Good run with injury in '09 no accident

[rodgerfox]

Is everyone in agreeance that injuries are what cost us a flag under GT?

No. We were never in a position to win a flag under GT.

What you have to do RodgerFox, is to make a Grand Final. then you have a chance to win a flag.

You seem not to understand this simple concept.

I'll take you through it. GT was coach in 2004 and 2005 when we made the PF. He was responsible for the management and coaching of the team. He must take responsibility for not getting the Saints to a position to where they could challenge for a flag, i.e. a grand Final.

RL was coach in 2008 and 2009 where we reached a PF. He was responsible for the management and coaching of the team. In 2009 we reached the Grand Final. This means we were in a position to challenge for a flag. RL must take responsibility for not winning the flag.

It is two seperate and diverse arguments. You can argue that injuries contributed to the Saints not getting into a GF. You can NEVER argue that injuries cost us a flag under Thomas because we never were in the Grand Final under Thomas.

Conversly, we can argue poor kicking, not using Ball, poor tactics etc cost us the flag in 2009 because RL, as responsible coach and manager got his team to the Grand Final.

So it is clear. We never had a chance to win a flag under Grant Thomas because simply we never made a Grand Final.

We DID have a chance to win a flag under Ross Lyon because we DID make a Grand Final.

Really, there is no grey on this issue. It is stark and clear.

No deflections, semantics, smokescreens, assumptions, or inferences can change that simple overriding fact.

Live with it.

So right now, in the present, on Jan 28th, not one single AFL team has a chance of winning the 2010 flag?

Makes you wonder why anyone bothers turning up.


I look at it very differently. Every club has a chance to win the flag until it's impossible to do so (ie. you are no longer in the competition).

Whereas what you are saying, is that no one has a chance for the flag until you make the Grand Final.

We could take that a step further and say that Ross Lyon never gave us a chance at a flag because we weren't in front in the Grand Final with 1 second to go.

It's the same thing, and equally as silly.


Every team has a chance to win the flag. This is why it's called a 'competition'. Because all clubs are competing for the same prize. All clubs have a chance to win it.

[joffaboy]

So right now, in the present, on Jan 28th, not one single AFL team has a chance of winning the 2010 flag?

Makes you wonder why anyone bothers turning up.

Please try not to confuse yourself with past, present and future.

Two teams will make the Grand Final in 2010. AT THAT TIME those two will be the only team to have a chance.

When you discuss Grant Thomas you are talking about the past. in 2004 and 2005 Grant Thomas was coach and failed to get us a shot at the flag because he didn't get the team past the PF.

In 2009 Ross Lyon did have a shot at the flag because he made the Grand Final.

You seem to struggle with this concept

Has nothing to do with the coming season.

Do you understand the concept of only winning a flag by participating in a Grand Final under current AFL rules?

[matrix]

if someone was so passionate about our club...youd think they would chip in and be part of the sponsorship of some youth huh.

youd think

gonna jump on board with the player sponsorships rodge?

[rodgerfox]

So right now, in the present, on Jan 28th, not one single AFL team has a chance of winning the 2010 flag?

Makes you wonder why anyone bothers turning up.

Please try not to confuse yourself with past, present and future.

Two teams will make the Grand Final in 2010. AT THAT TIME those two will be the only team to have a chance.

When you discuss Grant Thomas you are talking about the past. in 2004 and 2005 Grant Thomas was coach and failed to get us a shot at the flag because he didn't get the team past the PF.

In 2009 Ross Lyon did have a shot at the flag because he made the Grand Final.

You seem to struggle with this concept

Has nothing to do with the coming season.

Do you understand the concept of only winning a flag by participating in a Grand Final under current AFL rules?

So Ross Lyon never gave us a chance at the flag because we weren't in front with 1 second to go in the GF?

Same concept.

[rodgerfox]

if someone was so passionate about our club...youd think they would chip in and be part of the sponsorship of some youth huh.

youd think

gonna jump on board with the player sponsorships rodge?

I do sponsor youth. A couple in Africa and in South America.


Just a thing that some call priorities.

[Mr Magic]

Why isn't he a .LIAR RF?

He has my sympathy to be honest.

That's enough to probably make me violently ill and pass a stool.

[matrix]

thats nice
and what about the afl team you support?

[rodgerfox]

Do you understand the concept of only winning a flag by participating in a Grand Final under current AFL rules?

Do you understand that to have a chance of winning a flag, you need to be in front on the scoreboard when the siren goes.

So being in the GF doesn't give you a chance of winning the flag by your logic - it just gives more chance than 14 other teams.

You must be in front with 1 second to go to have a chance of winning it.


See how this logic doesn't work?

[joffaboy]

I look at it very differently. Every club has a chance to win the flag until it's impossible to do so (ie. you are no longer in the competition).

