elephant in the room

[Thinline]

After watching the game again, the umpiring wasn't as bad as I thought at the ground.

Milne still tries to milk everything and Schneider should get nine from the Russian judge for every dive. Both of them will struggle to get frees unless they actually lose their heads.

Agree. And nine times out of ten they were the man in front and capable of winning the ball anyway.

What was the count, BTW?

THe count was 11 to 5 Freo's way at half time and by the end of the match it miraculously ended up 20 apeice.

There you go.

[Solar]

I was thinking about this myself.

If you didn't know better (or weren't one-eyed) you'd swear we are being unfairly treated by the umpires.

However, in reality it's highly doubtful that that is the case.


So, it may be something the coaches need to look at. Are we being a bit lippy to the umps? Are we a bit undisciplined? Are we too aggressive? Are we second to the ball?

agree, basically the tennant to my OP. For a top team who is averaging 40+ more touches then the opposition, a % of over 180 and undefeated we give away ALOT of frees in comparison to what we are getting.

Would be interesting to see how many are for ruck infringements and how many happen in our back half.

I don't want to blame the umpires (yes it's hard when your emotional at the game) but it's a problem. Freo got quiet a few from either free's from the middle or down forward. Can't afford to give away that many goals through free kicks

[bigred]

I don't think that we are being persecuted or anything....Nothing like that at all.

The issue that I have is how inconsistent they are.

We got "eveners" in the last quarter...

Some of these umps absolutely ruin the game.

[matrix]

[CeilidhSaint]

As we say in France, the umps are tres dodgy - it's the one's they don't pay that count...
BTW, Solar, Ace and Milan Faletic - I rate your opinions on most things Saints, and that's rare in 'ere!

[ace]

Just finished watching the replay in HD with all four eyes open.
It takes a long time when you rewind and review every incident.

The umpiring was worse than disgraceful.
They kept Fremantle in the game by the location where they paid free kicks to Fremantle but then deliberately ignored free kicks to St Kilda that could have led to an immediate score.

When I typed my TOP SECRET post, I had my tongue in my cheek because I had only seen the game live at the ground and formed a view that the umpires were not balanced.

Now my tongue is out of my cheek.
I fear that I might actually have been right.
I do not believe the umpires could have been that bad if they had been trying to be balanced.

St Kilda should have nothing to fear from Fremantle if they can get balanced umpiring.
But I fear Fremantle will be helped this year.

I thought the MRP was very harsh to cite Joey. I don't believe their was any intent to trip only to place a shepherd.
The outrageous system of 25% discount not to challenge MRP rulings is designed to save money at the expense of fairness.
Just as the American plea bargaining system saves money at the expense of justice both to criminals and their victims.

But the team feel great sympathy for is Richmond.
They got the tribunal to over rule the MRP and downgrade the charge on Stargate Jackson.
But in truth if every attempted tackle that went above the shoulders were cited there would not be enough players left in the competition to have more than 2 rounds.

I fear Richmond will be made the team that must be punished for the AFL to create the illusion that it is trying to safeguard players.

I seem to remember St Kilda in a similar position in the 1980s.
But then it was probably deserved for briniging the game into disrepute by avoiding bankruptcy in the way St Kilda did.
The club surviving did not suit the then VFL's plan for the competition


Meanwhile Geelong's Milburn walks for breaking Chad Cornes nose with a very late bump which was certain to and did cause a head clash.
Milburn had a duty of care to ensure there was no head clash and did not.
Baker got rubbed out for a long time for causing a head clash.

Don't hold your breath for Adrian Anderson to review and overturn the MRP decision.

[Solar]

Just finished watching the replay in HD with all four eyes open.
It takes a long time when you rewind and review every incident.

The umpiring was worse than disgraceful.
They kept Fremantle in the game by the location where they paid free kicks to Fremantle but then deliberately ignored free kicks to St Kilda that could have led to an immediate score.

When I typed my TOP SECRET post, I had my tongue in my cheek because I had only seen the game live at the ground and formed a view that the umpires were not balanced.

Now my tongue is out of my cheek.
I fear that I might actually have been right.
I do not believe the umpires could have been that bad if they had been trying to be balanced.

St Kilda should have nothing to fear from Fremantle if they can get balanced umpiring.
But I fear Fremantle will be helped this year.

I thought the MRP was very harsh to cite Joey. I don't believe their was any intent to trip only to place a shepherd.
The outrageous system of 25% discount not to challenge MRP rulings is designed to save money at the expense of fairness.
Just as the American plea bargaining system saves money at the expense of justice both to criminals and their victims.

But the team feel great sympathy for is Richmond.
They got the tribunal to over rule the MRP and downgrade the charge on Stargate Jackson.
But in truth if every attempted tackle that went above the shoulders were cited there would not be enough players left in the competition to have more than 2 rounds.

