The nagging question re: lyon

[Bernard Shakey]

Ross makes changes, but only at the breaks. He is not the most innovative coach going around and obviously needs time and support to make changes.

How many times in the past few years have we seen massive turn arounds quarter by quarter? He needs to learn to make instant proactive or reactive decisions.

As for Roo getting out of the goals, he owns the ground and can go where he likes. I was very pleased to see Kosi avoiding contact with Roo last week and I'm sure he's been instructed to do so.

[Jimmy1972]

Did anyone think we would win 19 H/A last year?

If you think Ross is has no idea about coaching based on pre-season, please somebody save us all.

[CeilidhSaint]

We lost the 2009 grand final becasue we missed easy shots at goal. We had opportunities to put Geelong to sleep on a wet day and didn't take them.
Lyon's coaching record speaks for itself.
He is respected as a coach and often, it is the players that under pressure situations go the bomb because they panic or know that 12 will mark it more than X player.
I don't agree the coach lost us the GF, the players did.

[bobmurray]

Did anyone think we would win 19 H/A last year?

If you think Ross is has no idea about coaching based on pre-season, please somebody save us all.

Where's GT.......

[Teflon]

A good thread.

There is no doubt Ross is a "structures" man. He has that philosophy and sticks to it.

I recall Kevin Sheedy once talking bout moves during games from the coaches box - he went on to mention that by and large these do not occur as often as people think and that they arent the panacea that many fans think they are.

I think Sydney under Roos is a structured approach also - I believe indiscretions aside.....Hall was let go because Roos decided the future Sydney "structures" just wouldnt include Hall.....my view only but Lyon clearly has similar approach.

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game? Not in my opinion......we had the chances to put the result well and truly outside a 12pt margin and its amazing what some scoreboard pressure on the day would/could have done to Geelongs structures....(could they have afforded Bartel as a pure tagger had we gone 40pts up at any stage??.....or would they have had to take risks to win it??)

Sure, hypothetical, but tactics and results IMO are all often simply cause-effect type stuff...and we had the chance to cause Bomber some nervous times and blew it.

[SainterK]

I agree, it's nice to have a actual discussion for once

[SainterK]

Ross makes changes, but only at the breaks. He is not the most innovative coach going around and obviously needs time and support to make changes.

How many times in the past few years have we seen massive turn arounds quarter by quarter? He needs to learn to make instant proactive or reactive decisions.

As for Roo getting out of the goals, he owns the ground and can go where he likes. I was very pleased to see Kosi avoiding contact with Roo last week and I'm sure he's been instructed to do so.

He shouldn't get out of the goals, just share the load some....it's no coincidence that if he own's the ground, that he might be understandably tired by the time he runs in to kick it.

That's why I argue at times it's not Ross expecting it of Roo, it's Roo expecting it of Roo...as I said, champion.

[Bernard Shakey]

Ross makes changes, but only at the breaks. He is not the most innovative coach going around and obviously needs time and support to make changes.

How many times in the past few years have we seen massive turn arounds quarter by quarter? He needs to learn to make instant proactive or reactive decisions.

As for Roo getting out of the goals, he owns the ground and can go where he likes. I was very pleased to see Kosi avoiding contact with Roo last week and I'm sure he's been instructed to do so.

He shouldn't get out of the goals, just share the load some....it's no coincidence that if he own's the ground, that he might be understandably tired by the time he runs in to kick it.

That's why I argue at times it's not Ross expecting it of Roo, it's Roo expecting it of Roo...as I said, champion.

I agree Roo does run so hard that there's not much left for the kick, but who's going to stop him? I'm not sure Ross wants to.

[n1ck]

great thread IMO... wish we had more of these!

I believe Lyon is abit slow off the mark in regards to 'mid-play' personnel changes, however, tactically and in preparation he is very, very good.

I think perhaps he got a little caught out in the frantic last minutes of the GF - and he himself has admitted that, but it seems like the players also finally showed a bit of stagefright, which they hadnt all week, nor all game up to them, bar one exception - the costly numerous missing of easy goals.

This is what lost us the game. Not what Geelong did in that last 1o minutes, not what RL did in those final panicky plays, but the players inability to convert multiple chances when the situation arose.

This is why we're still a 'one premiership wonder'.

[SainterK]

No, don't stop him...that's not the answer, but that is Rossy's challenge, to think of something. Let's just hope that with the addition of Lynch as a third forward, it keeps all the defenders accountable.

