Verdict? Did it really matter?

[Ghost Like]

I know I'm bored this pre-season & tired of the Lovett threads, I just can't wait for Season 2010 to start, whether we hit the ground running like last year, surpassing all expectations or copping the ineveitable cr@p from opposition supporters during games re the GF, our recruiting...I can only say Bring it on!!!

I was just musing (& this may have been covered in many post GF threads) what people's verdict was in terms of:

A) Our unbeaten run & the doomsayers saying we need to drop a game

B) The resting of players for the Hawks game in Tassie & the 'flirting with form' scenario

Personally my thoughts are, we never need to drop a game...ever. If we're good enough to win a game, we win it and we move on to the next match. It's a load of rubbish that theory, one used & supported by pessimistic gamblers and should not have a place with professional sportsmen.

I thought the resting of players at that stage was prudent, if anything it may have been a couple of weeks too late. I don't believe it had an adverse effect on our players, if anything the likes of Farren Ray may have struggled for not having that break (rest). Possibly stagger the resting of groups of players if possible to give us our best chance in every match and lessening the effectwhen they return from that rest.

My belief is we strive to win every game we can whilst managing our players as best we can. I have no dramas with how last season transpired, only some issues with how we executed on GF day, in front of goal & in the coaches box.

I love what Ross Lyon is doing & I love 'Saints Footy'.

BRING IT ON!!!

[degruch]

Never needed to drop a game, that was just media hype and the likes of Blues and Essendon supporters willing us to fail...as I said at the time, it doesn't guarantee us a premiership. Shame I was right.

I hope we get a straight set this year, although opposition familiarity with our style of play may make that harder to achieve this time around...that's not to say some of our new inclusions may shake the team structure up and change it again (I remember all the crap predictions our midfield being down for 2009 with Harvey gone...ha!).

Records I'd like to break this season include most games won in a row, and longest streak over an opposition club (I think we are level with the record at 12 wins over the Blues). Bring it on!

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Well said guys.
I'm not an expert in sports psychology or sports training and conditioning, nor have I ever been an elite athlete.
So it's very hard to judge.
If you look back to the 1970s NM with Barass seemed to engineer a mid-season slump every year, which worked for them. But that was a different world. Players weren't fully professional and they didn't start training until February!

Losing to the B&mbers in '09 hurt, but I consoled myself with the question "What would you rather have...a win tonight or a Premiership in six weeks' time?". We got neither, which really s%cked.

[bozza1980]

The need to drop a game theory is bunkum.

Sheedy and the Essendon mob claim the loss in 2000 helped them but what else are they going to say??

I can understand how a losing streak can effect a club each week, but if a club is professional a winning streak can only be positive.

At the end of the day it's all talk, regardless of how good or otherwise you've been all year the season comes down to 2 weeks knock out games if you are good enough to get there. Whether you are 23-0 or 14-8 you have the same chance of winning the flag.

[StSteven]

I don't agree. When you lose a game (not drop one - ie meaning intentionally losing) you focus more on what you have to do to be a winner and aim to improve. Everyone suggested the Ctas won the GF because they were hungry and hurting after losing last year (ie they dropped a game).

Winning H&A is just a means to the finals. I believe we got caught up in the hype of winning straight sets and lost focus on the main game ie GF.

The coaching team at Geelong are to be admired for their approach to last year. Had us and the media all fooled into thinking they were not up to previous standard. They did not lsten to the media.

We need to assert our authority, clinch a top two spot and then get players ripe for finals.

Let's not get excited again about H&A wins and the Nab Cup. If they happen great. We certainly do not want to "drop" a game but losing one to a good or better side will help our campaign.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

True, but winning H&A games is a means to an end.
It's obvious you have to finish top 4 to win the Flag in the modern system.
I reckon we really need to finish top 2, especially if there's interstate teams up (remember that first final in Brisbane in '04?).
So you need to win a huge no. of games to ensure that...17 or 18 at least in a 'normal' year.

