Best 10 players - are very good

[BigMart]

N.Riewoldt - Elite....equal best fwd in the AFL
B.Goddard - Elite....Top ten in AFL IMO
L.Hayes - Elite.....for a long time
S.Fisher - A-Grade to Elite.......2nd best def in AFL
L.Montagna - A-Grade to Elite.....Damaging mid
N.Dal Santo - A-Grade to Elite....Damaging mid
S.Gilbert - A-Grade....one of the best defenders in AFL
C.Jones - A-Grade.....one of best taggers in AFL
J.Gram - A-Grade......Damaging mid
J.Koschitzke - B-Grade to A-Grade.....Structually Vital, in form hard to stop

Next level are coached well

Schnieder - B-Grade....Dangerous player
Ray - B-Grade.....solid mid
Blake - B-Grade....Flexilbe/Consistent defender
Milne - B-Grade.....Dangerous small fwd
Baker - C-Grade.....Small defender role
Dawson - C-Grade....Plays role as FB
Gwilt - C-Grade.....improved player...
Geary - C-Grade.....Developing midsize
Gardiner - C-Grade....#1 Ruck
Armitage - C-Grade....Developing back up mid
Peak - C-Grade....Back up used for Run (poor mans Gram/Ray)
McQualter - C-Grade....Plays role as Small fwd
McEvoy - D-Grade.....Back up deveoping Ruck


other D-Graders - Back ups or deveoping
King, Dempster, Eddy, Clarke, Stanley, Miles, Smith, Smith*, Steven

E-Graders - Devloping
Lynch, Cahill, McGrath, Simpkin, Walsh, Johnson, Gaertner, Archer, Hutchings, Winmar - all have upside

[Armoooo]

Agree with most of that...

but I think you have overrated Sam Fisher, Leigh Montagna and Koschitzke and underrated Andrew McQualter and Michael Gardiner.

[older saint]

N.Riewoldt - Elite....equal best fwd in the AFL
B.Goddard - Elite....Top ten in AFL IMO
L.Hayes - Elite.....for a long time
S.Fisher - A-Grade to Elite.......2nd best def in AFL
L.Montagna - A-Grade to Elite.....Damaging mid
N.Dal Santo - A-Grade to Elite....Damaging mid
S.Gilbert - A-Grade....one of the best defenders in AFL
C.Jones - A-Grade.....one of best taggers in AFL
J.Gram - A-Grade......Damaging mid
J.Koschitzke - B-Grade to A-Grade.....Structually Vital, in form hard to stop

Next level are coached well

Schnieder - B-Grade....Dangerous player
Ray - B-Grade.....solid mid
Blake - B-Grade....Flexilbe/Consistent defender
Milne - B-Grade.....Dangerous small fwd
Baker - C-Grade.....Small defender role
Dawson - C-Grade....Plays role as FB
Gwilt - C-Grade.....improved player...
Geary - C-Grade.....Developing midsize
Gardiner - C-Grade....#1 Ruck
Armitage - C-Grade....Developing back up mid
Peak - C-Grade....Back up used for Run (poor mans Gram/Ray)
McQualter - C-Grade....Plays role as Small fwd
McEvoy - D-Grade.....Back up deveoping Ruck


other D-Graders - Back ups or deveoping
King, Dempster, Eddy, Clarke, Stanley, Miles, Smith, Smith*, Steven

E-Graders - Devloping
Lynch, Cahill, McGrath, Simpkin, Walsh, Johnson, Gaertner, Archer, Hutchings, Winmar - all have upside

Underrated
Baker - Stitched up Davis, Akermanis and Johnson in the finals last year
Dempster and Clarke - Both in best 22 GF day so would have to be at least c grade unless aged significantly over summer like King

Overrated -
Gram - Great GF but need to see consistancy and improved disposal to be a grade

[rodgerfox]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

I'd expect and hope, that by season's end (his 4th year) he will have either recruited or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

[saintsRrising]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

Why?

The point you are blithely ignoring is that Lyon has made them in the main into better players.

[Con Gorozidis]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

I'd expect and hope, that by season's end (his 4th year) he will have either recruited or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

well he has improved milnes game. ud concede that. (milne was very close to getting the a$$ under GT).

but they say some coaches are good at developing kids and some better working with mature players? remember blight was considered rubbish with kids - and we probably went for him at the wrong time - when we need a guy who could develop kids - which is what GT was really good at..... maybe RL got the job because of the timing/list situation was mature and he suited that time?

so we will probably go for a "kids" coach next time (im thinking in 3 years after we win 2 flags) . horses for courses i guess. align your coach with your list?