N1ck. Bartel onto Lenny was Bomber's move, Goddard moving forward was going to be ours I am sure of it....

The experience however will be invaluable, let's just hope we can get there, as the qualifier against the doggies made me realise just how hard it is.

[barks4eva]

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game?

OR perhaps Riewoldt had done his adductor at training on the Thursday before the Grand Final, heavily restricting him, so he could not run as much and the thinking was isolate Riewoldt one out at full forward and try to get it the ball to him as quickly as possible!

Being such a tight, tense struggle with guinness book of record stats for tackles in the wet, we just didn't win enough clean ball to actually get it quickly into a heavily restricted Riewoldt who didn't have much run in him due to injury, but still a very dangerous player within 20 metres of the goals,

so much so that on one occasion it took Taylor dragging him down with a hand on the shoulder while Scarlett jumped into him without any eye for the ball, front on, in the goal square, deep into the last quarter which would have put ST KILDA a goal ahead,........ umpire calls play on, obvious free kick not paid,

When we did break clear Schnieder had his jumped pulled into the Richmond Social Club while umpire Ryan with a perfect view five metres away, called play on, javascript:emoticon(':shock:') Ryan grew up in the Geelong area, supporting Geelong as a kid, still quite young is umpire Ryan and obviously still loves his catters

anyway I digress,

the FACT that Riewoldt had an adductor injury and was heavily restricted was most likely a very compelling reason as to why we were in some ways forced to go long in that last quarter,

circumstance rather than design,

When we make another Grand Final can we just please cancel the final training session?

[Solar]

A good thread.

There is no doubt Ross is a "structures" man. He has that philosophy and sticks to it.

I recall Kevin Sheedy once talking bout moves during games from the coaches box - he went on to mention that by and large these do not occur as often as people think and that they arent the panacea that many fans think they are.

I think Sydney under Roos is a structured approach also - I believe indiscretions aside.....Hall was let go because Roos decided the future Sydney "structures" just wouldnt include Hall.....my view only but Lyon clearly has similar approach.

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game? Not in my opinion......we had the chances to put the result well and truly outside a 12pt margin and its amazing what some scoreboard pressure on the day would/could have done to Geelongs structures....(could they have afforded Bartel as a pure tagger had we gone 40pts up at any stage??.....or would they have had to take risks to win it??)

Sure, hypothetical, but tactics and results IMO are all often simply cause-effect type stuff...and we had the chance to cause Bomber some nervous times and blew it.

some really interesting points in this thread and thankyou for those who have put their ego's at the door and played the issue and not the man.

I admit that injuries did cruel any pe-game tactics we could have played. Ross seems to come from the "keep few tricks up the sleeve" school of coaches and I challenge him to challenge himself and the squad. Push BJ to become the goal kicking midfielder he can be, push raph to back himself, challenge jimmy to command the situation down back and become another sam fisher. But also look at working outside the square.

I believe we would have learnt alot from the grand final last year but can't stand still. Suprise us during games, back your gut feeling ross....

interesting times me thinks

[Teflon]

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game?

OR perhaps Riewoldt had done his adductor at training on the Thursday before the Grand Final, heavily restricting him, so he could not run as much and the thinking was isolate Riewoldt one out at full forward and try to get it the ball to him as quickly as possible!

Being such a tight, tense struggle with guinness book of record stats for tackles in the wet, we just didn't win enough clean ball to actually get it quickly into a heavily restricted Riewoldt who didn't have much run in him due to injury, but still a very dangerous player within 20 metres of the goals,

so much so that on one occasion it took Taylor dragging him down with a hand on the shoulder while Scarlett jumped into him without any eye for the ball, front on, in the goal square, deep into the last quarter which would have put ST KILDA a goal ahead,........ umpire calls play on, obvious free kick not paid,

When we did break clear Schnieder had his jumped pulled into the Richmond Social Club while umpire Ryan with a perfect view five metres away, called play on, javascript:emoticon(':shock:') Ryan grew up in the Geelong area, supporting Geelong as a kid, still quite young is umpire Ryan and obviously still loves his catters

anyway I digress,

the FACT that Riewoldt had an adductor injury and was heavily restricted was most likely a very compelling reason as to why we were in some ways forced to go long in that last quarter,

circumstance rather than design,

When we make another Grand Final can we just please cancel the final training session?

Good point Barks and in truth I hadnt considered from that angle - I was more going from what Lyon.

Regardless, I dont think it cost us the game at all - we did that ourselves earlier.

[SainterK]

A good thread.

