Lovett lodges notice of grievance with club

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Bernard Shakey
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11240
Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2007 11:22pm
Location: Down By The River 1989, 2003, 2009 & 2013
Has thanked: 126 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Post: # 880750Post Bernard Shakey »

MACEwasACE wrote:Solar....

You mis-understand me.

If the club believes he's guilty .... Sack him. Cause they will then anyway. If they believe he's innocent then back him and support him like they did with Milne and Montagna in 03 or 04.

As my daily job involves charging people, i'd hazzard to guess it's not an open and shut matter or Andrew would have been charged already. There appears to be areas of inconsistency which requires a more indepth investigation.

So as far as the club goes,.. Stop pussy footing around and support Andrew.. Let him train, let him play, let him bond with his team mates and then make a decision when courts (if it gets that far) have made theirs.
Do you charge people for your pearls of wisdom?

If your daily job involves charging people in a legal sense god help us all.


Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
MACEwasACE
Club Player
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu 04 Sep 2008 2:53pm

Post: # 880756Post MACEwasACE »

What's this.. A personal attack on me. I'm trying to defend Andrew.

If you bother to read what I wrote you would see that.

Degruch ... I never said the club should sack him. I was voicing an opinion on the matter because I am tired of the distraction this is causing and it has the potential to derail the season before it starts.

The right thing is to get him back invoved and ready for the season. If and it is an if the matter ever gets to court in 9-18 months time and there is a finding one way or another, the club can deal with it then.

But until then the club in my opinion , and i am sooooooo sorrry if it conflicts with some of your's; is to get Andy back on the track with the boys and lets win that damn flag.


IF It is to be it is up to me.
User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Post: # 880815Post degruch »

MACEwasACE wrote:If you bother to read what I wrote you would see that.

Degruch ... I never said the club should sack him.
Hmmm...are you sure?
MACEwasACE wrote:Time to toughen up and get on with it. Let him play or sack him.
I think letting the criminal investigation run it's course, as the club is doing, is the best approach. Otherwise, potentially you've got a rapist playing on your team (morality aside, it's not a good look for the club) or an innocent guy with no job and a broken contract.

I know what you're saying though, everyone shares the frustration that this guy should be on the park, but alternatively, he should be in jail. These things can't be rushed and must be approach delicately. Even when the police investigation is over, it will still need to be handled with kit gloves...the guy's contract may still be valid even if he's found guilty.


shmic_s
Club Player
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue 03 Feb 2009 4:25pm
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Post: # 880819Post shmic_s »

Interesting bit in an article in the age today:
A police spokeswoman yesterday confirmed that the lead investigator on the Lovett case has been on annual leave for several weeks
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/l ... -nv3a.html


User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7223
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 516 times

Post: # 880821Post meher baba »

shmic_s wrote:Interesting bit in an article in the age today:
A police spokeswoman yesterday confirmed that the lead investigator on the Lovett case has been on annual leave for several weeks
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/l ... -nv3a.html
FFS!!

Just as well AL hasn't commited any other alleged offences over the same period!!


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
suss
Club Player
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sun 22 May 2005 11:42pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 90 times

Post: # 880825Post suss »

This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not. I suppose its a better outcome than a Supreme Court action and will bring some sort of short term resolution to all of this.


User avatar
markp
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 15583
Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post: # 880835Post markp »

suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.


User avatar
Bernard Shakey
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11240
Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2007 11:22pm
Location: Down By The River 1989, 2003, 2009 & 2013
Has thanked: 126 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Post: # 880842Post Bernard Shakey »

markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
Sandy?


Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
User avatar
Solar
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8144
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 12:43pm

Post: # 880845Post Solar »

markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
I really don't understand the logic from lovett, I would have thought it's smarter to put your head down, work hard and fight the charges if you think your innocent. Unless this is about money(he is getting paid base rate, so missing out on incentives?) he is not endearing himself to anyone.

What would he really want to get out of this?


FQF
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust

2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith
suss
Club Player
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sun 22 May 2005 11:42pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 90 times

Post: # 880847Post suss »

markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
What if the AFL Grievance Tribunal orders that he should train and play with us? Assuming that they have the power to make such an order, it's a reasonable question isn't it?


User avatar
Dr Spaceman
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 14102
Joined: Thu 24 Sep 2009 11:07pm
Location: Newtown Institute of Saintology
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Post: # 880851Post Dr Spaceman »

Solar wrote:
markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
I really don't understand the logic from lovett, I would have thought it's smarter to put your head down, work hard and fight the charges if you think your innocent. Unless this is about money(he is getting paid base rate, so missing out on incentives?) he is not endearing himself to anyone.

What would he really want to get out of this?
Well IF, and it's a big IF, he really believes he did nothing wrong then I'm sure he would not be happy to just put his head down, work hard and fight the charges when it could take a year or so to come to finalisation. Regardless of anything else that would effectively end his AFL career.

So without commenting on whether or not he is guilty of anything, or whether the saints should take him back etc, IF he thinks, or knows, he's in the right he has a lot to get out of it.