I fear Richmond will be made the team that must be punished for the AFL to create the illusion that it is trying to safeguard players.

I seem to remember St Kilda in a similar position in the 1980s.
But then it was probably deserved for briniging the game into disrepute by avoiding bankruptcy in the way St Kilda did.
The club surviving did not suit the then VFL's plan for the competition


Meanwhile Geelong's Milburn walks for breaking Chad Cornes nose with a very late bump which was certain to and did cause a head clash.
Milburn had a duty of care to ensure there was no head clash and did not.
Baker got rubbed out for a long time for causing a head clash.

Don't hold your breath for Adrian Anderson to review and overturn the MRP decision.

hey ace would love to see you post some of the examples from the game as I felt that it was bizarre that the team first in was not being rewarded.

[Leo.J]

IMO Milne and Schnieder are know amongst umpires as stagers.

And that is why they struggle to get a free unless it is blatantly obvious.

When ever the AFL bring in a new rule or interpretation it is done for a purpose.

The reason they introduced the staging rule was to make it easier for umpires to umpire. Because if it is assumed that there is going to be no staging an umpire can make a decision on face value, not having to consider whether the player has dived, or faked.

Milne was used as one of the pin up boys for staging on the DVD the AFL gave to the clubs regarding the new interpretations and rules.

Milne a Schnieder need to give away the theatrics, and the frees will come, it will take a while, but at the moment they are earmarked by the umpiring fraternity as stagers IMO.

[rexy]

Think you are probably right about Milne and Schneider, think they are probably both very chatty on the ground which doesnt help either.

Umpires need to get over that though and pay what they see, I thought milne was hard done by Sunday and was more frustrated when Pav got that one in the forward line where he just fell over.

[Solar]

IMO Milne and Schnieder are know amongst umpires as stagers.

And that is why they struggle to get a free unless it is blatantly obvious.

When ever the AFL bring in a new rule or interpretation it is done for a purpose.

The reason they introduced the staging rule was to make it easier for umpires to umpire. Because if it is assumed that there is going to be no staging an umpire can make a decision on face value, not having to consider whether the player has dived, or faked.

Milne was used as one of the pin up boys for staging on the DVD the AFL gave to the clubs regarding the new interpretations and rules.

Milne a Schnieder need to give away the theatrics, and the frees will come, it will take a while, but at the moment they are earmarked by the umpiring fraternity as stagers IMO.

see that is expected and yet I ask how long until milne gets his due again because he has stopped most of his diving. Schneider on the other hand needs to be slapped every quarter and told "no!"

But the things that irritate are the lack of holding the ball's given and then the free's given to the poor guy who is at the bottom of the pack with 2 opposition players holding it to them. Or the lack of in the backs or high tackles gven to our midfielders when they put their head over the ball.

But I have always had no trouble with the umpiring when the team putting their head over the ball was getting more free's. Or if one team was being dirty or giving away the free's. But either we were second to the ball (won contests) or dirty cause that was the first time we have come equal in the free's this season (still a difference of 18?)

[ace]

IMO Milne and Schnieder are know amongst umpires as stagers.

And that is why they struggle to get a free unless it is blatantly obvious.

When ever the AFL bring in a new rule or interpretation it is done for a purpose.

The reason they introduced the staging rule was to make it easier for umpires to umpire. Because if it is assumed that there is going to be no staging an umpire can make a decision on face value, not having to consider whether the player has dived, or faked.

Milne was used as one of the pin up boys for staging on the DVD the AFL gave to the clubs regarding the new interpretations and rules.

Milne a Schnieder need to give away the theatrics, and the frees will come, it will take a while, but at the moment they are earmarked by the umpiring fraternity as stagers IMO.

Did you mean earmarked by AFL HQ on the videos and then distributed to the umpires.

[ace]

IMO Milne and Schnieder are know amongst umpires as stagers.

And that is why they struggle to get a free unless it is blatantly obvious.

When ever the AFL bring in a new rule or interpretation it is done for a purpose.

The reason they introduced the staging rule was to make it easier for umpires to umpire. Because if it is assumed that there is going to be no staging an umpire can make a decision on face value, not having to consider whether the player has dived, or faked.

Milne was used as one of the pin up boys for staging on the DVD the AFL gave to the clubs regarding the new interpretations and rules.

Milne a Schnieder need to give away the theatrics, and the frees will come, it will take a while, but at the moment they are earmarked by the umpiring fraternity as stagers IMO.

see that is expected and yet I ask how long until milne gets his due again because he has stopped most of his diving. Schneider on the other hand needs to be slapped every quarter and told "no!"