There is no doubt Ross is a "structures" man. He has that philosophy and sticks to it.

I recall Kevin Sheedy once talking bout moves during games from the coaches box - he went on to mention that by and large these do not occur as often as people think and that they arent the panacea that many fans think they are.

I think Sydney under Roos is a structured approach also - I believe indiscretions aside.....Hall was let go because Roos decided the future Sydney "structures" just wouldnt include Hall.....my view only but Lyon clearly has similar approach.

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game? Not in my opinion......we had the chances to put the result well and truly outside a 12pt margin and its amazing what some scoreboard pressure on the day would/could have done to Geelongs structures....(could they have afforded Bartel as a pure tagger had we gone 40pts up at any stage??.....or would they have had to take risks to win it??)

Sure, hypothetical, but tactics and results IMO are all often simply cause-effect type stuff...and we had the chance to cause Bomber some nervous times and blew it.

some really interesting points in this thread and thankyou for those who have put their ego's at the door and played the issue and not the man.

I admit that injuries did cruel any pe-game tactics we could have played. Ross seems to come from the "keep few tricks up the sleeve" school of coaches and I challenge him to challenge himself and the squad. Push BJ to become the goal kicking midfielder he can be, push raph to back himself, challenge jimmy to command the situation down back and become another sam fisher. But also look at working outside the square.

I believe we would have learnt alot from the grand final last year but can't stand still. Suprise us during games, back your gut feeling ross....

interesting times me thinks

That there I rate as one of his biggest strengths, his ability to challenge and get the best out of people. New recruits, and reforming the bad habits of exisiting players....

I agree that if the game calls for it, he should go creative. I believe he did that last year, against Carlton, where Zac found himself in space in the forward fifty and kicked that crucial goal. Makes you think he has the ability to....

Interesting, makes me wonder if Bomber had the Bartel plan up his sleeve, or if he went with his gut instinct on the day? I personally lean towards the fact it was preplanned, only because he admitted later that his biggest headache of the day was Gram.

[Solar]

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game?

OR perhaps Riewoldt had done his adductor at training on the Thursday before the Grand Final, heavily restricting him, so he could not run as much and the thinking was isolate Riewoldt one out at full forward and try to get it the ball to him as quickly as possible!

Being such a tight, tense struggle with guinness book of record stats for tackles in the wet, we just didn't win enough clean ball to actually get it quickly into a heavily restricted Riewoldt who didn't have much run in him due to injury, but still a very dangerous player within 20 metres of the goals,

so much so that on one occasion it took Taylor dragging him down with a hand on the shoulder while Scarlett jumped into him without any eye for the ball, front on, in the goal square, deep into the last quarter which would have put ST KILDA a goal ahead,........ umpire calls play on, obvious free kick not paid,

When we did break clear Schnieder had his jumped pulled into the Richmond Social Club while umpire Ryan with a perfect view five metres away, called play on, javascript:emoticon(':shock:') Ryan grew up in the Geelong area, supporting Geelong as a kid, still quite young is umpire Ryan and obviously still loves his catters

anyway I digress,

the FACT that Riewoldt had an adductor injury and was heavily restricted was most likely a very compelling reason as to why we were in some ways forced to go long in that last quarter,

circumstance rather than design,

When we make another Grand Final can we just please cancel the final training session?

Good point Barks and in truth I hadnt considered from that angle - I was more going from what Lyon.

Regardless, I dont think it cost us the game at all - we did that ourselves earlier.

It's funny what we all saw as the reason we lost, for mine it was our inability to throw our side around to cover the small quick forwards from geelong. It was horrible watching raph get turned inside out playing a role that he was unsuited to. Then there was me screaming out "who the hell is on chapman"..... anyway will keep tabs on lyons coaching during the real season and see if anything changes

[Solar]

A good thread.

There is no doubt Ross is a "structures" man. He has that philosophy and sticks to it.

I recall Kevin Sheedy once talking bout moves during games from the coaches box - he went on to mention that by and large these do not occur as often as people think and that they arent the panacea that many fans think they are.

I think Sydney under Roos is a structured approach also - I believe indiscretions aside.....Hall was let go because Roos decided the future Sydney "structures" just wouldnt include Hall.....my view only but Lyon clearly has similar approach.

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game? Not in my opinion......we had the chances to put the result well and truly outside a 12pt margin and its amazing what some scoreboard pressure on the day would/could have done to Geelongs structures....(could they have afforded Bartel as a pure tagger had we gone 40pts up at any stage??.....or would they have had to take risks to win it??)