[degruch]

I believe we got caught up in the hype of winning straight sets and lost focus on the main game ie GF.

The H&A loss and GF were over a month apart though, also we were pretty focused in the GF, had the Cats in every stat apart from scoring shot conversion...I guess we can only put it down to nerves.

Best quote in regard to the whole straight sets thing was Richo, when asked how he'd feel going into the finals having won every game in the H&A season (expecting him to say buggered) he replied "Pretty confident".

But I know what you're saying SS, and who really knows if it made any difference negative or positive...this season is sure to be a different scenario again.

[bozza1980]

I don't agree. When you lose a game (not drop one - ie meaning intentionally losing) you focus more on what you have to do to be a winner and aim to improve. Everyone suggested the Ctas won the GF because they were hungry and hurting after losing last year (ie they dropped a game).

I think the Cats won the Grand Final because their opponent kicked themselves out of it. The Cats loss the year before had no bearing on us not taking our chances.

Winning H&A is just a means to the finals. I believe we got caught up in the hype of winning straight sets and lost focus on the main game ie GF.

You are right H&A is all about setting yourself up for the finals, I think the problem we had was the opposite to what you are suggesting. If anything our eyes were on the prize for too long.

The coaching team at Geelong are to be admired for their approach to last year. Had us and the media all fooled into thinking they were not up to previous standard. They did not lsten to the media.

The Cats were fantastic as they have been for the last 3 years.

However the Grand Final was a toss of a coin affair where one team took their opportunites and the other didn't. I think to suggest that some master plan was at play here is to talk things up a little bit.

That said, history does that, if buts maybes don't really matter, but in my mind a team that has scored 7 less times than their opponent at 3/4 time of the GF and finds themselves only 7 points down owes a lot more to luck than good management the fact they are still alive in the flag race.

We need to assert our authority, clinch a top two spot and then get players ripe for finals.

Let's not get excited again about H&A wins and the Nab Cup. If they happen great. We certainly do not want to "drop" a game but losing one to a good or better side will help our campaign.

You are right NAB Cup and H&A wins are just means to an end, that big silver cup they give out on Grand Final day.

Here's hoping that we actually get our hands on it this year.

[vacuous space]

I'm surprised we didn't rest more players more often in the leadup to finals. We had a top-2 spot locked up after round 17. We could have treated the last few weeks like the NAB cup. Once Roo missed the shot after the siren in R20, we had two wins and considerable percentage between us and Geelong. Our R22 game against Melbourne was completely meaningless.

If we rest players, we're flirting with form. If we don't, we're flirting with injury. My personal preference would be to make sure we take our best-22 into finals, but I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Anyone who wins the last game of the year is right and everyone else is wrong.

[saintnick12]

Not only did we lose the two games, but we struggled in a couple of others around that time, ie against Sydney, Melbourne, and nearly lost the prelim when we were expected to win easily as we had in our two previous games with them earlier in the year. The wheels were certainly starting to fall off...I was just hoping that we could hold it together for one more game, and we very nearly did. But realistically it had been about six weeks (not including the Hawthorn game in tassie where all the stars were rested), since we'd played a dominant 4qtr Saints Footy game. We were a couple of goals down in every game in the last 6 too, where as earlier in the year we were putting teams away early.

So i don't think the one loss (or two as it turned out) was the issue, its more than we lost our way a bit in general. Geelong in 2007 started badly so didnt have the pressure of the big unbeaten run, then won every game until they lost by a kick in the second last round, before going on to win the flag. Essendon's 2000 year they dropped the game but I don't think they had the same general form drop as we did. I remember sitting at some of those last few games this year and wondering what on earth was going on. What happened to our saints footy.

[Con Gorozidis]

disagree. its not the dropping of the game for dropping a games sake. clearly thats not the point.

the point is u need to make sure players are as fresh as possible for the "September season". If that means resting some players through july/august and AS a consequence of that you lose a game - then its a good thing. not just losing a game for the sake of it for some nebulous psychological reason.

i maintain this. last time i looked no cups were handed out in august - and if u look at lions teams and geelong last year and the dorks - winning the minor premiership is no pre-cursor to GF success - in fact the opopsite is closer. September season is what matters - so u need to plan for september - that may or may not have the side effect of losing a couple in july/august.

did geelong flirt with form by resting guys in july? probably. but they had em on the park i septyember when they needed them which is better than flying in july and having guys in the stands in september...

