Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
Have to seriously disagree with that. Cripps disposal was awful. We use to watch him bomb it to a contest and shake our heads. He was nowhere near Harvey in any aspect of his game.St Fidelius wrote:
Cripps was a great player and at his peak was close to Harvey with his evasive skills.
Cripps was better than Harvey with his disposal.
Just maybe they arent good enough. How did Khan go in his 2 years. huge gap from Sydney footy to VFL let alone AFL. I dont think getting them or not getting them will have any bearing on the club now or into the future.vacuous space wrote:Is there any news there? There's a guy on BF claiming he knows Josh and that he hasn't been offered a spot. It seems very strange to turn down what is essentially a free player. What's the deadline for the scholarship kids?ace wrote:...there may even be hope for Josh Duncan and Ted Widner yet.
now thats a huge call, many rookies have gone on to make big careers for thmselves so to suggest either kid could not make it at this stage unless you have watched them over and over is a questionable guess at best.plugger66 wrote:Just maybe they arent good enough. How did Khan go in his 2 years. huge gap from Sydney footy to VFL let alone AFL. I dont think getting them or not getting them will have any bearing on the club now or into the future.vacuous space wrote:Is there any news there? There's a guy on BF claiming he knows Josh and that he hasn't been offered a spot. It seems very strange to turn down what is essentially a free player. What's the deadline for the scholarship kids?ace wrote:...there may even be hope for Josh Duncan and Ted Widner yet.
BigMart wrote:WOW - Jason Cripps compared to Rob Harvey.......I've now heard everything......I often wonder why average past players are so overrated...
His comparison to L.Fisher is spot on..
Both 6' Half backs with big bodies, average disposal, both very committed, sufered the same injury around the same time in their careers and returned to have similar impacts afterwards...
They both played 50-60 games
BTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
Anyway....thanks for the service (esp Leigh, who has admirable qualities) and goodluck in future endevours
You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
Yes a huge gap indeed from Sydney under age club footy to AFL, but not one that can't be crossed.plugger66 wrote:Just maybe they arent good enough. How did Khan go in his 2 years. huge gap from Sydney footy to VFL let alone AFL. I dont think getting them or not getting them will have any bearing on the club now or into the future.vacuous space wrote:Is there any news there? There's a guy on BF claiming he knows Josh and that he hasn't been offered a spot. It seems very strange to turn down what is essentially a free player. What's the deadline for the scholarship kids?ace wrote:...there may even be hope for Josh Duncan and Ted Widner yet.
No, Marts call was early and right and proof Beveridge was finished.saint66au wrote:You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
It was more than a rant actually..its was a pretty personal attack on JB as an egomaniac as I recall
A number of clubs over-rated the quality of the Queensland competition that year.saint66au wrote:You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
It was more than a rant actually..its was a pretty personal attack on JB as an egomaniac as I recall
I don't think that's true. It's still pretty early on, but a lot of the Queenslanders appear to be at least decent. Howard was actually a holdover from the previous year - he hadn't nominated in 05. JB had liked him at the champs and kept tabs on him. He was drafted from Redlands, as was Paul O'Shea. AFAIK, those are the only Queenslanders from that draft who have been delisted so far.ace wrote:An unusual number of Queenslanders were taken early in the draft that year and most turned out to be duds.
I don't know. Here's some of the teams who passed on Queensland talent. I don't think the group looks particularly better than the QLD group.Those clubs that didn't take Queenslanders that year are grinners.
yes remember it to the day. a young guy who had played 3 years in the under 18 comp however what that has to do with todays under 18 is beyond meace wrote:Yes a huge gap indeed from Sydney under age club footy to AFL, but not one that can't be crossed.plugger66 wrote:Just maybe they arent good enough. How did Khan go in his 2 years. huge gap from Sydney footy to VFL let alone AFL. I dont think getting them or not getting them will have any bearing on the club now or into the future.vacuous space wrote:Is there any news there? There's a guy on BF claiming he knows Josh and that he hasn't been offered a spot. It seems very strange to turn down what is essentially a free player. What's the deadline for the scholarship kids?ace wrote:...there may even be hope for Josh Duncan and Ted Widner yet.
