He is gone...rumour

[evertonfc]

Not interested in judging Lovett until we know all the facts.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Car*line W%lson (and Mick Sh&thouse) have two headlines already written:

1. (If we get rid of AL)
Saints hang L*vett out to dry...ignoring player's welfare sends wrong message.

2. (If we keep AL)
Saints retain AL......ignoring victim's welfare sends wrong message.

[Milan Faletic]

lols.

The guy is obviously a complete and total half wit.

better off without him.

Dont let the door hit you on the way out...

Off the topic, but your avatar pic is hypnotic

[saintpeter]

Innocent until proven guilty. This rule of law applies to all citizens of this great and fair country. If he were sacked for this, still alleged incident and subsequently found innocent in a court of law, the club could be sued for many millions. Who knows what actually happened, unless any members of ti forum were actually present.

Best regards for the new year but please think carefully before typing so much defamatory nonsense.

Peter

[SydneySainter]

Essendon are laughing their arses off over this.

Offloaded this idiot to us for #16, and the clown is so uinhinged that he wont even play a game with us.

Ross Lyon has completely stuffed up.

Completely.

It wasn't a "Stuff UP" at the time, it was a "GAMBLE". I'm pretty sure that there would have been quite a few in the heirachy of the club who contributed to the decision to gamble on him.

If a decision has in fact been made on his future (and I'm convinced it was made on Christmas Eve) we need to be mindful that it was/is NOT football related meaning the "GAMBLE" has gone sour through NO FAULT of anyone a the club !!

well whatever. we spent/lost pick 16 AND Luke Ball for Zilch during trade week!

thats crap management/trading/gambling/foresight. call it what u will. i know hindsight is a wonderful thing but its a piss poor result no matter how u spin/dice/cut it.

If pick 30 and Goldsack was still too much to ask in return for Ball as far as Collingwood was concerned, what could the club have done? Beg him to stay? Throw money at him? Promise him more game time then they believed he could be allocated? Lyon's post grand final statement was perfectly clear and Ball wanted out. Should they have started making special exceptions just to keep him? It's not a boy's club.

There were plenty on here who went from supporting the club's 'don't try and screw us' statement to 'why didn't we just cut our losses and take Collingwood's offer?', but I would love to know how many would have rated getting pick 30 and Wellingham or at best pick 25 once the dust had settled. It was hardly an offer the club couldn't refuse. I believe the majority would still say that it was a c**k-up, because we got chicken feed in return for a previous All-Australian, B&F winner and club captain.

The club clearly didn't rate nor want Wellingham and unless he absolutely sizzled in the VFL, he would just have been a list clogger. So really, it was just pick 30. As for the possibility of pick 25, if the Bulldogs say that wasn't good enough to get Everitt, then how is that fair compensation for Ball? If the Pies rate Ball good enough to offer him one million dollars for the first two years of his contract, then trade what he's worth.

For those who say that the Saint's were being greedy because they obviously didn't rate Ball, absolute rubbish. They had a new three year deal on the table since mid-season and yes, he was dropped, but not rating him would be dropping back to the VFL and letting him rot. Lyon knew Ball wasn't delivering close to what he was capable of and frankly, had every right to insist that he work on his form and earn his spot back. He still played all three finals. Dal and Milne were once dropped, does that mean the club doesn't rate them? It bruised Ball's pride, tough. Football's a tough business.

As for the money, I don't know what he was originally on but I heard that it was close to 600,000 a year. He certainly wouldn't have gotten that with his new contract offer, but if what he was offered he felt wasn't good enough, he had every right to pursue more coin and without knowing what the Saints had offered, I can't comment on the fairness of their position.

All in all, Ball wanted to go to Collingwood and only Collingwood and the Saints had two choices, take close to nothing for him or risk getting absolutely nothing. Either way, Collingwood would have been the big winner regardless.

[fingers]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

[Moods]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

No-one has said that. It has merely been pointed out that on this particular trade, in fact on this years trading we haven't done very well.

