Ball having a big game against Blues

[samoht]

[
I thought he was directly opposed to Brock McLean, but ran hard forward to create opportunities and critical times in the game.

Winning clearances is tough, kicking goals in doing so is very valuable.

Winning clearances is hard work - but where was Brock McLean (another mercenary hack)at the time (physically, mentally) when Ball went forward.
Was he instructed to follow Ball ?

[Joffa Burns]

The only thing that pisses me off about Luke Ball was us not accepting pick No.30, because in hindsight that was about the right odds for Luke.

Unfortunately I think at the trade table we were all looking at the Luke of 2005 & 2006 who was a vastly different player to the Luke that plays for Collingwood.

FWIW one good games does not make a season, and Luke has struggled to make an impact for Collingwood prior to the Carlton game.

Luke would have been in St Kilda's best 22 ahead of Geary, Eddy and maybe Steven, but I doubt he would have been more than a grunt or bit part player in the big picture.

Best he looked elsewhere, but some compensation would have been nice.

[meher baba]

I only started this thread because I was interested to see Ball going a fair bit better than he had done in most of his other games for the Pies this season (I think he was pretty good against us, fair to middling against the Dogs and nothing much at all in his other 3 games).

Because he was one of our stalwarts and he has now moved on, I think it's interesting to follow his progress. I notice Maguire warrants the odd thread on here for the same reason.

I believe that we could possibly have tried a bit harder to keep him, but I also think that we haven't really missed him all that much. He might possibly have been able to do something about Rodan and Harbrow running riot from stoppages in our last two games, but then he couldn't have done some of the other things that Armo or Geary (one of whom is effectively his replacement IMO) have been able to do.

I'm pleased to see him going well. I'm still bemused by the party line on here that would have it that Ball simultaneously (a) has become a lousy player who would have been lucky to get a game with the Zebras Firsts this season, but (b) has betrayed us by choosing to play for another prestige club that was willing to use him in games in the way he wanted to be used and was prepared to pay him more (or, at least, the same) $$$$ than we would have done.

I believe that what we saw yesterday - his improved disposal (and some of his kicks in general play were significantly more than 30m and hit their targets on the chest) and hitherto hidden qualites as a goalsneak - are symptoms of his becoming more confident because he feels more supported by the club and coaching staff. Either that, or he's somehow become fitter and more flexible at the Pies (which is possible, I guess).

Yes, and many posters on here will continue to post "who cares?" And that's fine. I'm interested in how he goes, and I'm sure some others are. If the mods want to move this thread to the Opposition Forum, that's fine by me too.

[samoht]

i do think this thread should be moved - and can we expect to see another 3 more threads,as Ball usually plays 4 reasonably good games (for him anyway) per year.

Imagine if we were celebrating every time Dal or Montagna or Hayes or Goddard got 20 possessions and considered it a big game for them - that's all we'd be doing.
The point is 20 possesions would constitute very average maybe even disappointing games for these star players.

Ball is a GOP with some good sides to his game -and is entitled to an occasional good game...he had those with us too.

I see he got 5 clearances for the Pies, which is commendable and what he was mainly recruited for - Judd got 11 running, bouncing clearances - 6 more than Ball... and 17 more possession overall.

We definitely need to tag Judd ... who was the equivalent of 2 Balls...

[rexy]

i do think this thread should be moved - and can we expect to see another 3 more threads,as Ball usually plays 4 reasonably good games (for him anyway) per year.

Imagine if we were celebrating every time Dal or Montagna or Hayes or Goddard got 20 possessions and considered it a big game for them - that's all we'd be doing.
The point is 20 possesions would constitute very average maybe even disappointing games for these star players.

Ball is a GOP with some good sides to his game -and is entitled to an occasional good game...he had those with us too.

I see he got 5 clearances for the Pies, which is commendable and what he was mainly recruited for - Judd got 11 running, bouncing clearances - 6 more than Ball... and 17 more possession overall.

We definitely need to tag Judd ... who was the equivalent of 2 Balls...

Would be good if Gram was back to play on Judd so that Jones can tag Murphy. I like the Gram and Judd head to head match up we have used in the past, Judds defensive side is his let down IMO.

[joffaboy]

Just saw the goals Ball kicked.

All from 20 metres and two hardly made it. How Hird can say he has more penetration on his kicks is amazing.

Still his coach pampers his ego, and apparently thats all Luke ever craves.

[meher baba]

Just saw the goals Ball kicked.