Seem to remember a St Kilda midfielder who made it.
I think he may even have been appointed captain back in 2004.
Now what is his name ........
Oh well, maybe Josh Duncan can follow in his footsteps.
All you have shown me is that it was a super crap draft that year.vacuous space wrote:I don't think that's true. It's still pretty early on, but a lot of the Queenslanders appear to be at least decent. Howard was actually a holdover from the previous year - he hadn't nominated in 05. JB had liked him at the champs and kept tabs on him. He was drafted from Redlands, as was Paul O'Shea. AFAIK, those are the only Queenslanders from that draft who have been delisted so far.ace wrote:An unusual number of Queenslanders were taken early in the draft that year and most turned out to be duds.
Here's the list (I may have missed someone):
9 - David Armitage - St Kilda
17 - Shaun Hampson - Carlton
21 - David Urquhart - North
22 - Albert Proud - Brisbane
24 - Brent Renouf - Hawthorn
27 - Brad Howard - St Kilda
30 - Ricky Petterd - Melbourne
32 - Kurt Tippett - Adelaide
69 - Ben Warren - North
76 - Paul O'Shea - Bulldogs
79 - Jesse White - Sydney
I don't know. Here's some of the teams who passed on Queensland talent. I don't think the group looks particularly better than the QLD group.Those clubs that didn't take Queenslanders that year are grinners.
8 - Ben Reid - Collingwood
16 - Mitch Brown - West Coast
19 - Shaun Grigg - Carlton
20 - Tom Hislop - Essendon
23 - Paul Stewart - Port Adelaide
26 - Shane Edwards - Richmond
29 - Eric MacKenzie - West Coast
31 - Clayton Collard - Fremantle
67 - Joe Anderson - Carlton
74 - Matthew Ferguson - St Kilda
78 - Bryce Campbell - Adelaide
The Howard pick appeared odd then. Unfortunately, the doubters have proven correct.
That is very harsh on Bryce Gibbs but yes the others have been ordinary to say the least. Wouldnt give up on Leuenberger being a very good player either.ace wrote:All you have shown me is that it was a super crap draft that year.vacuous space wrote:I don't think that's true. It's still pretty early on, but a lot of the Queenslanders appear to be at least decent. Howard was actually a holdover from the previous year - he hadn't nominated in 05. JB had liked him at the champs and kept tabs on him. He was drafted from Redlands, as was Paul O'Shea. AFAIK, those are the only Queenslanders from that draft who have been delisted so far.ace wrote:An unusual number of Queenslanders were taken early in the draft that year and most turned out to be duds.
Here's the list (I may have missed someone):
9 - David Armitage - St Kilda
17 - Shaun Hampson - Carlton
21 - David Urquhart - North
22 - Albert Proud - Brisbane
24 - Brent Renouf - Hawthorn
27 - Brad Howard - St Kilda
30 - Ricky Petterd - Melbourne
32 - Kurt Tippett - Adelaide
69 - Ben Warren - North
76 - Paul O'Shea - Bulldogs
79 - Jesse White - Sydney
I don't know. Here's some of the teams who passed on Queensland talent. I don't think the group looks particularly better than the QLD group.Those clubs that didn't take Queenslanders that year are grinners.
8 - Ben Reid - Collingwood
16 - Mitch Brown - West Coast
19 - Shaun Grigg - Carlton
20 - Tom Hislop - Essendon
23 - Paul Stewart - Port Adelaide
26 - Shane Edwards - Richmond
29 - Eric MacKenzie - West Coast
31 - Clayton Collard - Fremantle
67 - Joe Anderson - Carlton
74 - Matthew Ferguson - St Kilda
78 - Bryce Campbell - Adelaide
The Howard pick appeared odd then. Unfortunately, the doubters have proven correct.
The pathetic southern state rivals made the Queenslanders look good when they were not.
How Joel Selwood slipped to pick 7 is unbelievable.
With 2 broken legs and 2 broken arms he still should have been taken higher.