[older saint]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

I'd expect and hope, that by season's end (his 4th year) he will have either recruited or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

All were not ranked so highly though
* Montgana was a B grade - perhaps natural progression,
* Dal was a b grade and dropped to the 2's due to poor work ethic on field, has stepped up immensly,
* When you finish in the top half of the ladder it is very hard to recruit a grade player or players which will ever be A grade

Lyon has done well with getting the most out of recruited players - some of which best maybe b grade. that is the key and what he is good at getting the best out of a players ability .

Mcqualter, Dawson, Ray, all had best seasons ever after being delisted or traded by their clubs. I would doubt that by years end anyone he has recruited will be in our best 10 , but would expect many to be in best 22 which is more important

[kaos theory]

good list.

imo: none are overrated (Kosi probably B atm). But I think these should be one level up:
Baker - B
mini - B
Gardiner - B

What I would like to see by the end of the year, these guys improve further:
Armo - B
Geary - B
Steven - B (with a bullet!)
McEvoy - C
Schnieder - A (Has the potential, but I doubt it)
Kosi - A (locked in....)
Jess Smith - B (recoverd from injury and flying...)

And a few others in E & D graders move up a level...

[kaos theory]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

I'd expect and hope, that by season's end (his 4th year) he will have either recruited or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

What?

When GT was coach, only 2 or 3 of those players were in the A grade/elite category.

Lyon has done a lot to improve many of the players with 'potential', but were inconsistent.

You need to do away with your constant negative view of RL.

[rodgerfox]

* Dal was a b grade and dropped to the 2's due to poor work ethic on field, has stepped up immensly,

AA and 3rd in a Brownlow.

[rodgerfox]

What?

When GT was coach, only 2 or 3 of those players were in the A grade/elite category.

Lyon has done a lot to improve many of the players with 'potential', but were inconsistent.

You need to do away with your constant negative view of RL.

What has GT got to do with it?

I'm making an observation that in 4 years at the helm, it's disappointing that only 1 guy the coach has brought to the club is considered to be in the Top 10.

I think that's a bit disappointing, and hopefully changes by year's end.

[rodgerfox]

Although obviously an opinion in terms of our Top 10, it's disappointing that all of them (bar Jones a mature aged recruit) were at the club and good players before Lyon arrived.

Why?

The point you are blithely ignoring is that Lyon has made them in the main into better players.

Oh. Ok.

Based on that then, I'd hope he cam make the guys he recruited into better players by the end of his 4th year and have more than 1 of them in the club's Top 10.

[Solar]

good list.

imo: none are overrated (Kosi probably B atm). But I think these should be one level up:
Baker - B
mini - B
Gardiner - B

What I would like to see by the end of the year, these guys improve further:
Armo - B
Geary - B
Steven - B (with a bullet!)
McEvoy - C
Schnieder - A (Has the potential, but I doubt it)
Kosi - A (locked in....)
Jess Smith - B (recoverd from injury and flying...)

And a few others in E & D graders move up a level...

really good OP and this additional thread hits the nail on the head.

Personally I have gardiner as a B and plays A games 2-4 times a year. Do that in a grand final and it would be great. His ability to work out wide is extremely important on it's day.

if armo and geary can move into B grade then we will improve the 10-20% needed to go the extra step. Not sure about steven and smith. They might push for first 22 but don't expect them to make a difference in 2010 IMO because of injury.

But the most important IMO is macca making the next step as a reliable second ruckman. Geelong yesterday showed what a good dual ruck pair can bring you and thats more ball for the midfield... can equal a couple of goals a game, could be the difference.

[meher baba]

BM: a thought-provoking post, as always.

Surely you've underrated Clarke. Any player who has been rated in the BOG group in a number of big games must surely be seen as more than a "backup" (I don't imagine you are suggesting that he is still "developing" in his 7th AFL season).

Raph's main problem is clearly that of consistency: in that sense, he is in a similar space to that occupied by Gram and Gilbert: albeit that he can't be seen as being quite as good a player as those two.

In most games, he manages to do a number of things that would stamp him as being in the "elite" category if he could do them all the time. However, he mixes them up with quite a few low grade efforts. Also, his manner makes him look as if he is a bit lost out there (I think this is what drives some of our fans to barrack him constantly). I actually believe he is normally not hesitant, but is looking around for the best option.

Anyway, enough of Raph. A couple of other points.

Do you really reckon that Miles right now is on a par with the likes of Dempster, King and Eddy (not to mention Raph)? I can't see it myself, but there's clearly something about him that Ross likes.