AS for saintpeter's comments. Who says you have to wait until a court of law to decide before you sack someone? I haven't read one comment on here that says he did it. Plenty of ppl are now saying that he's not worth the trouble regardless, particularly if key members of the playing group are not keen to play with him.

So you reckon wait until the crt decides - even if the players aren't that keen to play with him? I'll say it again, the justice system is weighted heavily in favour of the defendant. Just b/c someone is found not guilty does NOT mean they didn't commit the crime. Certain players may well be in possession of certain information about the incident, there could be any number of factors as to why the players are no longer keen to bat on with him.

[markp]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

No-one has said that. It has merely been pointed out that on this particular trade, in fact on this years trading we haven't done very well.

How did we go in 2010?

[Mr Magic]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

No-one has said that. It has merely been pointed out that on this particular trade, in fact on this years trading we haven't done very well.

How did we go in 2010?

Terribly - we haven't won a game so far, not even an intra-club!

I look forward to the end of the season when we can start to review what transpired during the previous year, including drafting/trading.
It seems like there will be quite a number, as usuual, who have either been proven correct or very hasty in their determinations.

[Milton66]

Essendon are laughing their arses off over this.

Offloaded this idiot to us for #16, and the clown is so uinhinged that he wont even play a game with us.

Ross Lyon has completely stuffed up.

Completely.

It wasn't a "Stuff UP" at the time, it was a "GAMBLE". I'm pretty sure that there would have been quite a few in the heirachy of the club who contributed to the decision to gamble on him.

If a decision has in fact been made on his future (and I'm convinced it was made on Christmas Eve) we need to be mindful that it was/is NOT football related meaning the "GAMBLE" has gone sour through NO FAULT of anyone a the club !!

well whatever. we spent/lost pick 16 AND Luke Ball for Zilch during trade week!

thats crap management/trading/gambling/foresight. call it what u will. i know hindsight is a wonderful thing but its a piss poor result no matter how u spin/dice/cut it.

If pick 30 and Goldsack was still too much to ask in return for Ball as far as Collingwood was concerned, what could the club have done? Beg him to stay? Throw money at him? Promise him more game time then they believed he could be allocated? Lyon's post grand final statement was perfectly clear and Ball wanted out. Should they have started making special exceptions just to keep him? It's not a boy's club.

There were plenty on here who went from supporting the club's 'don't try and screw us' statement to 'why didn't we just cut our losses and take Collingwood's offer?', but I would love to know how many would have rated getting pick 30 and Wellingham or at best pick 25 once the dust had settled. It was hardly an offer the club couldn't refuse. I believe the majority would still say that it was a c**k-up, because we got chicken feed in return for a previous All-Australian, B&F winner and club captain.

The club clearly didn't rate nor want Wellingham and unless he absolutely sizzled in the VFL, he would just have been a list clogger. So really, it was just pick 30. As for the possibility of pick 25, if the Bulldogs say that wasn't good enough to get Everitt, then how is that fair compensation for Ball? If the Pies rate Ball good enough to offer him one million dollars for the first two years of his contract, then trade what he's worth.

For those who say that the Saint's were being greedy because they obviously didn't rate Ball, absolute rubbish. They had a new three year deal on the table since mid-season and yes, he was dropped, but not rating him would be dropping back to the VFL and letting him rot. Lyon knew Ball wasn't delivering close to what he was capable of and frankly, had every right to insist that he work on his form and earn his spot back. He still played all three finals. Dal and Milne were once dropped, does that mean the club doesn't rate them? It bruised Ball's pride, tough. Football's a tough business.

As for the money, I don't know what he was originally on but I heard that it was close to 600,000 a year. He certainly wouldn't have gotten that with his new contract offer, but if what he was offered he felt wasn't good enough, he had every right to pursue more coin and without knowing what the Saints had offered, I can't comment on the fairness of their position.

All in all, Ball wanted to go to Collingwood and only Collingwood and the Saints had two choices, take close to nothing for him or risk getting absolutely nothing. Either way, Collingwood would have been the big winner regardless.

