Saintsational Fan Forum - A passionate community of St Kilda Football Club fans discussing news, history, players, trade rumours, results, AFL stats and more.
plugger66 wrote:
Whats makes grown up men allegedly sexually assault someone.
It's hard to believe that you wouldn't know the answer but, because it's Xmas I'll pretend you aren't baiting me.
The men involve are fuelled by testosterone and a sense of power and invulnerability. There might also be a (nonsensical to you and me, but real enough to them) belief that coming home with them=implied consent.
It's easy to take the politically correct (and legally correct) path and state that the men are evil criminals and the girls innocent victims. But I'm of the view that girls who find themselves in this situation have been failed by a whole range of people, not just by the guys who take advantage of them.
Why are the young women of Australia increasingly going out and getting paralytically drunk on vodka cruisers or whatever? What draws so many of them towards "bad boys" who they have grounds for realizing are not going to treat them with much respect. And so on. These are serious questions
that cases like these are raising more and more frequently.
It's too simplistic just to think that it's all about evil males and poor victimized females. If only that was all there was to it all......
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
Soo happy to get this bloke.......speed.........skill......attitude
Now he can P1$$ off.
There is no room for this behaviour in this club.
The current professional culture has taken 10 years to solidify.
Why risk any further damage to it with a complete IDIOT.
Clearly has problems bigger than the club can manage and obviously the reason the Bombers pulled the pin.
Where have you read that the woman was 'plastered' Meher?
And why b/c a jury finds someone not guilty does that mean they are innocent Batnoe? Does this mean he automatically didn't do it?
And To THe Top you seem to enjoy showing off your legal prowess, even if you are making some sweeping assumptions about the legal system and how women use it to their advantage. If you are part of the judicial process then you should know better than most that the decision by the jury is just that - a decision often made without all the facts. THe only ppl who have all the facts in front of them are the ones who are doing their best to change the facts to their advanatage - the lawyers involved. The judge is guided by law regardless of his opinion.
Meher some girls do put themselves in poor situations, but if you're going to make comments like that, then you should expect far worse return fire than what plugger gave you.
How many ppl on here really know what happened in the Milne/Montagna case other than what they read in the media? Let's not hold this up as a shining example unless ppl know the facts.
Stand him down until the matter is dealt with by the proper judicial authorities.
That is not an implication of guilt or innocence, more a temporary solution on our part as we seek to allow justice to take its natural course.
As a club, we should be offering our full support for Andrew in a difficult circumstance. We don't eat our own at St Kilda.
However, we must be diligent in striving to maintain players of the highest calibre.
Maybe he will get it together from here; maybe he won't. Either way, let's stand by our player - as an employee of the club - until we know all the facts.
Moods, if the girl wasn't plastered, then I'm even more mystified as to how she ended up where she ended up.
But, I also agree with your point that I have jumped to conclusions before all of the facts of the case have become clear.
And you and Plugger66 are so wrong if you think I am in any way trying to justify rape. I'm simply interested in, and concerned about, how these situations develop. I have a teenage son and a pre-teen daughter and am worried about the sort of society into which they are going to emerge as young adults. Perhaps I'm getting too old, but it seems to me to be a society which encourages young men to behave more violently and young women to behave more recklessly than ever before.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
Plastered or not.
Lovett can piss off. Don't need this sort of shite around the football club.
He's been at the Saints for two months and already shown the sort of arse wipe he is.
Spend the club's time and money on something useful.
Leave your ego's in the locker when you start and pick them up again when you retire
You make an excellent point meher, but unfortunately one that is difficult to separate into a discussion ... the nature of these issues means that they are often discussed in terms of "right" and "wrong", without recognition of all the shades of grey in between ...
4. I'm also a bit bothered about these girls who allow themselves to get plastered with drunken, randy footballers and then end up unconscious with the same blokes in a strange house. What do they think is going to happen to them: wake up to breakfast in bed and an intense discussion about female empowerment and the fragillity of masculinity in the 21st century post modern cultural milieu??
However, the issue is Lovett. The Saints must wait and see what the outcome of the investigation is, but if charges are laid I certainly do not see him ever pulling on a St Kilda jumper.
Certainly the only way I can see Lovett ever playing for the Saints would be if the charges were dropped, the police issued a statement that nothing improper had occurred, Lovett paid a serious fine, voluntarily committed to counselling and was banned from playing until he sorted himself out.