The top 10
1. Bryce Gibbs (Carl)
2. Scott Gumbleton (Ess)
3. Lachie Hansen (N Melb)
4. Matthew Leuenberger (Bris)
5. Travis Boak (Pt Ad)
6. Mitch Thorp (Haw)
7. Joel Selwood (Geel)
8. Ben Reid (Coll)
9. David Armitage (St K)
10. Nathan J Brown (Coll)
Last year was their third year, and one player Selwood, has done more than the other 9 combined.
BM was correct in calling it the way he did..saint66au wrote:You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
It was more than a rant actually..its was a pretty personal attack on JB as an egomaniac as I recall
How has Andrew mackie been playing at Geelong the last few years? You may want to look at his history before they got him with somthing like pick 8. Hindsight is the greatest gift of all.BallBanger wrote:BM was correct in calling it the way he did..saint66au wrote:You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
It was more than a rant actually..its was a pretty personal attack on JB as an egomaniac as I recall
Howard was a smokie and should have been taken later to take advantage of an unknown
No advantage in taking a smokie at where JB rated him
My personal favourite was when he came on after becoming a father/inventing fatherhood and announced that he was too good a father to waste time posting on this site (unlike all the inferior dads).saint66au wrote:You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant
BallBanger wrote:It has nothing to do with Howards ability/nor hindsight but I'm not surprised with your commentplugger66 wrote:How has Andrew mackie been playing at Geelong the last few years? You may want to look at his history before they got him with somthing like pick 8. Hindsight is the greatest gift of all.BallBanger wrote:BM was correct in calling it the way he did..saint66au wrote:You couldnt resist bringing that up could you?? lol...yay to be you...you got one rightBTW - am I now justified in my rant when Howard was claimed with Pick 27 in the ND, when I was certain he was speculative at best, and many more players were overlooked who have made an impact at AFL level and were obvious selections..... he went on to play 1 game in 4 years and barely broke into the VFL seniors...
It was more than a rant actually..its was a pretty personal attack on JB as an egomaniac as I recall
Howard was a smokie and should have been taken later to take advantage of an unknown
No advantage in taking a smokie at where JB rated him
Quixote
Club Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 185 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 6:01pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Yep and I reckon Lyon will not really show his tactics until Round One.
All of the rookies - barring Jones - are just that, rookies.
Howard is a ways off.
And yeah, it may take until mid-season or even 08 for the players to adapt to a completely new coaching style.
_________________
The Saints in '07 - Reaching the Windmill.
Back to top
BallBanger
Club Player
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 270 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 7:22pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
Also, as we are all looking for excuses injuries/newCoach etc etc (with reason) it must be hurting our membership..to offer something more would be good rationale.
Back to top
Quixote
Club Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 185 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 7:37pm Post subject:
________________________________________
I think they freaked a bit on the speed issue. Felt they needed someone - anyone - with super pace.
I have genuine hope for Howard though. He's still young.
_________________
The Saints in '07 - Reaching the Windmill.
Back to top
joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 5095 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 7:38pm Post subject:
________________________________________
BallBanger wrote:
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
The plain fact is that you just dont know this at all. You may well be proven correct, but you have no idea you are correct that nobody else would have taken him.
Was Allen plain dumb at 55?
You dont have a crystal ball and Beveridge would know more about it then you ever would.
So it might be your opinion that it was plain dumb, but dont present it as fact, unless you can come up with some corroborating evidence that states that no other club was going to take Howard before pick 55. Otherwise it is just guesswork heresay.
_________________
A fanatic cant change his mind and wont change the subject - Winston Churchill
Back to top
Iratedebate
Club Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 39 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 7:49pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Quote:
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
Also, as we are all looking for excuses injuries/newCoach etc etc (with reason) it must be hurting our membership..to offer something more would be good rationale
I agree. We all hope that Howard turns out to be as good as JB rated him, but to use pick 27 on a kid that most thought (even himself i might add) would be rookie listed at best was ridiculous.
Back to top
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 7400
Location: Happy as a Pig In Mud with RL as coach Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 9:03pm Post subject:
________________________________________
...yeh....and who is this Sam Fisher guy anyway they picked at 55..