User avatar
markp
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 15583
Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post: # 880853Post markp »

suss wrote:
markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
What if the AFL Grievance Tribunal orders that he should train and play with us? Assuming that they have the power to make such an order, it's a reasonable question isn't it?
Then he'd be training and playing at Sandy.


User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7223
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 516 times

Post: # 880854Post meher baba »

Solar wrote:I really don't understand the logic from lovett, I would have thought it's smarter to put your head down, work hard and fight the charges if you think your innocent. Unless this is about money(he is getting paid base rate, so missing out on incentives?) he is not endearing himself to anyone.

What would he really want to get out of this?
(a) If he really believes he's innocent, then he might think he has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion and would perhaps be trying to recover some of his reputation. He might also rather enjoy playing AFL football and wants to keep playing it.

(b) If he is concerned that he might be charged and convicted, I reckon this is still a pretty good strategy. The more he fights what the club has done, the more he will appear to the public (including potential jurors) as maintaining his innocence.

I think the really stupid thing for him to do would be to crawl off into a corner. It made sense for Wayne Carey to do this, because - while what he did was arguably immoral - it certainly wasn't illegal. And (despite him continuing to maintain publicly that he and Mrs Stevens were only "talking" in the toilet) the fact that they were caught meant that nobody was ever going to believe that he hadn't done it.

I reckon AL has a (slim) chance of coming through this. If he puts enough pressure on the Saints, and doesn't get charged, he might end up playing for another club next season (I reckon this season is a write-off).

Sadly, I assume that we will be paying for the pleasure of watching him run around in someone else's colours. Such is life.


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
stinger
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 38126
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:06pm
Location: Australia.

Post: # 880856Post stinger »

meher baba wrote:
shmic_s wrote:Interesting bit in an article in the age today:
A police spokeswoman yesterday confirmed that the lead investigator on the Lovett case has been on annual leave for several weeks
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/l ... -nv3a.html
FFS!!

Just as well AL hasn't commited any other alleged offences over the same period!!


do you have a problem with that.....???.i don't...everybody is entitled to annual leave...even coppers.....

....".......is increasingly tense dispute with St Kilda to the AFL's grievance tribunal after yesterday opting against Supreme Court action.



Lovett, who has been under investigation by Victoria Police for six weeks over an alleged sexual assault, has been indefinitely excluded from all group activity at the football club he joined last November after he was traded by Essendon.

In recent days, Lovett, 27, seriously contemplated taking the matter of his exclusion by St Kilda to the Supreme Court, which would have seriously jeopardised his career at the Saints before it even began. Instead, he has resolved to pursue the dispute through AFL procedures that were designed to dissuade players from taking any grievances to the courts"



...would have jeopardised more than his career......would have aired a bit too much for lovett's likings , i would think...of the main issue.....not a good move....


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"

However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
suss
Club Player
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sun 22 May 2005 11:42pm
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 90 times

Post: # 880866Post suss »

markp wrote:
suss wrote:
markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
What if the AFL Grievance Tribunal orders that he should train and play with us? Assuming that they have the power to make such an order, it's a reasonable question isn't it?
Then he'd be training and playing at Sandy.
I see what you're getting at but that just makes the actual finding/directive/order of the panel, that much more interesting.


User avatar
Bernard Shakey
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11240
Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2007 11:22pm
Location: Down By The River 1989, 2003, 2009 & 2013
Has thanked: 126 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Post: # 880868Post Bernard Shakey »

The last time the AFL Grievance Tribunal was used, ten years ago, it took a year to resolve the dispute.


Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
JMsainter
Club Player
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed 23 Dec 2009 10:13pm
Location: In Saintly Heavan. Where else?

Post: # 880870Post JMsainter »

I sincerely hope for Andrew's sake that it all works out for the best, because I'm afraid to think of where his life will go without a positive club environment to support him. My guess is that it would spiral into oblivion.

A very sad state of affairs.


Fired Up Again For 2010. Go Saints!!!

Kepp dreaming those impossible dreams. Spend every minute of everyday striving to reach your dreams.
Moods
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4944
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
Has thanked: 343 times
Been thanked: 492 times

Post: # 880874Post Moods »

MACEwasACE wrote:Solar....

You mis-understand me.

If the club believes he's guilty .... Sack him. Cause they will then anyway. If they believe he's innocent then back him and support him like they did with Milne and Montagna in 03 or 04.

As my daily job involves charging people, i'd hazzard to guess it's not an open and shut matter or Andrew would have been charged already. There appears to be areas of inconsistency which requires a more indepth investigation.

So as far as the club goes,.. Stop pussy footing around and support Andrew.. Let him train, let him play, let him bond with his team mates and then make a decision when courts (if it gets that far) have made theirs.
Are you a police officer MACEwasACE? Or do you work with some other authority, ie RSPCA, By laws at a local council etc?

Just curious.


shmic_s
Club Player
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue 03 Feb 2009 4:25pm
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Post: # 880876Post shmic_s »

JMsainter wrote:I sincerely hope for Andrew's sake that it all works out for the best, because I'm afraid to think of where his life will go without a positive club environment to support him. My guess is that it would spiral into oblivion.