Sure, hypothetical, but tactics and results IMO are all often simply cause-effect type stuff...and we had the chance to cause Bomber some nervous times and blew it.

some really interesting points in this thread and thankyou for those who have put their ego's at the door and played the issue and not the man.

I admit that injuries did cruel any pe-game tactics we could have played. Ross seems to come from the "keep few tricks up the sleeve" school of coaches and I challenge him to challenge himself and the squad. Push BJ to become the goal kicking midfielder he can be, push raph to back himself, challenge jimmy to command the situation down back and become another sam fisher. But also look at working outside the square.

I believe we would have learnt alot from the grand final last year but can't stand still. Suprise us during games, back your gut feeling ross....

interesting times me thinks

That there I rate as one of his biggest strengths, his ability to challenge and get the best out of people. New recruits, and reforming the bad habits of exisiting players....

I agree that if the game calls for it, he should go creative. I believe he did that last year, against Carlton, where Zac found himself in space in the forward fifty and kicked that crucial goal. Makes you think he has the ability to....

Interesting, makes me wonder if Bomber had the Bartel plan up his sleeve, or if he went with his gut instinct on the day? I personally lean towards the fact it was preplanned, only because he admitted later that his biggest headache of the day was Gram.

good point and we will never really know, kinda like if BJ forward might have been one of lyons aces that never came about because of injury.... it's a game of inches hey!

btw forgot about the zac move? didn't he just drift forward like a centre back in soccer?

[SainterK]

A good thread.

There is no doubt Ross is a "structures" man. He has that philosophy and sticks to it.

I recall Kevin Sheedy once talking bout moves during games from the coaches box - he went on to mention that by and large these do not occur as often as people think and that they arent the panacea that many fans think they are.

I think Sydney under Roos is a structured approach also - I believe indiscretions aside.....Hall was let go because Roos decided the future Sydney "structures" just wouldnt include Hall.....my view only but Lyon clearly has similar approach.

In saying that Lyon did take some of the blame for the bombing to long to Riewoldt in the GF and I do think there was an element of big stage fright in that......and inexperience......did that cost us the game? Not in my opinion......we had the chances to put the result well and truly outside a 12pt margin and its amazing what some scoreboard pressure on the day would/could have done to Geelongs structures....(could they have afforded Bartel as a pure tagger had we gone 40pts up at any stage??.....or would they have had to take risks to win it??)

Sure, hypothetical, but tactics and results IMO are all often simply cause-effect type stuff...and we had the chance to cause Bomber some nervous times and blew it.

some really interesting points in this thread and thankyou for those who have put their ego's at the door and played the issue and not the man.

I admit that injuries did cruel any pe-game tactics we could have played. Ross seems to come from the "keep few tricks up the sleeve" school of coaches and I challenge him to challenge himself and the squad. Push BJ to become the goal kicking midfielder he can be, push raph to back himself, challenge jimmy to command the situation down back and become another sam fisher. But also look at working outside the square.

I believe we would have learnt alot from the grand final last year but can't stand still. Suprise us during games, back your gut feeling ross....

interesting times me thinks

That there I rate as one of his biggest strengths, his ability to challenge and get the best out of people. New recruits, and reforming the bad habits of exisiting players....

I agree that if the game calls for it, he should go creative. I believe he did that last year, against Carlton, where Zac found himself in space in the forward fifty and kicked that crucial goal. Makes you think he has the ability to....

Interesting, makes me wonder if Bomber had the Bartel plan up his sleeve, or if he went with his gut instinct on the day? I personally lean towards the fact it was preplanned, only because he admitted later that his biggest headache of the day was Gram.

good point and we will never really know, kinda like if BJ forward might have been one of lyons aces that never came about because of injury.... it's a game of inches hey!

btw forgot about the zac move? didn't he just drift forward like a centre back in soccer?

I remember, only because I threw it at Rodger when he said Ross wasn't a good game day coach a few months ago

I am pretty sure it wasn't a case of him drifiting up there, I am pretty confident he was directed to. That was one of my favourite matches last year, and on reflection, probably largely due to the unpredictabilty of the win.

I am confident Ross will evolve and learn, admitting to his mistakes withing seconds of the GF siren was a sign to me that he at least knows what's wrong.

I really do hope he coaches us to our next flag, I really think he deserves to.

[Solar]

I have found that when the game gets close some parts of the game gets lost to me, thats why I love re-watching the game on TV because sometimes you can be lost via following the ball.