[bozza1980]

I'm surprised we didn't rest more players more often in the leadup to finals. We had a top-2 spot locked up after round 17. We could have treated the last few weeks like the NAB cup. Once Roo missed the shot after the siren in R20, we had two wins and considerable percentage between us and Geelong. Our R22 game against Melbourne was completely meaningless.

If we rest players, we're flirting with form. If we don't, we're flirting with injury. My personal preference would be to make sure we take our best-22 into finals, but I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Anyone who wins the last game of the year is right and everyone else is wrong.

I don't agree with blindly resting players.

However with positions sealed it is a chance to treat injuries differently to when you are jostling for spots. I.e if in doubt they don't play, no late fitness tests as their is no need to risk the injury.

I think the mass resting of players this year unsettled the group and it showed in Rds20-22. Maybe this helped in the finals maybe it didn't I'm not qualified to say.

[Teflon]

The coaching team at Geelong are to be admired for their approach to last year. Had us and the media all fooled into thinking they were not up to previous standard. They did not lsten to the media.

Dont think the Cats had anyone fooled and had some "master plan" - they simply had what they hadnt had for the previous few seasons......some injury troubles and dropped off accordingly.

No one believed they werent at their previous standard when they also went into RD 14 undefeated...

Facts are we had the Cats on toast. We HAD the opportunity to exert so much scoreboard pressure at half time with a 50 - 32 fwd 50 domination and we blew it.

I do not believe to this day that had we gone 5-6 goals up on Cats that we wouldve lost that game - sure theyd have come back.....and spent considerable petrol tickets doing it. Lyons game plan can be restrictive to the point where we now shut up shop better than anyone.....Cats wouldve been stuffed had we taken our chances.

What must also not be forgotten is that we did change our style in that last qtr and teh coach admitted it was his fault - bombing long in the hope of a Riewoldt miracle was dumb footy and played into Cats hands........hard to be overly critical but this was Lyons stuff up. Had we just asked Roo to continue his leading game Ive no doubt he'd have jagged one sooner or later or at least created space and opportunity for others while spreading the Cats defenders (which they hate). We didnt - its all history. Geelong look geniuses and we look stupid.

Frkn still shytes me no end.

[saint66au]

The coaching team at Geelong are to be admired for their approach to last year. Had us and the media all fooled into thinking they were not up to previous standard. They did not lsten to the media.

Dont think the Cats had anyone fooled and had some "master plan" - they simply had what they hadnt had for the previous few seasons......some injury troubles and dropped off accordingly.

No one believed they werent at their previous standard when they also went into RD 14 undefeated...

Facts are we had the Cats on toast. We HAD the opportunity to exert so much scoreboard pressure at half time with a 50 - 32 fwd 50 domination and we blew it.

I do not believe to this day that had we gone 5-6 goals up on Cats that we wouldve lost that game - sure theyd have come back.....and spent considerable petrol tickets doing it. Lyons game plan can be restrictive to the point where we now shut up shop better than anyone.....Cats wouldve been stuffed had we taken our chances.

What must also not be forgotten is that we did change our style in that last qtr and teh coach admitted it was his fault - bombing long in the hope of a Riewoldt miracle was dumb footy and played into Cats hands........hard to be overly critical but this was Lyons stuff up. Had we just asked Roo to continue his leading game Ive no doubt he'd have jagged one sooner or later or at least created space and opportunity for others while spreading the Cats defenders (which they hate). We didnt - its all history. Geelong look geniuses and we look stupid.

Frkn still shytes me no end.

