stanley or kosi for round 1

[plugger66]

And anyone who thinks 3 talls will stretch sides will find out we will be the one stretched when the ball rebounds out of our forward line to easily which is totally against our current game plan.

While that last point is a good one against many talls....I don't think it is against Stanley who has the pace and aerobic ability to run down most players.

He may as does Rooy but bigmen dont get the same tackle count as smalls to mids.

[saintsRrising]

He may as does Rooy but bigmen dont get the same tackle count as smalls to mids.

Nic Nat laid a few tackles not long back.

Most big men don;t have Stanley's pace.

Also it is not just tackling...but applying pressure so that players have to dispose of the ball quickly.

From what I have seen of Stanlet he is good in this apect and will IMO get better.

[plugger66]

He may as does Rooy but bigmen dont get the same tackle count as smalls to mids.

Nic Nat laid a few tackles not long back.

Most big men don;t have Stanley's pace.

Also it is not just tackling...but applying pressure so that players have to dispose of the ball quickly.

From what I have seen of Stanlet he is good in this apect and will IMO get better.

He is and will get better but he cant play as an forward onballer as he isnt good enough below his knees and that is what a HFF is these days.

[saintsRrising]

He is and will get better but he cant play as an forward onballer as he isnt good enough below his knees and that is what a HFF is these days.

Ah...that is a different argument and one reason why I want to see him play more as I don't really know how good he is in this regard.

We also need to see if he can be more than marking target when playing us a forward.

So far so good...but he has had little ground time and so has not really been tested.

[vacuous space]

Nic Nat laid a few tackles not long back.

Naitanui is a freak. He's got more contested ball than anybody at this point and more ground balls than anybody. He's got 28 contested possessions in two games and only 1 of them was a contested mark. Stanley's had four contested possessions and three of them were contested marks. He's playing in a different part of the ground though. Still, I wouldn't compare anybody to Nat right now. As it stands, there's nobody like him.

[bergsone]

If both play maybe Stanley playing off the bench,Kosi playing more in the ruck ,but if that happens i can only see 1 of Macca,king ,Gardiner getting a gig .Like to see Stanley get good % of game time this week ,to see where he is really at

Hopefully coaching staff already know

[meher baba]

Are some of you guys for real?

Stanley in our Rd 1 lineup? Stanley for Kosi?

Losing patience with Kosi? Why not with Riewoldt: he didn't do that much on Saturday night!

Lenny's looking a bit old: let's replace him too.

Play the kids! Get some games into them!

There aren't any 9 point goals in the regular season, so what hope have we got. I say play the kids!

[bigcarl]

I realise he has a long way to go before he is mentioned in the same breath as riewoldt, but his attributes ... pace, marking ability, height etc, confidence a d general assuredness ... mark him as one of the best prospects since.

I wonder if Ross would find a spot for a 19-year-old riewoldt in the current side?  

Sorry is this Roo who has played footie all his life...or Stanley Roo who was until very recently a basketballer???

You are comparing apples and oranges.

not so. at 19 stanley is an exciting prospect, just as a young riewoldt once was.

you have admitted as much in other posts. in fact, most admit as much.

[saintsRrising]

I realise he has a long way to go before he is mentioned in the same breath as riewoldt, but his attributes ... pace, marking ability, height etc, confidence a d general assuredness ... mark him as one of the best prospects since.

I wonder if Ross would find a spot for a 19-year-old riewoldt in the current side?  

Sorry is this Roo who has played footie all his life...or Stanley Roo who was until very recently a basketballer???

You are comparing apples and oranges.

not so. at 19 stanley is an exciting prospect, just as a young riewoldt once was. you have admitted as much in other posts. in fact, most have admitted as much.

Apples and oranges..

Roo was a clear No 1 who was ready to play.
Stanley is an atheltic freak ready to be developed when he joined us..

Roo joined us when we were clearly a team about to be re-built around the core of the 97 GF team with many holes to fill and a long way to go. Places in the team were easy to get...moreso as huge quanitiies of the list were out injured.