[barks4eva]

Fact is Ross Lyon coached us to a Grand Final with a spectacular season and a game plan the rest of the competition is now trying to copy,

and in the end it rained heavily giving Geelong a distinct advantage,.....ie it suited them a whole lot more than us,

goal umpiring error cost us two goals in 20 seconds, directly and indirectly,

umpire decisions not paid to Schnieder and Riewoldt in the last quarter had a bit of whispers from the sleepy hollow about them,

Riewoldt did his adductor at the final training session, heavily restricting him in the Grand Final, most likely the reason as to why we were forced to go long in the last quarter,

and even then Ross Lyon's game plan had us dominating for a large part of the game( except on the scoreboard ) in the wet against the best wet weather team in the competition and but for woeful finishing in front of goal, he'd be a Premiership coach already,

We have a lot to be thankful about and Lyon is one of the most tactically astute coaches in the business, chooses his words carefully and thinks laterally,

that we read so much negativity on here about OUR coach after a stellar 20-2 season where we most likely engineered the two losses anyway, says more about the people criticizing Lyon, than anything to do with him, let alone reality!

[bob__71]

I still wake up in cold sweats thinking about that coaching blunder and how it cost us a flag.

Really some of you Footy Fans take this whole AFL thing too seriously. I find it a bit embarrassing that a grown man would let a game so seriously to effect their sleep.

[markp]

I think Lyon has shown he doesn't like to make reactive changes, as we have seen with team selection. I see it as a conscious decision, not a personal fault.

I support OUR coach 100%.... I'm sure there are a few armchair coaches out there who deep down (or maybe not so!) think they could do a better job, and I pity them in this delusion.

[Saints43]

I'm not sure how much a wet day assists the team who handles the ball more than any team in history meeting the team who apply the fastest most consistent pressure.

I think the coaches tactical work is just about done by Thursday night. On Saturday his job is about ensuring effort is applied to what players already know and processes (tempo, passing players through etc) are being applied.

It must be a very difficult decision to make positional changes to an extremely successful structure with a chance that the result of the fix will be worse than the problem.

When we cleared the 50 in the last quarter we ended up playing into Geelongs hands. That's the way it turned out. In a close game like that, an inch here or there, the bounce of the ball, and it way have worked.

All we can ask is that the team is sent out with an effective game style and a preparedness to work hard. We had that all last year. I don't think we should expect game turning moves from the box on any regular basis.

I can't think of too many times watching the game where a regularly successful plan has been significantly changed to effect the result. Surprise tactics are for team like Richmond v Adelaide where they kept the ball. St Kilda v Sydney with total-flood. Teams who have no expectation and therefore really have nothing to lose.

[spert]

Practice match form folks. The only concern I have in our goal for a flag, is the fact to me that Kosi never reached his potential and Milne is a failure in finals -fix that one Ross and we'll win a flag.

[dals_da_bomb]

Fantastic thread..

im not sure really what to say!! i agree with a lot of things that have been said regarding Roo beig our to heavly relied on go to man... the thoughts put up as to reasons of our loss last year and great reading and i am finding im nodding me head with quite a few but also take in to consideration what bakes has mentioned.
the posts have really given me food for thought, and im enjoying reading everyones thoughts.

Rodgerfox.. please ingore the post a few posts up... everyone else is enjoying the thread so much as it also seems you are.
Bob- take your complaints somewhere else, and please let the great reading continue.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I cannot grant the premise of any of the flaws I've seen thrown up in this thread:

1) Lyon doesn't implement in-game changes? Maybe not in a NAB cup game, but he's made matchup changes since day 1, made setup moves such as Goddard at FF just to give matchup headaches to the opposition, we saw Zac Dawson kick the winning goal in a game last year. We haven't plan B'd anyone since '08... but we were 20-2 last year, why would we have plan B'd anyone?

2) Too much reliance on Reiwoldt? Nick Reiwoldt is one of the top 5 guys in the comp. You don't stop him, you just try to contain him. As a coach, you either understand that when he's on the ground he's going to command the ball a lot no matter what you do, or you end up working against him - and your team.

Do players kick to him when there are better options? Yes, of course they do. That's an issue that comes with having a great CHF. I'd rather have the problem that not.

3) While the players are going to give effort in any game, your coaching dept isn't going to play all their cards in a NAB cup game. They don't necessarily have solutions to everything, but if they've got a better solution to man-on-man than we saw in that game, it now gets a 1/4s free use when we play the Dogs. If they don't, they now have something to work on.