All from 20 metres and two hardly made it. How Hird can say he has more penetration on his kicks is amazing.

Still his coach pampers his ego, and apparently thats all Luke ever craves.

It's not my job to defend Ball or Hird, but Ball's kicks in general play did seem to have a bit more penetration than I've observed in the last couple of years.

[kosifantutti23]

Just saw the goals Ball kicked.

All from 20 metres and two hardly made it. How Hird can say he has more penetration on his kicks is amazing.

Still his coach pampers his ego, and apparently thats all Luke ever craves.

Did they show them on "On the Couch"? I might have to see if I can find a copy.

[samoht]

It's more than just penetration.

It could be that Ball can kick nearly as long as say McQualter does - but the problem is he doesn't kick through the ball when he kicks "long"... he invariably kicks under the ball.

Whereas McQualter can deliver a quick long pass and set up a goal ... with a much lower trajectory and reduced air time, Ball skies his "long" kicks - gives them too much air time and if he wants to pass to someone say 40 metres away the passes can easily be chopped off.

That's why Ball has no goal assists if you check his stats, whereas McQualter is sure to have some, unless the people he sets up keep kicking points.

In fact I just checked and McQualter has had 0.8 goal assists per game this year which equates to 5 goal assists - whereas Ball has 0 ...and that reveals a lot about his "longer" skied passes...his kicking is well below VFL standard - anyone can chip it.

[rodgerfox]

Our style of play tends to lend itself to short dinky kicks though - particularly in the back half.

We seem to have a few 'designated long kickers' such as BJ and Gram, but alot of other guys never kick the ball more than 30-40m anyway.

It's not that they can't, of course.

[samoht]

Our style of play tends to lend itself to short dinky kicks though - particularly in the back half.

We seem to have a few 'designated long kickers' such as BJ and Gram, but alot of other guys never kick the ball more than 30-40m anyway.

It's not that they can't, of course.

True, but as you say, when the occasion and best option sometimes calls for a quick 30 - 40 metre pass , they can do it - none of our current players, including the VFL inclusions would sky the ball.

[saintsRrising]

Our style of play tends to lend itself to short dinky kicks though - particularly in the back half.

We seem to have a few 'designated long kickers' such as BJ and Gram, but alot of other guys never kick the ball more than 30-40m anyway.

It's not that they can't, of course.

Gwilt is another who will kick long and is most likely a designated kicker.

Fiora was, but did not shape up for other reasons. I know back then there was an interview with Lyon and part of what was revealed was that Lyon was looking for a couple of players in the backline that had good long kicks that could deliver the ball well. BJ is of course a success, but Fiora despite having the skill did not have the heart or workrate.

Gwilt stepping up this year has been a boon.

However losing Gram from the midfield has stimmied us. Apart from his own kicking Gram with his pace was target that they would kick into space for for him to run onto the ball.

Peake was doing this with mixed success.


In the forward line this year there compared to last year has been more use of long kicks, combined with an emptied forward line ala "Pagan's Paddock". Either for players to run onto, or like Kosi did in the last quarter to create crumbing opportunities close to goal.

Also at present the main target for long kicks in Roo is sitting in the grandstand.

As you have posted in other threads RF, in this Roo-less period having to enter our forward line without Roo will ultimately be good for the team.

Howeve things look "awkward" at present. With Gram back (who knows when though) things will improve.

[desertsaint]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

[samoht]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

Harvey ? ... we all miss him !

Ball could never emulate Harvey.

The thing about Harvey is he also ran and carried 20 metres on average before he delivered that centimetre perfect short pass, so it still equated to 40 metres plus and the pass could not be chopped off.

He didn't just chip the ball ...he ran and carried it first.

You might find this interesting - this is Robert Harvey's final year of football - he was ranked equal 13th in the AFL for goal assists !

Ball has had zero goal assists for Collingwood in 6 games so far.

Rank Player Team Games Total
1 Cameron Mooney Geelong 24 40
2 Chance Bateman Hawthorn 21 31
3 Nick Riewoldt St Kilda 24 29
4 Steve Johnson Geelong 25 25
5 Cyril Rioli Hawthorn 25 24
5 Robert Murphy Western Bulldogs 24 24
7 Rick Ladson Hawthorn 25 23
7 Luke Power Brisbane 22 23
7 Chris Judd Carlton 21 23
7 Adam McPhee Essendon 20 23
11 Shane O'Bree Collingwood 23 22
11 James Kelly Geelong 21 22
13 Brad Johnson Western Bulldogs 25 21
13 Robert Harvey St Kilda 24 21
13 Brent Harvey

[35...LEGEND]

If Luke Ball has been reduced to a cheap goal kicking forward playing in space and 25 metres out and taking advantage of the fact that he is free and loose without an opponent - then he's losing even more of my respect.