Stanley has join when Lyon is tinkering to get us a little bit better...but with a team now mature and bulging in depth so that places are hard to get. Injury rate is low.


Back when most on this forum were bagging the crap out of Lyon I was a staunch supporter of his because to me he had a vision and was trying to get the players engaged and committed to it..and able to play his way.

Stanley is no different. Exciting he may be, but he has to learn how to play the game the St Kilda Way.

Lets see Stanley play some more footy first.

PS: Walsh is an exciting prospect too.

You are comparing Roo Apples with Stanley Oranges.

[saintsRrising]

you have admitted as much in other posts. in fact, most admit as much.

Yes I stated after I watched him play his first Sandi game that he was going to be something special. I am a Stanley fan. But I am more of a fan of doing things the right way.

Does not mean that he is worthy YET of round 1 selection.

Lets see how he goes in the remainder of the NAB.
Right here and now he has not done enough to displace others from the 22.

Lots can happen yet.
*Kosi is being run into fitness
*Prake is being a chance to gel with his new team-matrs
*Gwilt a chance to play across down back
* Big Ben has his hand up to play..
* steven will be desperate to shine to break in as well.

and then there is Geary, Demspter etc...


One thing I know about Lyon..he DEVELOPS and GROWS players...or at least gives players every chance too.

Yes he does not rush players.

But was it good that Ball, X, Kosi and Raph were all rushed as 19 year olds?

Maybe Beetham would be starring for the saints now if he was DEVELOPED rather than expected to be an instant AFL player????

[Dr Spaceman]

you have admitted as much in other posts. in fact, most admit as much.

Yes I stated after I watched him play his first Sandi game that he was going to be something special. I am a Stanley fan. But I am more of a fan of doing things the right way.

Does not mean that he is worthy YET of round 1 selection.

Lets see how he goes in the remainder of the NAB.
Right here and now he has not done enough to displace others from the 22.

Lots can happen yet.
*Kosi is being run into fitness
*Prake is being a chance to gel with his new team-matrs
*Gwilt a chance to play across down back
* Big Ben has his hand up to play..
* steven will be desperate to shine to break in as well.

and then there is Geary, Demspter etc...


One thing I know about Lyon..he DEVELOPS and GROWS players...or at least gives players every chance too.

Yes he does not rush players.

But was it good that Ball, X, Kosi and Raph were all rushed as 19 year olds?

Maybe Beetham would be starring for the saints now if he was DEVELOPED rather than expected to be an instant AFL player????

You had me at hello............but you lost me at maybe Beetham would be starring for the saints now

[bigcarl]

SRR, my point is merely that some young players, if they are good enough, can make an impact pretty early on. it is not without precedent.

ditterich, for example. brereton. more recently natanui, selwood.

holding such a player back might be more harmful to a team's prospects than throwing him in at the deep end.

ross's judgement is pretty sound on these things, so we are in good hands, but he does tend to err on the conservative side.

it will be interesting to see what happens. i do predict that stanley will be a regular before the season is out.

[saintsRrising]

ross's judgement is pretty sound on these things, so we are in good hands, but he does tend to err on the conservative side.

.

Why does Lyon err on the conservative side?
What is your basis for saying so?

Lyon has developed an innovative gameplan. Hardly conservative.
Lyon has traded a lot. Hardly conservative.

Lyon seems to be a keen believer in DEVELOPING players and in them knowing what to do...and in them demonstrating that they have the capability to be in the senior team.

I don't call that conservative...I call it astute coaching.

If I am confident about one thing..it is that our coaching panel will have development plan mapped out for Rhys. You and I just do not know what it is. Whatever it is he may go faster or slower..and injuries or lack of form of others may provide earlier opportunity...or not.

I like most fans are hoping to see a lot more of Stanley in the next couple of games. We may or may not.

[ace]

Stanley will play centre half forward or full forward in round 1







for Sandringham.