Concise and intelligent post as per usual. Well said.

[Milton66]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

No-one has said that. It has merely been pointed out that on this particular trade, in fact on this years trading we haven't done very well.

How did we go in 2010?

Terribly - we haven't won a game so far, not even an intra-club!

I look forward to the end of the season when we can start to review what transpired during the previous year, including drafting/trading.
It seems like there will be quite a number, as usuual, who have either been proven correct or very hasty in their determinations.

I think in that case we should start tanking now, so that we can get some high draft picks to make up for this fiasco.

[3rd generation saint]

Not surprised if he was booted out, he was a gamble that promised high returns, but it appears wasn't worth the risk.
Let's not forget we have a couple of other possibilities, Peake is one that I am betting on could be a surprise. Talented player who plays mediocre in a barely mediocre team suddenly blossoms when exposed to a much higher focused, talented and hungry for success team.
It happens quite often.

[thirty-seven!?]

Not surprised if he was booted out, he was a gamble that promised high returns, but it appears wasn't worth the risk.
Let's not forget we have a couple of other possibilities, Peake is one that I am betting on could be a surprise. Talented player who plays mediocre in a barely mediocre team suddenly blossoms when exposed to a much higher focused, talented and hungry for success team.
It happens quite often.

Well if you look at Peake's form from a few years ago when Freo actually pushed for a flag, he finished second in the B&F and had a fantastic year... As the side diminished, so did his form. Hopefully he is a downward skier in its truest form!

[BigMart]

Drafting and trading isn't about how you go next year......it's about the next ten years....the more times you play in pre-lims the more chance you have of a cup....if you trade short term and have one or two cracks.....you gamble because if you don't bring in young talent.....after your window you have a long wait at the bottom. Can we afford a long wait????

Trading a potential 12 year player (#16) for a 27yo is always dangerous, and a quick fix gamble......if you trade such a pick for a guy with a well known WOEFUL character.....it goes against good club core values and therefore good list management....

Lyon was seduced by percieved positives and obviously overlooked the negatives.....like the fact that the guy is a d***head

[bigred]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

Could you expect any better from this lot?

[asiu]

No one here and if you did think it your lying would have ever dreamed getting into a GF with only losing 2 games for the year. Not in our wildest dreams you could have seen 2009 play out like it did.

andrews had the sh!ts with me all last year , because of exactly that ... i said we'd make it then lose it (and i'd be happy with that *) ... no idea about only losing two though , thought we'd come from fourth

* which is the bit i think pissed him off bigtime

but , we can only take the steps in front of us

[Eastern]

It bemuses me that last year Lyon was the trade master by taking chances on some players. This year he is the worst list manager. FFS people.

No-one has said that. It has merely been pointed out that on this particular trade, in fact on this years trading we haven't done very well.

How did we go in 2010?

Terribly - we haven't won a game so far, not even an intra-club!

I bet you 1 sponsorship share that we win the intra-club !!

[meher baba]

Essendon are laughing their arses off over this.

Offloaded this idiot to us for #16, and the clown is so uinhinged that he wont even play a game with us.

Ross Lyon has completely stuffed up.

Completely.

It wasn't a "Stuff UP" at the time, it was a "GAMBLE". I'm pretty sure that there would have been quite a few in the heirachy of the club who contributed to the decision to gamble on him.

If a decision has in fact been made on his future (and I'm convinced it was made on Christmas Eve) we need to be mindful that it was/is NOT football related meaning the "GAMBLE" has gone sour through NO FAULT of anyone a the club !!

well whatever. we spent/lost pick 16 AND Luke Ball for Zilch during trade week!

thats crap management/trading/gambling/foresight. call it what u will. i know hindsight is a wonderful thing but its a piss poor result no matter how u spin/dice/cut it.

If pick 30 and Goldsack was still too much to ask in return for Ball as far as Collingwood was concerned, what could the club have done? Beg him to stay? Throw money at him? Promise him more game time then they believed he could be allocated? Lyon's post grand final statement was perfectly clear and Ball wanted out. Should they have started making special exceptions just to keep him? It's not a boy's club.