But the things that irritate are the lack of holding the ball's given and then the free's given to the poor guy who is at the bottom of the pack with 2 opposition players holding it to them. Or the lack of in the backs or high tackles gven to our midfielders when they put their head over the ball.

But I have always had no trouble with the umpiring when the team putting their head over the ball was getting more free's. Or if one team was being dirty or giving away the free's. But either we were second to the ball (won contests) or dirty cause that was the first time we have come equal in the free's this season (still a difference of 18?)

Frees in front of goal are worth a hell of a lot more than frees paid in the backline when your team is in possession and about to clear.

It is easy for umpires to observe the free count on the scoreboard at 3/4 time and even it up with worthless frees in defence after the game has been decided.

What matters is first is where they are paid and then when they are paid.

[rexy]

I think all that matters is if they are correct, and if they are inerpreted consistantly throughout the game!

Where or when they are paid is irrelevant to whether or not they are correct.

[ace]

I think all that matters is if they are correct, and if they are inerpreted consistantly throughout the game!

Where or when they are paid is irrelevant to whether or not they are correct.

Only if the umpires are being fair to both teams and are consistent throughout the match.

Regrettably the AFL umpiring is notorious for keeping teams in the game and evening up the free kick count later.

Any Saints fan, even those with one eye, who regularly attended games through the 1980s could not have helped notice how the umpires kept St Kilda in the game up to half time but then evened up the free count in the second half as the opposition teams ran away with the game.

[plugger66]

I think all that matters is if they are correct, and if they are inerpreted consistantly throughout the game!

Where or when they are paid is irrelevant to whether or not they are correct.

Only if the umpires are being fair to both teams and are consistent throughout the match.

Regrettably the AFL umpiring is notorious for keeping teams in the game and evening up the free kick count later.

Any Saints fan, even those with one eye, who regularly attended games through the 1980s could not have helped notice how the umpires kept St Kilda in the game up to half time but then evened up the free count in the second half as the opposition teams ran away with the game.

Just fantasy land stuff as usual.

[gringo]

It is probably more a tall poppy thing as we are the hunted now the umpires feel it too. They dont mind seeing a team of up and comers giving the elite teams a touch up.

The game I couldn't comprehend was the Collingwood match- they came out bumping and scragging and it was like the umpires were preempting a retaliation by the saints and were all over us while letting the situation go the other way.

In the Freo match there was some shocking decisions but not outragous overall. I thought one where Goddard was played holding the ball where he was crashed into without the tackle actually sticking was laughable as freo seemed to get let off for a more obvious holding situation a few minutes later.

the problem with the free kick count is on paper they look the same but play on to advantage, ruck infringements etc are not the same as a free kick directly in front from 25 meters. See swans game and collingwood matches as example.

[Mr Magic]

It is probably more a tall poppy thing as we are the hunted now the umpires feel it too. They dont mind seeing a team of up and comers giving the elite teams a touch up.

The game I couldn't comprehend was the Collingwood match- they came out bumping and scragging and it was like the umpires were preempting a retaliation by the saints and were all over us while letting the situation go the other way.

In the Freo match there was some shocking decisions but not outragous overall. I thought one where Goddard was played holding the ball where he was crashed into without the tackle actually sticking was laughable as freo seemed to get let off for a more obvious holding situation a few minutes later.

the problem with the free kick count is on paper they look the same but play on to advantage, ruck infringements etc are not the same as a free kick directly in front from 25 meters. See swans game and collingwood matches as example.

I take no notice of the free kick tally, other than as a statistic.
I would hate to think a free is/isn't paid because of an imbalance in the tally.

I just want/expect the umpires to pay free kicks when they see an infringement of the rules - immaterial of where it happens.

What I don't want them to do is to pay what they don't see.

There is absolutely no doubt that both Milne and Schneider (as an example) in the game against Fremantle did not receive a number of free kicks that should have been obvious to the relevant umpires given their position.
In stark contrast similar infringements were paid against Saints players.

There are only a few reasons possible for this:-
A continual series of umpiring mistakes
Umpiring incompetence
Deliberate poor decisions by the umpires.

I would hate to think that it is deliberate.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

At quarter time, I thought the umps had kept Freo in it. TBH, that didn't really bother me. In fact I turned to my brother and told him the free kick count being 11-5 against was a good thing.

I'd much rather get the raw end in the first quarter. Over the course of a 5 minute period, it's possible to get royally screwed. Over a quarter less likely, a game, it generally evens out, and over the course of the year, umpiring is only like to be a minor influence on the fortunes of a team.

It also needs to be remembered that certain players are free kick magnets: they're either naturally hard to stop (ala Reiwoldt) or make themselves hard to stop (Joel Selwood, Luke Ball).

