The nagging question re: lyon

[rodgerfox]

I'm with you RF. Can't believe we'd just bomb it to Roo. He is after all an absolute spud of a player. Way over rated. Better off using him as some kind of decoy. Better still, put him in the backline. He'd be better off there. And can you imagine the confused looks on all those oppostion coaches faces! That'll get 'em. Yeah. Like Carey or Lockett or Franklin or whoever else. Nah. whatever you do don't RELY on your best players to perform too frequently. No. Roo's NOT an elite player with FREAKISH marking ability and an F1 motor...Nup...shouldn't rely on him or ask him to do what he's paid to do... Better off revolving our forward structure around Koz (who catches one in five) or Milne and Schneider (who are both 4 foot 2). Or Gwilt up there. He sets the world alight in fwd 50 doesn't he? Or Goddard. Man didn't he show red hot WEST COAST a thing or two last season in Rd 4. That'll fix everything. Can't wait to see it. Good thinking RF. You know you can really coach. Freakin' star. Love your work. Keep it up.

You're with me??

Based on what you've posted, you're not with me at all. That's not my view on the topic, not even close to it really.

[barks4eva]

That's not my view on the topic, not even close to it really.

Yes we know your view dodger!




Riewoldt had an adductor injury which heavily restricted him, he could not run like he normally does and so the thinking was try to isolate him near the goals and get it into him quickly,........ the whole thing was forced upon the coaching staff by circumstance, not design and not a case of just bomb it in long as you put it, rather get it to him quickly while he is one out!

Considering the conditions and the guinness book of records total for tackles etc... there was not a lot of clean ball for either side.......


BUT the fact was Riewioldt was injured and could not run as per usual, a glaring omission in your laterally challenged view, so in WET weather sometimes the best tactic is to get it in quickly and put pressure on the defence!

It was a slog and that telling moment when Schnieder had his jumper pulled off and was not awarded a free kick which might have put us 8 points up at the time was significant!

That the umpire was in perfect position five metres away and just happened to grow up in the Geelong area, supporting Geelong as a kid is a fair dinkum disgrace, this was a blatant case of out and out cheating, whispers from sleepy hollow!


We only made the Grand Final and had the season we did as a result of a brilliant game plan to begin with, so get off your inflatable and get a fair dinkum clue!

[saintsRrising]

Why are you talking about team football in this thread?

Because Mr Fisherman, Lyon's approach is to triumph by sticking to the gameplan rather than to try and win wit one speculative move after another..

Personally I hope that Lyon's sticks with his approach rather than trying pull rabbits out of hats to fluke wins.

Then why did he change tact in the final quarter of the GF?

On what?

[SainterK]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

[Moccha]

did alright tonight didn't he?

[Milan Faletic]

Do you honestly believe this?
Because our last coaches game plan was kick it long and quick and hope Fraser can outsmart his oponent.

I have no idea why you want to talk about previous coaches in this context, but seeing as you've raised it....

We were never going to win a flag with only 1 or 2 people kicking the goals.

Never.

When we had Guerra, Milne, Kosi, Hamill and Roo kicking goals we were very hard to contain.

But didn't win a flag or even play in a GF

When we just had Roo and Gehrig kicking the goals - we'd win games sure, but were never going to win the flag.

Agree...and your point is?

We didn't build solely around Gehrig at all. We had Roo, Hamill, Milne, Guerra (for a year), Kosi all as goal kickers.
When Hamill went down, even Voss was tried as an extra target. It was injuries that left us with few targets up forward.

So with five targets (or 6 with Voss)we couldn't make the GF.

Modern flags are never won by 1 or 2 guys kicking all your goals.

And yet we were effectively one goal from it and never got to play for the flag under the last coach.

Modern flags are never won off one person's boot.

Ross Lyon tried to do this. And it failed. He should have known better - and frankly he panicked.

But he got us in a position to actually win the flag while GT (who I also respect) never even got us in the position.

[rodgerfox]

Do you honestly believe this?
Because our last coaches game plan was kick it long and quick and hope Fraser can outsmart his oponent.

I have no idea why you want to talk about previous coaches in this context, but seeing as you've raised it....

We were never going to win a flag with only 1 or 2 people kicking the goals.

Never.

When we had Guerra, Milne, Kosi, Hamill and Roo kicking goals we were very hard to contain.