There were plenty on here who went from supporting the club's 'don't try and screw us' statement to 'why didn't we just cut our losses and take Collingwood's offer?', but I would love to know how many would have rated getting pick 30 and Wellingham or at best pick 25 once the dust had settled. It was hardly an offer the club couldn't refuse. I believe the majority would still say that it was a c**k-up, because we got chicken feed in return for a previous All-Australian, B&F winner and club captain.

The club clearly didn't rate nor want Wellingham and unless he absolutely sizzled in the VFL, he would just have been a list clogger. So really, it was just pick 30. As for the possibility of pick 25, if the Bulldogs say that wasn't good enough to get Everitt, then how is that fair compensation for Ball? If the Pies rate Ball good enough to offer him one million dollars for the first two years of his contract, then trade what he's worth.

For those who say that the Saint's were being greedy because they obviously didn't rate Ball, absolute rubbish. They had a new three year deal on the table since mid-season and yes, he was dropped, but not rating him would be dropping back to the VFL and letting him rot. Lyon knew Ball wasn't delivering close to what he was capable of and frankly, had every right to insist that he work on his form and earn his spot back. He still played all three finals. Dal and Milne were once dropped, does that mean the club doesn't rate them? It bruised Ball's pride, tough. Football's a tough business.

As for the money, I don't know what he was originally on but I heard that it was close to 600,000 a year. He certainly wouldn't have gotten that with his new contract offer, but if what he was offered he felt wasn't good enough, he had every right to pursue more coin and without knowing what the Saints had offered, I can't comment on the fairness of their position.

All in all, Ball wanted to go to Collingwood and only Collingwood and the Saints had two choices, take close to nothing for him or risk getting absolutely nothing. Either way, Collingwood would have been the big winner regardless.

The part of the story that very few people actually know (and I'm not one of them) is the extent to which the club might have decided to "run dead" in its efforts to get Luke to stay once we knew we were going to pick up Lovett as a trade for our first round draft pick. (On a related note, I don't think I have ever seen even the remotest speculation as to what sort of $$$ we contracted to pay Lovett).

Is it possible that, once Ball refused the original offer put to him, the club decided not to budge further and instead to try to cover his role with Armo and Steven and use the freed up $$$ to buy in more run and carry players?

The problem now is that, if Lovett drops out of the picture (as seems likely), one can't help feeling that it would have been far better for us to have put a bit more effort into trying to hang onto Ball. He might not have been everything that the coach (or many of the fans on this forum) seem to have wanted him to be, but he was a quality player and a quality human being.

If Ball goes reasonably well at the Pies this season, the whole experience is going to have a bit of a demoralising effect on our club and even perhaps on our playing group. Which will be a damn shame IMO.

But, if a few things go right (eg, Armo and/or Steven stepping up big time), we still have the list to give the premiership a big shake in 2010.

So, life goes on........

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Good post re Ball, Sydneysainter.
Sorry to lose him, but footy at the highest level of the AFL is a ruthless business.
And if we're talking about the player's welfare, Luke may well end up happier, with more game time and a better contract than he would have had at the Saints.

[stinger]

Good post re Ball, Sydneysainter.
Sorry to lose him, but footy at the highest level of the AFL is a ruthless business.
And if we're talking about the player's welfare, Luke may well end up happier, with more game time and a better contract than he would have had at the Saints.

hope so......his last year with us turned to sh!t for him.....i wish him well.....he is a former captain and a best and fairest.....one day the real truth will...or may...surface....

[aussiejones]

" if a few things go right (eg, Armo and/or Steven stepping up big time), we still have the list to give the premiership a big shake in 2010"

Lists constantly change for a variety of reasons .

Its a pity that RL and Ball couldnt resolve their issues , but I would rather have 100% committment from up and commers than a reluctant Ball. I wish him well , but its not the end of the world.

