ground. It certainly is the most important on the forward line. That is where we need Goddard. There he is not as far out of the play as at FFd.
Dawson has had a poor year to date and is a passenger in defence. Maybe we should put him at FFwd and leave him there for a few weeks. I dont believe he would be missed on the backline. Use Kosi in the Fwd Pocket and in the ruck, like he played when Gtrain was FFwd. Maybe put Raph on a HFF, to get away from having such small flankers as we have had all year. Promote Gaertner as let him have FB. He looked good in the NAB Cup. Put Blake and Baker beside him to guide him.

[bobmurray]

And whatever new forward structure we create NEEDS 4 full GAMES to work.

And our ruckmen Kosi and Gardiner have to be instructed to run forward into dangerous spots as they both can do so well

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Geary
Fisher Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Gilbert Schneider
Milne Goddard Steven

Koschitzke
Montagna
Jones

Gardiner Armitage Ray Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

Good effort but it looks like a fairly weak Half Forward line to me.....

I haven't seen Gilbert succeed the few times they've played him up forward....

Mini and Schneider haven't done much of late....

that line is a real concern....

[degruch]

My team to play Essendon:

Baker Dawson Fisher
Gilbert Blake Gwilt
Gram Hayes Dal Santo
McQualter Goddard Schneider
Milne Kosi Steven

Geary
Montagna
Jones
Gardiner
Armitage
Ray
Peake

Out: King (inj), Clarke
In: Armitage, Peake

I tend to agree on your starting 22, but with some reshuffling. I'm hardly ever right with these things though.

[BackFromUSA]

i must have missed it ... WHEN have they played Gilbert up forward at all (except for the 2009 practice matches where he was VERY effective) ???

[degruch]

i must have missed it ... WHEN have they played Gilbert up forward at all (except for the 2009 practice matches where he was VERY effective) ???

He kick a bag in one practice match, couldn't follow it up. Doesn't really show any KP forward tendancies to me.

[bobmurray]

i must have missed it ... WHEN have they played Gilbert up forward at all (except for the 2009 practice matches where he was VERY effective) ???

last season they did it...he was back in defence before half time....it was the second or third time they'd tried it....it doesn't work...he won't be the answer down forward....

the search is still on....

[SainterK]

Good thread, I was thinking along these lines myself.

For a team that is strongly built around structures and knowing your role, is it wise to change them so regularly?

[saintsRrising]

we know goddard can play forward. he kicked five against fremantle. he's a natural.

.

With that logic stick with Kosi. He has kicked some bags of goals too.