Milne has to kick his goals with an opponent constantly breathing down his neck.

Taking over the Tarkyn Lockyer role beautifully

[sunsaint]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

while I was reading this thread (and many other ones like it) I have been biting my tongue hoping that someone else would bring up the same sentiments.
I have no inkling of samoht's vintage, but if he is an older saint he would have witnessed many games that saw Harvey and Burke combine as one of the best on-ball units in the league. NEITHER could kick the ball any great distance. Yes Harvey ran and carried then chipped, that was his stock in trade, the quick side step was magic to watch. BUT who got the ball out to him.... Burkey. Harvey got the stats, while Burke got the stitches. It was his body on the line game after game week in week out. He was the battering ram, exactly as was Ball. To belittle the game style of either player is disrespectul beyond belief.

[Mr Magic]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

while I was reading this thread (and many other ones like it) I have been biting my tongue hoping that someone else would bring up the same sentiments.
I have no inkling of samoht's vintage, but if he is an older saint he would have witnessed many games that saw Harvey and Burke combine as one of the best on-ball units in the league. NEITHER could kick the ball any great distance. Yes Harvey ran and carried then chipped, that was his stock in trade, the quick side step was magic to watch. BUT who got the ball out to him.... Burkey. Harvey got the stats, while Burke got the stitches. It was his body on the line game after game week in week out. He was the battering ram, exactly as was Ball. To belittle the game style of either player is disrespectul beyond belief.

Am I getting this right?
You're comparing Luke Ball to Nathan Burke?

One was a legend of our Club who accepted whatever role his coach gave him and despite many opportunities to leave for more pay/better opportunities chose to stay with his beloved Saints.

The other now plays for Collingwood.

[plugger66]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

while I was reading this thread (and many other ones like it) I have been biting my tongue hoping that someone else would bring up the same sentiments.
I have no inkling of samoht's vintage, but if he is an older saint he would have witnessed many games that saw Harvey and Burke combine as one of the best on-ball units in the league. NEITHER could kick the ball any great distance. Yes Harvey ran and carried then chipped, that was his stock in trade, the quick side step was magic to watch. BUT who got the ball out to him.... Burkey. Harvey got the stats, while Burke got the stitches. It was his body on the line game after game week in week out. He was the battering ram, exactly as was Ball. To belittle the game style of either player is disrespectul beyond belief.

Am I getting this right?
You're comparing Luke Ball to Nathan Burke?

One was a legend of our Club who accepted whatever role his coach gave him and despite many opportunities to leave for more pay/better opportunities chose to stay with his beloved Saints.

The other now plays for Collingwood.

Im pretty sure can compare how they play otherwise do we say Bill Mohr is better than Plugger because he stuck around.

[Mr Magic]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

while I was reading this thread (and many other ones like it) I have been biting my tongue hoping that someone else would bring up the same sentiments.
I have no inkling of samoht's vintage, but if he is an older saint he would have witnessed many games that saw Harvey and Burke combine as one of the best on-ball units in the league. NEITHER could kick the ball any great distance. Yes Harvey ran and carried then chipped, that was his stock in trade, the quick side step was magic to watch. BUT who got the ball out to him.... Burkey. Harvey got the stats, while Burke got the stitches. It was his body on the line game after game week in week out. He was the battering ram, exactly as was Ball. To belittle the game style of either player is disrespectul beyond belief.

Am I getting this right?
You're comparing Luke Ball to Nathan Burke?

One was a legend of our Club who accepted whatever role his coach gave him and despite many opportunities to leave for more pay/better opportunities chose to stay with his beloved Saints.

The other now plays for Collingwood.

Im pretty sure can compare how they play otherwise do we say Bill Mohr is better than Plugger because he stuck around.

Better at what?
Bill Mohr was certainly a better clubman becasue he stuck around.
Doens't make him a better plyer though.

I'm not sure I've seen Luke Ball play too many games in teh back pocket?
I'm not sure I've seen Luke Ball play too many games as a permanent forward pocket?

On what basis are they a direct comparison?
And on that basis, who do you compare Lenny Hayes to?
And Stephen Powell
And Andrew Thompson

all 3 of which were 'in and under mids' during Ball's tiume at St Kilda where, according to Collingwood Vice Captain Pendelbury, Ball was the only Saints player going in and getting the ball?