Lovett was a risk that didnt work out . We could have equally picked up a dud with his selection ( goodness knows we have 'wasted' picks in the past . So time to move on ..We do have a good list and some exciting prospects coming through fighting for spots in the team.

[bozza1980]

Innocent until proven guilty. This rule of law applies to all citizens of this great and fair country. If he were sacked for this, still alleged incident and subsequently found innocent in a court of law, the club could be sued for many millions. Who knows what actually happened, unless any members of ti forum were actually present.

Best regards for the new year but please think carefully before typing so much defamatory nonsense.

Peter

Two points:

1 - Being charged with a serious offence would be grounds for termination
2 - Innocent and Not Guilty, you don't need one to have the other.

The standard of proof to sack someone does not need to be anywhere near as high as it is to take away their freedom. As such we don't need to worry about unlawful dismissal if he was terminated after being charged, but later found not guilty.

Let me add as a postscript, that I am in no position to comment on his guilt or innocence and in no way am I trying to. I am merely speculating on what might happen if he was charged.

[Richter]

Proven gun?

Not in my book. A bloke who can't finish in his clubs top 10 of their B&F? Not even once. THis same player was playing in a bottom 8 team for much of that time. Your definition of a gun is different to mine.

Very much in agreeance with this.

Averages over a goal a game from the midfield.

Compare his 2009 season to that of Andrew Mcqualter....

Player.................. MT. K... Avg. H.. Avg.. D.. Avg.. Ma Avg T. Avg G Avg SC Rat Avg
Andrew Lovett..... 22 292 13.3 167 7.6 459 20.9 74 3.4 56 2.5 21 1 143 1770 80.5
Andrew McQualter 24 123 5.1 222 9.3 345 14.4 61 2.5 112 4.7 22 0.9 139 1574 65.6

Mcqualter is a GOP who has just had his best season ever playing in the midfield/small forward role. He averaged 0.9 goals per game, 4.7 tackles per game and 14.4 disposals per game. Lovett averaged 1 goal a game, 2.5 tackles per game and 20.9 disposals per game.

Put it another way. We need a pacy mid who gets the ball and snags a goal. Here is a list of players who averaged over 20 disposals last year - only these players had a higher goals per game average in 2009 than Lovett.....

Gary Ablett Jnr
Paul Chapman
Marc Murphy
Colin Sylvia
Brad Green
Brad Johnson
Adam Goodes
Lindsay Gilbey
Shaun Higgins
Justin Sherman
Leon Davis
Daniel Giansiracusa

Not bad company eh?

Like I said. ON-FIELD a proven gun.

[Teflon]

Drafting and trading isn't about how you go next year......it's about the next ten years....the more times you play in pre-lims the more chance you have of a cup....

Don't agree.

This totally ignores where the club is at right at the moment - not all draft situations are about the next ten years....I know the Dogs aren't thinking that way with Hall/Acker and Co.......Clubs know where their lists are at in terms of serious flag assaults and no one in the footy world questions that St Kilda's time is now.

We also have recruited kids along the way lets not forget.

Can we afford a lenghty stay on the bottom? ....can any club? facts are with free agency, introduction of new clubs and recruitment now coming from all directions Im not convinced the traditional "boom bust" cycle will continue. Lyon is a Sydney product - they clearly haven't beleived in it and done quite well.....could I stand a 3 year bottom period IF we won the 2010 Flag.....Im gonna say yes right now...

Lovett was a gamble that didnt pay off - one Lyon got wrong. So be it, I could see where he was going with the trade in terms of our squad and the upside Lovett presented.

[Milton66]

If Ball goes reasonably well at the Pies this season, the whole experience is going to have a bit of a demoralising effect on our club and even perhaps on our playing group. Which will be a damn shame IMO.

Why would Ball leaving demoralise theclub or the players for that matter?

If it does then we might as well pack up now.

Lovett and Ball are completely different players who bring different abilities to the table.

If Ball goes well for the Pies, then good luck to him. He probably still wouldn;t get more game time had he stayed. On the other hand, if he improves a s a player, then why couldn't he do it with us?