But didn't win a flag or even play in a GF

When we just had Roo and Gehrig kicking the goals - we'd win games sure, but were never going to win the flag.

Agree...and your point is?

We didn't build solely around Gehrig at all. We had Roo, Hamill, Milne, Guerra (for a year), Kosi all as goal kickers.
When Hamill went down, even Voss was tried as an extra target. It was injuries that left us with few targets up forward.

So with five targets (or 6 with Voss)we couldn't make the GF.

Modern flags are never won by 1 or 2 guys kicking all your goals.

And yet we were effectively one goal from it and never got to play for the flag under the last coach.

Modern flags are never won off one person's boot.

Ross Lyon tried to do this. And it failed. He should have known better - and frankly he panicked.

But he got us in a position to actually win the flag while GT (who I also respect) never even got us in the position.

To summarise - injuries killed us.

And secondly, the coach doesn't 'get us to a GF'.

[rodgerfox]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yeah, genius.

[saintsRrising]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yes there were some nice postional moves made at times while sticking to the game plan.

Note how in the tense last quarter that they dragged Kirk away from the ball-ups for a bit before Roos (too late for the Swans) woke up.


Interesting to read today that Lyon stated that they had been working on their goal-kicking over Summer. No surprise there, but the boys did look a lot cooler under intense pressure.

Gameplan wise it was noticeable that they have been refining quick ball movement into the forward line when on the rebound.

It is one reason I really like Lyon asa coach. He does not stand still. Always demands more and refines the gameplan and it's execution.

[Dr Spaceman]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yes there were some nice postional moves made at times while sticking to the game plan.

Note how in the tense last quarter that they dragged Kirk away from the ball-ups for a bit before Roos (too late for the Swans) woke up.


Interesting to read today that Lyon stated that they had been working on their goal-kicking over Summer. No surprise there, but the boys did look a lot cooler under intense pressure.

Gameplan wise it was noticeable that they have been refining quick ball movement into the forward line when on the rebound.

It is one reason I really like Lyon asa coach. He does not stand still. Always demands more and refines the gameplan and it's execution.

Agree he's looking good.

Maybe last year he was just foxing

[saintsRrising]

I was waiting for the howls of protests over Haye's TOG of 66%.

I mean in 2009 when we managed players who had trouble running out games (ie Ball) by use of their TOG there was howls of protest about Lyon bungling.

Pleasing to me too that Gardiner was not rushed back into the seniors despite the temptation there must have been to do so. He should hopeflly be in good nic ready for the North game.

[SainterK]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yeah, genius.

Hardly, but a move none the less

[Teflon]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yeah, genius.

Hardly, but a move none the less

yep paid dividends immediately....thats what good coaches do I guess....

[rodgerfox]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yeah, genius.

Hardly, but a move none the less

yep paid dividends immediately....thats what good coaches do I guess....

That's what all coaches do.

[markp]

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Yes.

[SainterK]

Nice bit of game day coaching by Ross sending Gram to the goalsquare when Shaw was getting the best of him, paid off within minutes.

Yeah, genius.

Hardly, but a move none the less

yep paid dividends immediately....thats what good coaches do I guess....

That's what all coaches do.

Including ours

[Solar]

back the OP

interesting to hear what others think but most of the change ups felt like they came pre-game once again. Kosi to sart in the ruck and macca up forward. Work gilbo into space etc.

I ponder whether we attempted to work BJ and schneider into the game via the midfield. Did notcethat when the game was up for grabs in the last, BJ was in the middle.

[saintsRrising]

back the OP

interesting to hear what others think but most of the change ups felt like they came pre-game once again. Kosi to start in the ruck and macca up forward. Work gilbo into space etc.

.

Again I think that is how Lyon works...and to have faith in his gameplan, in his players to deliver on it..

He does work the positional moves too though.

For example the Kirk move in the last quarter...the timing of that was clearly decided at the game...and was done beautifully. May have been a "move" that they had up their sleave, but what is wrong with that.

I would also believe that Gram move was decided upon during the game.

[Solar]

back the OP

interesting to hear what others think but most of the change ups felt like they came pre-game once again. Kosi to start in the ruck and macca up forward. Work gilbo into space etc.

.

Again I think that is how Lyon works...and to have faith in his gameplan, in his players to deliver on it..

He does work the positional moves too though.

For example the Kirk move in the last quarter...the timing of that was clearly decided at the game...and was done beautifully. May have been a "move" that they had up their sleave, but what is wrong with that.