Really what a foolish premis. You compete in seasons. Seasons end there is a Grand Final. You compete to get into the grand Final.

Please stop confusing yourself.

Whereas what you are saying, is that no one has a chance for the flag until you make the Grand Final.

In each given season. We were discussing points in time in the past. You asked if everyone was in agreeance that injuries cost the Saints a flag under Grant Thomas.

The particular season where we made a PF 2004 and 2005, we ultimately had no chance of winning a flag because we did not make a Grand Final.

We could take that a step further and say that Ross Lyon never gave us a chance at a flag because we weren't in front in the Grand Final with 1 second to go.


It's the same thing, and equally as silly.

No it isn't, it is hypothetical. Fact is that in 2004 and 2005 when we had a plethora odf injuries, the Saints did not even have a change to win a flag because they never made a Grand Final.

Ross Lyon was not coaching a team that was ahead in a Grand Final with one second to go. Silly hypothetical deflection.

It has noting to do with time frams or constraints. To win a flag you have to hav the opportunity. The only way get that opportunity is to make a Grand Final.

Every team has a chance to win the flag. This is why it's called a 'competition'. Because all clubs are competing for the same prize. All clubs have a chance to win it.

At the beginning of each individual and particular season all 16 teams are on an equal footing, by the end of August 8 teams have no chance to win the flag of that season, by the end of September only two teams have a chance to win the flag.

Grant Thomas never got us to the last Saturday in Spetember, so it ccan NEVER be stated that injuries cost us a flag under him.

Joffaboy, with all due respect, you should stay out of football matters.

RodgerFox, this is just one of your dismissive tactics when you have been cornered. To insult and deride does not detract from the fact that Grant Thomas never gave us a chance at a flag because he couldn't get us to a Grand Final.

Ross Lyon got us to a Grand Final so he did give us an opportunity to win a flag.

It is not my fault, you cannot understand simple concepts, and are being deliberately obtuse because you feel cornered.

You premis of the above post is ludicrious.

Nice to have some fun with you though. I enjoy a troll who at least puts in a bit of thought.

Come back to me when you have a credible argument, you struggled with this one

[joffaboy]

So right now, in the present, on Jan 28th, not one single AFL team has a chance of winning the 2010 flag?

Makes you wonder why anyone bothers turning up.

Please try not to confuse yourself with past, present and future.

Two teams will make the Grand Final in 2010. AT THAT TIME those two will be the only team to have a chance.

When you discuss Grant Thomas you are talking about the past. in 2004 and 2005 Grant Thomas was coach and failed to get us a shot at the flag because he didn't get the team past the PF.

In 2009 Ross Lyon did have a shot at the flag because he made the Grand Final.

You seem to struggle with this concept

Has nothing to do with the coming season.

Do you understand the concept of only winning a flag by participating in a Grand Final under current AFL rules?

So Ross Lyon never gave us a chance at the flag because we weren't in front with 1 second to go in the GF?

Same concept.

No it isn't.

What an incrediblty facile and banal deflection RF.

Really mate C-, must try harder.

[joffaboy]

So being in the GF doesn't give you a chance of winning the flag by your logic - it just gives more chance than 14 other teams.

How can you have no chance but more of a chance than 14 other teams?

All in the one sentance.

RF you are struggling

[joffaboy]

if someone was so passionate about our club...youd think they would chip in and be part of the sponsorship of some youth huh.

youd think

gonna jump on board with the player sponsorships rodge?

I do sponsor youth. A couple in Africa and in South America.


Just a thing that some call priorities.

I do both RF. I sponsor Saints players which only costs $60, and I have sponsored a Mexican girl and since 1998.

[Milton66]

if someone was so passionate about our club...youd think they would chip in and be part of the sponsorship of some youth huh.

youd think

gonna jump on board with the player sponsorships rodge?

I do sponsor youth. A couple in Africa and in South America.


Just a thing that some call priorities.

I do both RF. I sponsor Saints players which only costs $60, and I have sponsored a Mexican girl and since 1998.

Illegal immigrants called Juanita who cook, clean and sleep in your garage don't count as "sponsoring". Although it probably makes for a good tax deduction.

[rodgerfox]

How can you have no chance but more of a chance than 14 other teams?

All in the one sentance.

RF you are struggling

I don't know - which is why I find your logic...well...illogical.


What you should have said, is that Lyon gave us a better chance than Thomas, because we played in a GF.

To say that Thomas never gave us a chance because we never played in a GF, is exact;y the same as saying that Lyon didn't give us a chance because we weren't in front when the siren went.

In both situations, we had no chance of winning the flag. None. Not one single hope. A complete impossibility of winning a flag - by your logic.

Which of course, is technically correct.


But being technically correct, you cannot then say that Lyon gave a us a chance - because based on your logic we had no chance.


This is why I feel you should stay out of football matters. You are looking at this from the eyes of an accountant. Black or white.