[Bernard Shakey]

Stanley will play centre half forward or full forward in round 1







for Sandringham.

No, he'll be in the ruck for Sandy.

[ace]

Stanley will play centre half forward or full forward in round 1







for Sandringham.

No, he'll be in the ruck for Sandy.

1st ruck that's McEvoy's job.

[Dr Spaceman]

Stanley will play centre half forward or full forward in round 1







for Sandringham.

No, he'll be in the ruck for Sandy.

If Stanley is to start off the year at Sandy I would like to see him play in the forward line and develop his skills, rather than get banged up knocking bodies against some VFL cavemen.

There's plenty of time to develop his ruck skills down the track, if indeed that's where his future lies. I don't hold to the arguement that just because he's 200 cm that he is destined to be a ruckman.

[Rickabee]

I'm enjoying back & forth and I appreciate the points that many are making here.

Stanley was recruited as a "Ruckman" but now many are saying he is a KPP. I think this wiill all evolve with time. He might be either - we don't know yet.

We should all bear in mind that almost all KPP's start out their careers as a flanker so they don't take the opposition no. 1 defender/forward (HF vs HB). They do their "apprenticeship" as a flanker near a more senior KPP. Stanley is a possible fit in this role. He doesn't have the body mass to challenge for a KPP position or Ruckman now.

Plugger and others - your point about an apprenticeship is very important and we don't want to see the kid rushed forward before his time (see Zac Dawson). However, remember that Ross is giving him time to learn by pairing him on Rooey over the summer. Is it enough? Probably not yet, but lets see him get some more game time in the remaining NAB matches and get a better idea of how close to ready he is. I do want to see that same thing for Lynch and Heyne (or asnyone else who could be effective) for the HFF position. I would want someone to fill in the role of a goal scoring HFF and I'd replace Dempster in that role.

The other thing to consider is maybe we are ready for a paradigm change in this role due to his disntinct capabilities (needs to be confirmed by MORE match play AND he probably won't be able to sustain it for a full year??). In the 1960's a KPP was 6'2" (except for Baldock) and Ruckman were 6'4" (except for Alan Morrow). Everybody wondered how a tall lanky Len Thompson (at 6'7") could be affective? Remember how everyone was so surprised when Richmond played two 6" wingmen in Bourke & Clay - how could they possibly be effective at ground level?

In the last year we have seen Natinui, Ryder and Mitchell Clark challenge our perception of how ruckmen play.

All I am saying, and I believe many of the others are saying, is let's just see some more game time and how effective could he be. I have an open mind at this stage and I just want to see a goal kicking HFF developed this year.

I currently don't consider Stanley as a substitute for Kosi. I don't believe he would be able to cope with the battering and closer attention at this stage and especially over a whole season. IMHO that would be "feeding him to the wolves".

I look forward to some more observations by others.

[SainterK]

Where I probably differ to other people, I actually think Kosi deserves to play FF. People have quickly forgotten how good he was until injuring his hand, some call the injuries excuses or crutches, I call them the reality of throwing your body around and crashing the packs.

We have a unique forward line, where the expectation is there for Kosi to put his body on the line and take contested marks, or at the very least create a contest so the ball spills to our opportunist small forwards.

Stanley is exciting, he is going to be a player, but he is young and needs to be managed properly. Unless he is somehow unique and will be able to float around without a defender or two, or his body is immune to banging and crashing against a few bodies at a time, he would do better to grow into this role.

Kosi to kick his 50+ this year, and while crashing the packs and allowing our small forwards to kick goals from the spillage doesn't get counted as goal assists, I appreciate them.

[Dr Spaceman]

Where I probably differ to other people, I actually think Kosi deserves to play FF. People have quickly forgotten how good he was until injuring his hand, some call the injuries excuses or crutches, I call them the reality of throwing your body around and crashing the packs.

We have a unique forward line, where the expectation is there for Kosi to put his body on the line and take contested marks, or at the very least create a contest so the ball spills to our opportunist small forwards.