I would also believe that Gram move was decided upon during the game.

Good calls and I'm fine if they have moves up their sleave, in fact I would be more worried that they had not thought of these outcomes in prep. I guess it's good to see he's having the guts to make the moves. It's a balance between backing your players and plan and creating better outcomes because of the state of play

[saintsRrising]

On "magical moves".

These days a team has a detailed gameplan. StKilda like every club has a gameplan with different elements to it.

Apart from when we have the ball, they have the ball, and when it is in dispute...there are variations depending on whether the Saints want to attack more, or want to play tempo footie. One on one will also be cranked out from time to time.

These gameplans and their variations all rely on every player knowing his role, and what his team-mates will be doing. They are drilled and honed in it.


Conversely to suddenly role out a "new magical" move that no player is aware of will lead to confusion as simply players will not know what to do and when to do it.

Positional moves don't affect this as the players will know the structures and roles of various positions.

But to pull out a genuine surprise will lead to a break down in team play.

The Saints like most teams will have been homing various set-plays. Which is one reason that training is largely closed these days.


I am reminded of a few seasons back when the Tigers pulled off a surprise win against I think it was the Crows who were flying at the time with an unusaul gameplan.

The Tigers move was obviously worked out and drilled prior to the game. The Crows players and coaches caught on the hop did not have a "practiced" plan to counter and their own gameplan broke down asa result,t and the Tigers triumphed.

So it does not surprise me in this age of TEAM football that most elements are worked out pre-game.

In this way we will become a little bit more like grid iron where a number of team plays are worked and and practiced...for use against various opponents and situations.

[rodgerfox]

Just a general question....

Did, or does, Ross Lyon make these moves?

Or does he back his assistants to do this like other coaches?


ie. taking Kirk away from stoppages should have been picked up by the midfield coach.

Does anyone actually know whether or not Ross Lyon made any of the moves that have been spoken about in this thread himself?

[iwantmeseats]

Just a general question....

Did, or does, Ross Lyon make these moves?

Or does he back his assistants to do this like other coaches?


ie. taking Kirk away from stoppages should have been picked up by the midfield coach.

Does anyone actually know whether or not Ross Lyon made any of the moves that have been spoken about in this thread himself?

...Because of course WE know exactly who is making what move.

[saintsRrising]

Just a general question....

Did, or does, Ross Lyon make these moves?

Or does he back his assistants to do this like other coaches?


ie. taking Kirk away from stoppages should have been picked up by the midfield coach.

Does anyone actually know whether or not Ross Lyon made any of the moves that have been spoken about in this thread himself?

Does it matter?

Lyon has assistants and one would hope that they all contribute rather than sit there like wall-flowers.

I mean we have a forward, mid and backline coach. Surely they are meant to be involved.

I would imagine suggestions and made..and some are acted upon and some not.

Some would be predecided...and some the various coaches would have responsibility for.

What matters is the overall gelling.

[rodgerfox]

Just a general question....

Did, or does, Ross Lyon make these moves?

Or does he back his assistants to do this like other coaches?


ie. taking Kirk away from stoppages should have been picked up by the midfield coach.

Does anyone actually know whether or not Ross Lyon made any of the moves that have been spoken about in this thread himself?

...Because of course WE know exactly who is making what move.

?

Is that an answer to my question? Is so, could you please elaborate because it isn't very clear.

[rodgerfox]

Just a general question....

Did, or does, Ross Lyon make these moves?

Or does he back his assistants to do this like other coaches?


ie. taking Kirk away from stoppages should have been picked up by the midfield coach.

Does anyone actually know whether or not Ross Lyon made any of the moves that have been spoken about in this thread himself?

Does it matter?

Lyon has assistants and one would hope that they all contribute rather than sit there like wall-flowers.

I mean we have a forward, mid and backline coach. Surely they are meant to be involved.

I would imagine suggestions and made..and some are acted upon and some not.

Some would be predecided...and some the various coaches would have responsibility for.

What matters is the overall gelling.

Whether it matters or not, wasn't the question. However I do think it's relevant in this thread.


O'Donnell had the headset on when he was at Brisbane and would directly make moves and calls off his own bat.

Longmire's been doing it at Sydney now for a couple of years aswell - as did Leon Cameron at the Dogs under Eade.


Does anyone know if Lyon made the move himself to get Kirk away from the clearances? Or to take Shaw deep?