Sandlilands and Pavlich are both free kick magnets, and it's not because the umpires love them.

By the end of Sunday, the calls had evened out: from mid-3rd on, most of the whistles went our way.

While Milney could say as an individual he had a rough night with the umps, over the course of the year, that's going to even out too - and as others have said, a lot of it's of his own making. What was truly impressive about Milne's game was that after the flopping got him nothing, after getting polaxed got him nothing, he continued working hard and imposed himself purely on skill and hard work. His challenge is to back it up, his share of calls will come.

But I'd rather they didn't come in the first quarter Saturday night

[gringo]

Agree it was a career defining moment for Milne -the guy could have been expected to keep his head down and go missing this week. He showed he is a real competitor not just a victim. Anyone who was calling for his head after the grand final should look at his year so far as an example of his value.

He has a personality that gets him into trouble but at any other club he would be respected a whole lot more. At the end of his career he will be remembered fondly by many Saints fans. Remember him playing as an undersized marking forward in his early days and has gone on to become the best forward pocket in the comp and a decent mid fielder when needed.

Compare him to a Didak or Leon Davis both are full of unrealised potential but Milney has the runs on the board over a long period.

[plugger66]

It is probably more a tall poppy thing as we are the hunted now the umpires feel it too. They dont mind seeing a team of up and comers giving the elite teams a touch up.

The game I couldn't comprehend was the Collingwood match- they came out bumping and scragging and it was like the umpires were preempting a retaliation by the saints and were all over us while letting the situation go the other way.

In the Freo match there was some shocking decisions but not outragous overall. I thought one where Goddard was played holding the ball where he was crashed into without the tackle actually sticking was laughable as freo seemed to get let off for a more obvious holding situation a few minutes later.

the problem with the free kick count is on paper they look the same but play on to advantage, ruck infringements etc are not the same as a free kick directly in front from 25 meters. See swans game and collingwood matches as example.

I take no notice of the free kick tally, other than as a statistic.
I would hate to think a free is/isn't paid because of an imbalance in the tally.

I just want/expect the umpires to pay free kicks when they see an infringement of the rules - immaterial of where it happens.

What I don't want them to do is to pay what they don't see.

There is absolutely no doubt that both Milne and Schneider (as an example) in the game against Fremantle did not receive a number of free kicks that should have been obvious to the relevant umpires given their position.
In stark contrast similar infringements were paid against Saints players.

There are only a few reasons possible for this:-
A continual series of umpiring mistakes
Umpiring incompetence
Deliberate poor decisions by the umpires.

I would hate to think that it is deliberate.

That first line is funny.

[Mr Magic]

It is probably more a tall poppy thing as we are the hunted now the umpires feel it too. They dont mind seeing a team of up and comers giving the elite teams a touch up.

The game I couldn't comprehend was the Collingwood match- they came out bumping and scragging and it was like the umpires were preempting a retaliation by the saints and were all over us while letting the situation go the other way.

In the Freo match there was some shocking decisions but not outragous overall. I thought one where Goddard was played holding the ball where he was crashed into without the tackle actually sticking was laughable as freo seemed to get let off for a more obvious holding situation a few minutes later.

the problem with the free kick count is on paper they look the same but play on to advantage, ruck infringements etc are not the same as a free kick directly in front from 25 meters. See swans game and collingwood matches as example.

I take no notice of the free kick tally, other than as a statistic.
I would hate to think a free is/isn't paid because of an imbalance in the tally.

I just want/expect the umpires to pay free kicks when they see an infringement of the rules - immaterial of where it happens.

What I don't want them to do is to pay what they don't see.

There is absolutely no doubt that both Milne and Schneider (as an example) in the game against Fremantle did not receive a number of free kicks that should have been obvious to the relevant umpires given their position.
In stark contrast similar infringements were paid against Saints players.

There are only a few reasons possible for this:-
A continual series of umpiring mistakes
Umpiring incompetence
Deliberate poor decisions by the umpires.

I would hate to think that it is deliberate.

That first line is funny.

Why?

[na exa]

split it in half bloke.

onya plugger

[Leo.J]

IMO the Umpires struggle early on in the season because of a couple of reasons.

The first is because every year the game speeds up making it harder to umpire.

The second is because the AFL have a new agenda every year, regararding the rules.

After about 10 or so rounds the umps catch up to the pace of the game, and they relax alot of the new interpretations and rules.

Then once the finals start, as they say 'the rule book gets put away', and most frees that would have been paid during the season are allowed...

While its really hard to do, I try to look at the umpiring as a random facet of the game, the umpires are human, I don't think they cheat, I do think they make many mistakes, and I do think they get get caught up in the energy and momentum of games - like everyone does.