Legendary wrote:However, the issue is Lovett. The Saints must wait and see what the outcome of the investigation is, but if charges are laid I certainly do not see him ever pulling on a St Kilda jumper.
Certainly the only way I can see Lovett ever playing for the Saints would be if the charges were dropped, the police issued a statement that nothing improper had occurred, Lovett paid a serious fine, voluntarily committed to counselling and was banned from playing until he sorted himself out.
I doubt that even that would do it. Lovett's problem is that the past behaviour of his predecessors and peers in the footballing world have denied him even the remotest hope of a symathetic hearing. Which shows him to be totally foolish for having put himself in this situation.H
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
Gee people forget quickly, 2 months ago he was the best thing and best trade we have ever had.
He has a 3 year contract with no get out clauses, what is the point of sacking him if he is proven innocent? We still have to pay him out, we may as well see what else happens.
Now before you all say , but he is a cancer he is wrecking our culture, we wont win this going on behind doors... In 2004 with Milne and Joey we won the first 10 of the year straight after it had happened... this wont do anything to the culturte of the club
I suppose the people that want Lovett sacked also hate Raph, i can see the common denomenator here
ashjam wrote:Considering I broke the news on here first hours before it came out with the following:
Posted: Thu 24 Dec 2009 10:52am Post subject: Some very bad news on the way I believe today
I am not going to say what it is, but all I can say is I strongly doubt one of our star new recruits will ever play for us.
Can you unlock this post now please?
Also, just to let you know, Lovett was with 3 Essendon Aboriginal players last night, no St.Kilda players were present.
Why would we unlock it, so we can discuss what we are discussing here, in there?
And you posted a rumour, without stating what it was about, or who was involved.
Pointless thread because you affectively said nothing.
Either post what you know, or don't post.
So on that basis any post that says something along the lines of "big news at the club today to be announced. Can't say too much yet" will be locked and the person told to effectively shut up?
Are you serious?
This person was right on the money but obviously couldn't say anything more. But within a couple of hours was proven correct.
The original decision to lock his OP was premature.
That is precisely why I come to Saintsational...to find out first what is going on. If you are going to lock posts and lecture the poster that say what ashjam said, then I believe you are on the wrong track.
IMO.
Merry Christmas to all Sainters. Terribly disappointed with Andrew Lovett. The truth will out in the fullness of time. Let's not forget the alleged victim in all of this.
Poster formerly known as SENsaintsational. More wisdom. More knowledge. Less name.
Are you a racist Batnoe ?
That's your implication ! Or are you saying that anyone who is having the slightest concern re the Lovett incident is a racist.
Get a life sunshine.
Leave your ego's in the locker when you start and pick them up again when you retire
Longwayfromhome wrote:Are you a racist Batnoe ?
That's your implication ! Or are you saying that anyone who is having the slightest concern re the Lovett incident is a racist.
Get a life sunshine.
Ok mate, u get a life stain... where in my last post does it say i am racist?
We know people bag Raph out.... i dont
Now read this thread and see how many people want Lovett sacked... I do not...
I am saying that 2 months ago the whole saints fraternity were behind drafting Lovett, now they are all saying get rid of him...
The ones that are saying sack Lovett are also the ones that want Raph sacked so i am pointing out the ones that want Lovett gone after this incident are the racists mate
How about you find out what race i am before you make those comments smart arse
Longwayfromhome wrote:Are you a racist Batnoe ?
That's your implication ! Or are you saying that anyone who is having the slightest concern re the Lovett incident is a racist.
Get a life sunshine.
Ok mate, u get a life stain... where in my last post does it say i am racist?
We know people bag Raph out.... i dont
Now read this thread and see how many people want Lovett sacked... I do not...
I am saying that 2 months ago the whole saints fraternity were behind drafting Lovett, now they are all saying get rid of him...
The ones that are saying sack Lovett are also the ones that want Raph sacked so i am pointing out the ones that want Lovett gone after this incident are the racists mate
How about you find out what race i am before you make those comments smart arse
Don't worry about him Bats...
I have known you for a few years and the only person that needs to get a life, is the c**k with ears that mentioned you should have one...
You call it as you see it...
I didn't find a racist tone or remark in anything you have stated...
Just forget the flogger, is what I recommend
Don't wait for the light at the end of the tunnel to appear, run down there and light the bloody thing yourself!
Longwayfromhome wrote:Are you a racist Batnoe ?