Completely agree with all of this..the only point I'll make is that perhaps Roo's torn adductor restricted his ability to lead late in the game? RL being the type of guy that he is I can well imagine him blaming himself for a coaching blue rather than blaming Roo's injury for the last quarter tactics

[plugger66]

I still think that game when we rested all those players had a huge impact for the rest of the season. We never did play our best footy after that and even though we probably should have won the GF I believe our footy early in the year would have won the GF. Having said that I couldnt give a stuff about win during the year apart from getting enough to guarantee a double chance and a home final.

[degruch]

I still think that game when we rested all those players had a huge impact for the rest of the season...

I thought we could have kept that team for the next week (Essendon), and most of it for the week after that (North) before reintroducing players, but it was very late to be resting anyone really.

[PJ]

Facts are we had the Cats on toast. We HAD the opportunity to exert so much scoreboard pressure at half time with a 50 - 32 fwd 50 domination and we blew it.

Aint that the truth

Fact - St.Kilda lost the GF, Geelong did not win it.

Most writers and coaches are quoted as saying Geelong and St.Kilda were clearly the best 2 teams - load of crap, St.Kilda had everyone's number in 2009 but "blew it" on the big day - Unfinished Business - 2010.

[asiu]

yea , didn't take what was ours ... fookme





i'm not pissed off

[plugger66]

Facts are we had the Cats on toast. We HAD the opportunity to exert so much scoreboard pressure at half time with a 50 - 32 fwd 50 domination and we blew it.

Aint that the truth

Fact - St.Kilda lost the GF, Geelong did not win it.

Most writers and coaches are quoted as saying Geelong and St.Kilda were clearly the best 2 teams - load of crap, St.Kilda had everyone's number in 2009 but "blew it" on the big day - Unfinished Business - 2010.

Fact
2009 Premiers Geelong

[asiu]

i like the idea of resting players

with regards to 'o9 , i think we were too late in starting

(bomber trusted his experience /intuitiveness ... rested and repaired , didnt panic , just got the side there on granny day ... anything could then happen )

long term ,..... i figure with the increasing tempo , physically and mentally , and the go to your death approach to getting the pill of the modern way , 'in tune' players ready to step up , game by game , will be needed


its either ramp up the seconds comp to keep the 'other players' in tune or create the mass of available 'other players' within the maingroup

expressed basically ... i'd divide the playing group into its natural three ... forwards , middle , backs

three core players in each group around which 6 others rotate game by game ... (with the best of those 6 resting core group members as needed)

(the +4 [plus their 'support group'] rotate through the middle , obviously )

[PJ]

Fact
2009 Premiers Geelong

Reading the result is does not equate to understanding the journey - fact

[plugger66]

Fact
2009 Premiers Geelong

Reading the result is does not equate to understanding the journey - fact

I understand the journey and yes we could of and probably could have won but there is one simple fact.

2009 Premiers Geelong

[PJ]

Yes the result is important but do you sit around nervously waiting for the end instead of enjoying being in the minute. If Saintsational was based on a series of results this would be one boring place to log on to.

[Zed]

We peaked mid season.

That win against the Cats would equal any minor round game ever played. We started to stagger late season .. beaten by the bombers and should have been beaten by Demons if they were fair dinkum. We recovered well in the finals, however if the Bulldogs had kicked straight in the PF they would have made it through. Conversely, if we had kicked straight in the GF, we would have had another flag.

One could argue Geelong also peaked mid season - but they just took their chances on the big day.

2010 will be interesting . Cats will be around the mark again - and I fully expect we will be up there. I'm also expecting the HAwks to bounce back to the top level. Expect Collingwood, the bulldogs and the Crows to be about the mark as well.

Very tough season. Vital we finish top 4.

[bobmurray]

We were never really the same team after the Essendon loss,i don't know whether we'd lost form or whether other teams had worked us out and were employing strategies against us that made "Saints Footy" not as effective or
whether, in fact,other teams were playing their own brand of "Saints Footy"
and we also struggled to deal with it....

It's going to be an interesting year,i don't think we'll dominate like last year
but i'm hoping we are successful....