I'm also interested in your assessment of Gilbert as A grade. I wouldn't have thought he was quite there yet myself, due once again to his being a bit inconsistent. However, I am sure he will get there.

[saintsRrising]

or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

I don't follow you question.
He has.

[rexy]

Some really good posts on the site in the last couple of days, I agree on Gardiner, reckon he is B-A and very important. Hope Armitage and MacEvoy can move in to that bracket this year.

Kind of agree with you Rodger Fox, it concerns me that the younger guys on our list are only bit players when I see the likes of Selwood, Rich, Higgins, and some others really stamping themselves on games. Geelongs ability to introduce a first year player at the start of this season is super impressive.

Not sure this is necessarily a reflection on RL though, more on our recruiting for position Ie talls in Mac and Lynch. Still a concern.

Have you ever considered just saying, the only thing that worries me is that there is no one under 25 in our elite group instaed of making it an underhanded swat at the coach which you are undoubtably about to deny.

[rodgerfox]

or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

I don't follow you question.
He has.

I didn't ask a question.

Re-read my posts if it doesn't make sense to you.

It's very clear.

[Legendary]

I'd expect and hope, that by season's end (his 4th year) he will have either recruited or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

He has. Jones.

[rodgerfox]

Thanks Albert.

For those that missed this....

" it's disappointing that only 1 guy the coach has brought to the club is considered to be in the Top 10."

[PJ]

I'm making an observation that in 4 years at the helm, it's disappointing that only 1 guy the coach has brought to the club is considered to be in the Top 10.

This point is irrelevant - lyon came in when St.Kilda were already in the top 8 so it was perceived that Thomas could take a great list no further. Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

[saintsRrising]

Age

27..N.Riewoldt - Elite....equal best fwd in the AFL
24...B.Goddard - Elite....Top ten in AFL IMO
30...L.Hayes - Elite.....for a long time
27...S.Fisher - A-Grade to Elite.......2nd best def in AFL
26 L.Montagna - A-Grade to Elite.....Damaging mid
26...N.Dal Santo - A-Grade to Elite....Damaging mid
23...S.Gilbert - A-Grade....one of the best defenders in AFL
26...C.Jones - A-Grade.....one of best taggers in AFL
25...J.Gram - A-Grade......Damaging mid
27..J.Koschitzke - B-Grade to A-Grade.....Structually Vital, in form hard to stop

Age wise our top 10 are in good shape. Most are in their prime years and should be dominant fora while yet.

Roo this week on OneHD stated it was his intention to play on as long as his body let him. He stated that when he was younger that he was thinking that he would play to he was 30, but now sees it as being well past that.

The younger players of Steven, Ben, Stanley, Armo and the like will need to push up into the top 10 in time.

[Saints43]

or developed someone to move into the club's Top 10.

I don't follow you question.
He has.

Who, of these players, has RL made into better players? He's made some play the St Kilda plan better.

Allowance must be made for experince in the game and number of pre-seasons.

N.Riewoldt - Elite....equal best fwd in the AFL
B.Goddard - Elite....Top ten in AFL IMO
L.Hayes - Elite.....for a long time
S.Fisher - A-Grade to Elite.......2nd best def in AFL
L.Montagna - A-Grade to Elite.....Damaging mid
N.Dal Santo - A-Grade to Elite....Damaging mid
S.Gilbert - A-Grade....one of the best defenders in AFL
C.Jones - A-Grade.....one of best taggers in AFL
J.Gram - A-Grade......Damaging mid
J.Koschitzke - B-Grade to A-Grade.....Structually Vital, in form hard to stop

Which of the above were disappointments to people in 2006? Players that were on the long-term downward slide? If dropping NDS made him into a gun then a lot of other coaches have been very unlucky that this hasn't worked as well for them.

Jones excluded obviously as he has been brought to the club under RL.
Gilbert was a boy. Has become a very good player.

[PJ]

How many of that list were all australian before Lyon came?

[rodgerfox]

Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

[maverick]

Lyon's job was to make a brilliant team perform at their peak which they could not before. His other job would be to build the team underneath these players - clearly our defensive stats support this. Everyone other than your good self understands this.

St.Kilda circa 2010 are vastly different to the team that ran around 2006 in structure, development and attitude - so why would others replace them?

Take a great list and make them succeed as others could not.

So why did Lyon get rid of Ball and pay huge money to get Lovett?

$300k for a fringe player? I doubt it.

Because Ball is a C grade mid and Lovett would have been an A grade mid...
Huge money is an overtstatement, even for you....