A very sad state of affairs.
Yes my thoughts too. Once this has been through courts, I hope that both, the woman involved and Andrew Lovett, can continue to live rewarding lives. I'm sure the club will be offering outside support to either party if its required.


User avatar
Con Gorozidis
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23532
Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Post: # 880877Post Con Gorozidis »

Solar wrote:
markp wrote:
suss wrote:This gets interesting. If Jack Rush and his panel rules that Lovett must train and must play irrespective of the investigation then it will happen, whether the club or AFL likes it or not.
Where do you think he'd be training and playing?... if the club has decided, it would not be in Saints colours, that's for sure.
I really don't understand the logic from lovett, I would have thought it's smarter to put your head down, work hard and fight the charges if you think your innocent. Unless this is about money(he is getting paid base rate, so missing out on incentives?) he is not endearing himself to anyone.

What would he really want to get out of this?
disagree. he might face serious charges and even jail. so his lawyers are going to have work hard to keep him out of jail - and that means creating an element of doubt - first step of that is how would an innocent man act?
well an innocent man would lodge a grievance with the afl about unfair treatement from their employee. not just being passive and accepting your punishment. If AL just passivley accepts his punishment from the saints - that is tacit admission of guilt - and in that will look very very bad ifa real court case comes along.

think of it from AL's lawyers perspective - they have one job - create enough doubt to keep him from jail.

first step of creating doubt - stop acting guilty and start acting innocent.

so the whole grievance thing makes perfect sense.


User avatar
stinger
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 38126
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:06pm
Location: Australia.

Post: # 880881Post stinger »

JMsainter wrote:I sincerely hope for Andrew's sake that it all works out for the best, because I'm afraid to think of where his life will go without a positive club environment to support him. My guess is that it would spiral into oblivion.

A very sad state of affairs.
are you a clairvoyant, fortune teller or do you just read tea leaves...???

...and you called me a racist ffs.... :roll: :roll: :roll:


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"

However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Moods
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4944
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
Has thanked: 343 times
Been thanked: 492 times

Post: # 880906Post Moods »

stinger wrote:
JMsainter wrote:I sincerely hope for Andrew's sake that it all works out for the best, because I'm afraid to think of where his life will go without a positive club environment to support him. My guess is that it would spiral into oblivion.

A very sad state of affairs.
are you a clairvoyant, fortune teller or do you just read tea leaves...???

...and you called me a racist ffs.... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Interesting point raised by Stinger. Unless ppl on here know AL personally why would they assume that his life will fall apart without a footy club environment? His cousin, for instance, seems like a very well respected citizen of the aboriginal community - are we assuming that b/c AL is aboriginal that he must need football and that he has no ther skills?

I'm not sure that his life was travelling all that smoothly with a footy club environment supporting him. Depending on the person, a footy club environment can be the worst things for some blokes - look no further than Matthew Stokes who has been told to get a 'real' job for a few months. Many of them live in a bubble and are protected beyond belief. THis can assist them or be to their detriment.


JMsainter
Club Player
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed 23 Dec 2009 10:13pm
Location: In Saintly Heavan. Where else?

Post: # 880909Post JMsainter »

stinger wrote:
JMsainter wrote:I sincerely hope for Andrew's sake that it all works out for the best, because I'm afraid to think of where his life will go without a positive club environment to support him. My guess is that it would spiral into oblivion.

A very sad state of affairs.
are you a clairvoyant, fortune teller or do you just read tea leaves...???

...and you called me a racist ffs.... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Are you stalking my posts old chum? It seems that you are determined to take shots at me. Is there something racist about my comments? I don't think so. Now stop destroying threads because of your infantile sense of revenge.


Fired Up Again For 2010. Go Saints!!!

Kepp dreaming those impossible dreams. Spend every minute of everyday striving to reach your dreams.
User avatar
stinger
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 38126
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:06pm
Location: Australia.

Post: # 880910Post stinger »

Moods wrote:
stinger wrote:
JMsainter wrote:I sincerely hope for Andrew's sake that it all works out for the best, because I'm afraid to think of where his life will go without a positive club environment to support him. My guess is that it would spiral into oblivion.

A very sad state of affairs.
are you a clairvoyant, fortune teller or do you just read tea leaves...???

...and you called me a racist ffs.... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Interesting point raised by Stinger. Unless ppl on here know AL personally why would they assume that his life will fall apart without a footy club environment? His cousin, for instance, seems like a very well respected citizen of the aboriginal community - are we assuming that b/c AL is aboriginal that he must need football and that he has no ther skills?

I'm not sure that his life was travelling all that smoothly with a footy club environment supporting him. Depending on the person, a footy club environment can be the worst things for some blokes - look no further than Matthew Stokes who has been told to get a 'real' job for a few months. Many of them live in a bubble and are protected beyond belief. THis can assist them or be to their detriment.

it was a pure deadset racist comment...lovett was being stereotyped.....and you picked it in one......


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"

However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
User avatar
bigred
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11463
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 7:39am
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 609 times

Post: # 880911Post bigred »

Half of this thread has been loosely veiled racist claptrap.


"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
Post Reply