That's your implication ! Or are you saying that anyone who is having the slightest concern re the Lovett incident is a racist.
Get a life sunshine.
Ok mate, u get a life stain... where in my last post does it say i am racist?
We know people bag Raph out.... i dont
Now read this thread and see how many people want Lovett sacked... I do not...
I am saying that 2 months ago the whole saints fraternity were behind drafting Lovett, now they are all saying get rid of him...
The ones that are saying sack Lovett are also the ones that want Raph sacked so i am pointing out the ones that want Lovett gone after this incident are the racists mate
How about you find out what race i am before you make those comments smart arse
Don't worry about him Bats...
I have known you for a few years and the only person that needs to get a life, is the c**k with ears that mentioned you should have one...
You call it as you see it...
I didn't find a racist tone or remark in anything you have stated...
Just forget the flogger, is what I recommend
Cheers Fids... Yeah its all good, i guess not all people that want sacking of Lovett hate Raph, but there would be a few that do
ashjam wrote:Your right 'Gabba'
Next time I will say nothing.
Until you can quote a reliable source, what a very good idea
Why do you need to quote a "reliable source", if you know the truth? It doesn't matter who it comes from if it's fact.
"Reliable sources" can still get it "wrong" and "unreliable sources" can still get it "right". I'll take the facts over probabilities any day.
Legendary wrote:
Andrew Lovett stands at this moment as an innocent man, and we must assume his innocence until any charge is laid and proved in a court of law.
Aren't you aware that "assumption is the mother of all f*** up's"? It's not wise to assume anything. I think you mean "presumption".
Batnoe wrote:OJ got off!! Yes, is it because he was a sports star with good lawyers? or because he didnt do it?
The fact he got off means he is innocent or so the jury and judge thought!!
Even if he did do it, if he had the right case then he will get off which means he is innocent...
I know a lot of lawyers who have gotten people off for murder, thats their job... I also know a judge and he said he can get anyone off at his discretion as there is a clause in there to be manipulated...
It is bad for the game if Lovett gets caught so therefore i think he wont be found guilty... He will be on his last strike if he does get found innocent
Accused people aren't found to be "innocent". The case against them is either proved beyond reasonable doubt or it is not. In the OJ case he was acquitted because the case against him couldn't be proved to that standard. A separate court later found him responsible for the woman's death on the balance of probabilities. While our criminal legal system is for very good reason based around the principle that someone is innocent until proven guilty, an acquittal doesn't necessarily wipe the slate clean in all respects.
Exactly. Just because you're found "not guilty" doesn't mean you're "innocent". You may be "found innocent" but that doesn't make it so.
Ross etc will know in their guts if he did what he's been accused of and if he did it I hope they say ADIOS.
Batnoe wrote:Gee people forget quickly, 2 months ago he was the best thing and best trade we have ever had.
He has a 3 year contract with no get out clauses, what is the point of sacking him if he is proven innocent? We still have to pay him out, we may as well see what else happens.
Now before you all say , but he is a cancer he is wrecking our culture, we wont win this going on behind doors... In 2004 with Milne and Joey we won the first 10 of the year straight after it had happened... this wont do anything to the culturte of the club
I suppose the people that want Lovett sacked also hate Raph, i can see the common denomenator here
That is a real silly and immature comment.
Some people might want Lovett sacked for his indiscretions.
Some people might not rate Clarke as a footballer
Means s*** all.
I could give you a list of players that I dont think should be on an AFL list yet played most senior games last year....And you wont find a common denominator.
I sit here thinking how hypercritical I am.....especially given how I preached the Fevola should of been traded without a doubt.
But, and an on-going but - If Lovett if found not-guilty, I want him in our team. I want him in our colours. Why? Because he is a terrific player on the field, and worthy of the first rounder we gave up.
If we are worried he might cause the other players to transgress, well we might as well as not even try because if they are influenced that easily - it will occur with or without Lovett.
What we should be concerned about is our brand.
But sacking an innocent Lovett is a total loss for our club. Retaining him provides light at the end of the tunnel for the club. Similar stories like Geelong's persistence with Johnson, and West Coast's persistence with Cousins (albeit for another year or so)....Both obtained flags.
We sack him, and its a straight out loss for the club - keep and we provide light. Assuming if charges or if he's found not guilty.
I just hope I see him play in our colours.....Because I seriously doubt we will.