The guys a golfer...has hardly played...no other club wanted him....what was JB thinking
_________________
2007..at last our Heaven!!!
Back to top
Dan Warna
SS Life Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3294
Location: melbourne Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 9:03pm Post subject:
________________________________________
it could be a mental issue?
I remember a young HF called tim allen who was too good for the seconds and choked every time he was in the seniors, got picked by the hawks and cats after us.
TONNES of talent, used to tear up the in the magoos, owned CHF, was real leadership material, superb mark, massive kick, quick on and off the ball.
put in the seniors, he used to muff chest marks, play on into trouble, miss set shots from 10m out etc etc.
I would say if bevo thought howard was the goods, then he has the talent, I think its too early to judge a player now.
I remember when people were saying trade kosi, reiwoldt (YES REIWOLDT!!!! when he was out injured that first year) wringing their hands at the drafting of ball, thought dal santo was nothing much and were hoping we could get a round 2 or 3 draft pick for Maguire.
Give howard a fair chance IMO. Bevo hasn't set us wrong much over the years.
_________________
"Thar she blows, the GREAT WHITE Whale what stole my Oxygen..."
THAT australian footy journo: too young to die, too big to harpoon...
Back to top
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 7400
Location: Happy as a Pig In Mud with RL as coach Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 9:11pm Post subject:
________________________________________
The background I have seen on Howrd is that he is a very good athlete who needs to learn how to play football more.
Hence my parallel with Sam....
Howard has been recruited to be developed into a footballer rather than being a ready made footballer......and seeing Howard in the practice matches was never going to suddenly reveal him as Game 1 ready....but rather a guy with raw talent that would looka little lost as a footballer.
_________________
2007..at last our Heaven!!!
Back to top
Iratedebate
Club Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 39 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 9:48pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Quote:
I would say if bevo thought howard was the goods, then he has the talent, I think its too early to judge a player now
I am in No way doubting that Howard has some talent and he may become a fine 100+ game player for our club. However, i do question the pick that we took him at considering what little interest it seems other clubs showed towards him.
Back to top
Quixote
Club Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 185 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 9:53pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Contrary, Beveridge was reported stating that the Dogs, Cats and Dons were keen to get him in that round or the next.
_________________
The Saints in '07 - Reaching the Windmill.
Back to top
BallBanger
Club Player
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 270 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 10:00pm Post subject:
________________________________________
joffaboy wrote:
BallBanger wrote:
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
The plain fact is that you just dont know this at all. You may well be proven correct, but you have no idea you are correct that nobody else would have taken him.
Was Allen plain dumb at 55?
You dont have a crystal ball and Beveridge would know more about it then you ever would.
So it might be your opinion that it was plain dumb, but dont present it as fact, unless you can come up with some corroborating evidence that states that no other club was going to take Howard before pick 55. Otherwise it is just guesswork heresay.
You miss my point JB....I'm not surprised looking at some of your assessments...where did I say howard would be no good?? and if it was pace that he freaked out over (and he should) never worried him before as blind freddy and the drovers dog could see that his drafting has not prioritised this need.
I think that even you can now see this requirement...how could he not notice it developing...have a look at scorpions last season and tell me which quickish players we may be looking at promoting.
Read my threads over the last couple of years and you will notice me harping on this.
You don't have a footy background do you??
Back to top
BallBanger
Club Player
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 270 Posted: Sat 03 Mar 2007 10:17pm Post subject:
________________________________________
saintsRrising wrote:
...yeh....and who is this Sam Fisher guy anyway they picked at 55..
The guys a golfer...has hardly played...no other club wanted him....what was JB thinking
I agree SR should have drafted more unknowns rather than proven failures/rejects if you like....but going on Fishers form he is worth more than a 55 pick that bevo took him. So we did well did we not?? then why would you not have taken Howard lower and maybe the possibility of snagging two highly rated players for the price of one.
Can you please explain why we took McGough??? I nearly broke the radio when I heard this....slow slow slow. Everyone I know laughed at me..not my doing, I knew it was madness but how on earth did he end up with us???