[samoht]

sunsaint

I'm not belittling anyone - by the same token I'm not going to suddenly elevate my estimation of them because they have left the club - for whatever reason.

They are who they are.

In fact I'll gladly set the bar low for Ball and will gladly celebrate his 20 possessions and overlook the fact that Judd had twice his possessions, plus ran and carried and had 6 more clearances than him.

[plugger66]

I remember a certain player who racked up all manner of awards for the saints who made an art of the short pass late in his career. Ball could do worse than try to emulate him.

Gee I miss the old champ...

while I was reading this thread (and many other ones like it) I have been biting my tongue hoping that someone else would bring up the same sentiments.
I have no inkling of samoht's vintage, but if he is an older saint he would have witnessed many games that saw Harvey and Burke combine as one of the best on-ball units in the league. NEITHER could kick the ball any great distance. Yes Harvey ran and carried then chipped, that was his stock in trade, the quick side step was magic to watch. BUT who got the ball out to him.... Burkey. Harvey got the stats, while Burke got the stitches. It was his body on the line game after game week in week out. He was the battering ram, exactly as was Ball. To belittle the game style of either player is disrespectul beyond belief.

Am I getting this right?
You're comparing Luke Ball to Nathan Burke?

One was a legend of our Club who accepted whatever role his coach gave him and despite many opportunities to leave for more pay/better opportunities chose to stay with his beloved Saints.

The other now plays for Collingwood.

Im pretty sure can compare how they play otherwise do we say Bill Mohr is better than Plugger because he stuck around.

Better at what?
Bill Mohr was certainly a better clubman becasue he stuck around.
Doens't make him a better plyer though.

I'm not sure I've seen Luke Ball play too many games in teh back pocket?
I'm not sure I've seen Luke Ball play too many games as a permanent forward pocket?

On what basis are they a direct comparison?
And on that basis, who do you compare Lenny Hayes to?
And Stephen Powell
And Andrew Thompson

all 3 of which were 'in and under mids' during Ball's tiume at St Kilda where, according to Collingwood Vice Captain Pendelbury, Ball was the only Saints player going in and getting the ball?

You were the one who mentioned that the other now plays for Collingwood which implies we shouldnt be comparing them because one stuck around and the other didnt. No mention of what you have now mentioned about the back pocket or forward pocket. And that last comment sounds like 1 and 1 now equals 3 because i fail to see where Pendlebury said that.

[Mr Magic]

From the other thread

Todays Herald Sun has an article saying that Scott Pendlebury says that " Bringing in luke has taken a bit of pressure off the guys who go through the midfield" and "Its probably taken a bit of pressure off him as well, KNOWING THERE ARE 10 TO 12 GUYS WILLING TO COP THE HITS AS WELL. HES NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS TO DO IT."

As for the rest of your reply, I'm not the poster making the intiial comparison.
You chose to defend that poster's comparison.
I just asked for clarification.

Obviously the 'back Luke Ball at Collingwood campaign' has now reached the halls of power at the AFL.
Were your masters concerned that Ball/Collingwood weren't getting the required good media coverage?

[plugger66]

From the other thread

Todays Herald Sun has an article saying that Scott Pendlebury says that " Bringing in luke has taken a bit of pressure off the guys who go through the midfield" and "Its probably taken a bit of pressure off him as well, KNOWING THERE ARE 10 TO 12 GUYS WILLING TO COP THE HITS AS WELL. HES NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS TO DO IT."

As for the rest of your reply, I'm not the poster making the intiial comparison.
You chose to defend that poster's comparison.
I just asked for clarification.

Obviously the 'back Luke Ball at Collingwood campaign' has now reached the halls of power at the AFL.
Were your masters concerned that Ball/Collingwood weren't getting the required good media coverage?

Cant see where the Saints are even mentioned in that comment and as for the final comment you need to get that sore neck looked at.

By the way I didnt defend the posters comparision just stating he can have a comparsion whether the guy was at Collingwood or not. You were the one who seemed to say he couldnt because he had left us.

[markp]

What is sad is the amount of attention given to Ball's game compared to Lenny's.

Seems like Luke chose the right club for all his needs.

[markp]

"Its probably taken a bit of pressure off him as well, KNOWING THERE ARE 10 TO 12 GUYS WILLING TO COP THE HITS AS WELL. HES NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS TO DO IT."

If you cant see that is a swipe at the Saints, then you cant see.