No club, except Geelong had a chance of winning the flag last year by your logic.
They were the only team, by AFL rules that had a chance.


If football was viewed this way, the footy media wouldn't exist. Forums wouldn't exist, people wouldn't buy memberships and the 'competition' would die.

When you buy a tatts ticket, at what point do you have a chance? I'd say the moment you purchase the ticket.

By your logic, unless you have 5 numbers and the 6th number is milli-seconds from being drawn, you were never a chance of winning.

And of course, technically this is correct. The same goes for our chances in the GF last year.

[rodgerfox]

Same concept.

No it isn't.

What an incrediblty facile and banal deflection RF.

Really mate C-, must try harder.

I'd actually like you to answer that question rather than dodge it, because it's completely valid.

And will put your logic in perspective.

[asiu]

its like a bushfire over here

what happened to

and they all lived happily ever after.

i'm not even awake yet ....slow down

[matrix]

let me finish the first days coffee first....

[joffaboy]

What you should have said, is that Lyon gave us a better chance than Thomas, because we played in a GF.

You are a .LIAR.

I never said Thomas gave us a change at all because he didn't make a Grand Final.

The only way you can win a Flag is to make the Grand Final.

really it is simple.

Anyway stop lying and stop being a hypocrite.

[Milton66]

let me finish the first days coffee first....

I'm already into my 3rd double shot... another wasted day coming up.

[joffaboy]

In both situations, we had no chance of winning the flag. None. Not one single hope. A complete impossibility of winning a flag - by your logic.

LIAR.

We had a chance to win a flag because we made the Grand Final in 2009. We didn't in 2004 and 2005 because we did not make the grand Final.

Which of course, is technically correct.

No you are wrong and illogical.

But being technically correct, you cannot then say that Lyon gave a us a chance - because based on your logic we had no chance.

Straw Man.

LIAR.

This is why I feel you should stay out of football matters. You are looking at this from the eyes of an accountant. Black or white.

Your argument is wrong and illogical and based on a Straw Man.

The only way you can win a flag is by making the Grand Final i.e. by winnin the PF.

So it is a simple fact that because Thoams' teams never won a PF he they never had a chance of winning a flag.

Really you make things up, attribute them to me, because you cant understand simple concepts and then build straw men.

You lied when you stated I said thomas had a chance to win a flag. You lied when you skewed my logic and used an illogical hypothetical about Lyon being in front with a second to go.

It is a really simple concept that you are deliberately being obtuse about.

So stop lying and face the facts.

Really your are struggling quite badly RF.

No club, except Geelong had a chance of winning the flag last year by your logic.

That, once more is a lie. St.Kilda had a chance because St.Kilda made the Grand Final.

Really this extremely simple concept has you flummoxed and bewildered hasn't it?

They were the only team, by AFL rules that had a chance.

What a stupid, and incredible foolish thing to post.

To win a flag you have to participate in a Grand Final. A St.kilda team under Ross Lyon did so, none under Thomas did so. Therefore, quite simply, the Thomas coached St.kilda had no opportunity to win a flag.

If football was viewed this way, the footy media wouldn't exist. Forums wouldn't exist, people wouldn't buy memberships and the 'competition' would die.

That right. You view on this is completely skewed and completely incorrect, and quite ludicrious. You seem to delight in being obtuse and illogical.

Really, if you cant understand simple concepts as a Grand Final, I suggest, respectively, that you don try to participate in these conversations, you only make a fool of yourself.

I know that this is sport to you. It is to me as well. I find all this quite fun, while I am waiting for a process to complete on my computer.

Keep going RF, I find you amusing.

When you buy a tatts ticket, at what point do you have a chance? I'd say the moment you purchase the ticket.

Totally different concept.

By your logic, unless you have 5 numbers and the 6th number is milli-seconds from being drawn, you were never a chance of winning.

Again you lie and say it is my logic. What a stupid and illogical premis

And of course, technically this is correct. The same goes for our chances in the GF last year.

To have a chance at the flag, you have to play in a Grand Final. What were our chances in the 2004 and the 2005 Grand Final when they were played?

[asiu]

to much coffee upsets my system ... takes me away from the laptop

should i have a magic cigarette , or is it too early ?

[matrix]

depends on your definition of early and what time you went to bed...
and what you have to do chore wise for the remainder of the day

[asiu]

crashed early actually

had a big day yesterday ... shaving some hard to get to areas

stress makes you tired i've discovered


i could vacuum

[Milton66]

to much coffee upsets my system ... takes me away from the laptop

should i have a magic cigarette , or is it too early ?

espreso machine and PC... the 2 most heavily used appliances in my household.

Dishwasher and washing machine a distant 3rd.

[mastersaint]

Im with you Matrix.....
What chores do you HAVE TO DO...... TODAY



Back at work or I'd be thinking the same thing...ugh

The life some people have.................................