Stanley is exciting, he is going to be a player, but he is young and needs to be managed properly. Unless he is somehow unique and will be able to float around without a defender or two, or his body is immune to banging and crashing against a few bodies at a time, he would do better to grow into this role.

Kosi to kick his 50+ this year, and while crashing the packs and allowing our small forwards to kick goals from the spillage doesn't get counted as goal assists, I appreciate them.

Spot on.

[Milan Faletic]

I would still definitely go with Kosi as SainterK said.

I am interested to know how his shoulder is, as well as the injury he sustained last year.

Stanley needs to be nurtured and brought in slowly and carefully. People forget that Rooey was injured in the first year he was drafted with Kosi and didn't play for most of his first year.

I just want to see Kosi at his best and while we have seen glimpses of it, it would be great to get a full year of him, as close as possible to his best.

As per my signature below.

[saintsRrising]

The other thing to consider is maybe we are ready for a paradigm change

Paradigm shifts can also be just be due to the limits of one's memory...and what is available at any given time...though yes the game is always evolving and athletes, and athletic ability, are more important than ever. Football ability still counts though!!!

Mobile ruckman are not new. ie Peter Moore, Carl Ditterich..Polly Farmer???

Tall Forwards kicking goals...Paul Salmon???

Now: Tippet is 201 cm, Westhoff is 198cm

Good players come and go...and players who are not the norm can redefine positions. Sometimes due to a lack of options resulting in someone having to step into the breech and sometimes for other reasons.

Barker too small for FB?

George moving to FF after doing his knee and being pretty good there.

Talent always rises to the for and sometimes takes surprising forms.

Height is not the key determinant one way or the other for a forward role. ability to play as forward is.

Ditto for the ruck...and for that matter for any position on the field.

Some players can play many positions....some only the one.

Hamill for example was a star forward but IMO when played back was quite average.

With Stanley...we await to see which role or roles he is best at. However the early signs are that he will be something special.

[saintsRrising]

People forget that Rooey was injured in the first year he was drafted with Kosi and didn't play for most of his first year.

.

Indeed as I raised earlier...with our early draft picks that were made to play early we have not done that well and one really needs to consider whether a less rushed approach would have achieved more results.

Roo, Kosi, X, Raph, Ball....all played a lot early..and all had early injury problems with a chunk of them retaining a poor injury run.

[bigcarl]

ross's judgement is pretty sound on these things, so we are in good hands, but he does tend to err on the conservative side.

.

Why does Lyon err on the conservative side?
What is your basis for saying so?

well, for example, in the main he believes in players serving a lengthy apprenticeship. and there's a lot to be said for that approach.

but no need to be so defensive on his behalf. it was more an observation ... i believe an accurate one ... than a criticism.

[plugger66]

Lets look at real footy and decide if we should play Stanley ahead of Kosi so we must look at last year. Kosi, over 50 goals and even though he is overated IMO is a vital member of our foward line. Stanley played in the seconds, mainly in the ruck and looks hugely promising. This season, in practice games, Kosi has really struggled and Stanley has probably played a total of 3 quarters and looks even more promising than last year up forward.

So now people want Stanley to replace Kosi. Well that would be end for Kosi. Does his job in proper footy and dropped. Great for morole that would be so obviously RL isnt going to do that.

Now can Stanley play ahead of someone else. IMO not yet as a ruckman and also not as a third tall in the forward line. Sides are getting smaller if anything and you only need 2 KPP players these days. A HFF is an onballer these days and as good as Stanley has been going I cannot see him in the middle of packs handballing it out to other running players so IMO he cannot play that role either. Finally to those who may think we should be different to just about any other side in the AFL and play 3 talls, I give you this, 20 out of 22 wins last season. Why do things differently. Also how would 3 talls have done on GF day. Even Rooy struggled that day.

Stanley will get a go but there is no reason the best home and away side needs to rush him in at this stage.