Back to top
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 7400
Location: Happy as a Pig In Mud with RL as coach Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 12:02am Post subject:
________________________________________
BallBanger wrote:
Can you please explain why we took McGough??? I nearly broke the radio when I heard this....slow slow slow. Everyone I know laughed at me..not my doing, I knew it was madness but how on earth did he end up with us???
Me?? no....
My views were that he was slow with poor skills but a huge ball magnet. The saints were already overloaded with slow midfielders with variable skills. Adding to a weakness to me is not a path forward. I have posted on this at length under List Management in the past.
Given the direction of the game was going towards quicker players with good footskills (and this is basically why the Pies delisted him) his drafting always looked odd.
If he had been cheaper...maybe wortha punt...for depth...but was drafted too early.
However I suspect that you are posing this question in light of JBs draft selections. I do not know what role JB has played with our recruiting of players from other clubs. JB is on record as saying he watches very little AFL...as he is too busy looking at players in the other competitions for future drafts. I would guess that others at St Kilda were of influence such as they were with Guerra. Irrespective the Coach of the time takes responsibilty for players drafted/traded/rookied under his watch. How much or how little he is directly involved does not matter for it his choice as how he manages his list selection process and additions or deletions to it....it is his ultimate responsibilty.
RL will be responsible for the value delivered to the Saints by Gardi, M Clarke, Birss etc...
_________________
2007..at last our Heaven!!!
Back to top
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 7400
Location: Happy as a Pig In Mud with RL as coach Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 12:18am Post subject:
________________________________________
PS....look I was surprised as anyone that we took Howard at 27...
However I am willing to put faith into JB for his selection of players outside of the AFL........
At this stage based open 1 NAB and 1 praccie game there is simply not enough data to be definitive about Howard one way or the other...
Furthmore given his age and (in)experience I would not expect there to be.....
This does discount that exceptional players such as Army can look ready made....
_________________
2007..at last our Heaven!!!
Back to top
cwrcyn
Club Player
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 36
Location: earth Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 8:16am Post subject:
________________________________________
I think the year McGough was drafted was a very week draft, and there was bugger-all quality after pick 25. However, it was still a very dumb decision to draft him.
Interestingly, when S. Baker was selected at pick 25, it was a reasonably good draft. I watched Baker closley for his first season and he looked like he had very little going for him. He couldn't find the ball, got lost in heavy traffic, etc. I wrote him off. Look at him now.
We seem to have this expectation that they're all just going to look like seasoned footballers from the start. And you'll find in every draft many players who look to have the goods and are highly rated just never kicking on and making the grade. Just because some guy writes a phantom draft and ranks a player in a certain range each year means nothing.
On the subject of list management, expect our new coach to dump at least ten players at the year's end. We have a very strong list from 1 to 25, but it falls away terribly after that, with very little young talent to develop. (one of the weakest groups in the competition from 26 to 38).
We have a pretty good idea that Harvey, Thompson, Gehrig, Clarke will retire, and the likes of Sweeney, Gwilt, Brooks(ouch, bad trade), McQualter, Raymond and co. had better make their mark or it's sayonara.
Back to top
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 7400
Location: Happy as a Pig In Mud with RL as coach Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 11:37am Post subject:
________________________________________
In recent years the clubs drafting record of kids in the main draft has been pretty good. It is not exact science.....but our results on the whoe have been good. As you say there is an unrealistic expectation that all draftees can make an instant impact. They cannot.
Kosi, Ball and Roo are all exceptional players and were capable of making exceptional impact...most are not that gifted. As an aside hindsight now also flags that perhaps these young players were worked too hard to early.
However our recruiting in some specific areas has been quite poor.
Rookies. Has been dismal. It is very pleasing to see this area being trated now asa more serious source of potential AFL players and greater resources are being devoted to 1/ select players in the first place and then 2/ to develop this raw talent.
Recruiting of AFL players discarded (or who were about to be) from other AFL clubs. This has been prety much a waste of time. I am comfortable with the aquistion of Sugar...not beacuse he wasa good ruckman, but rather that with our ruck stocks being so poor that we had to do something (the bigger problem was letting our ruck stocks deteriorate so much in the first place...).
Now I am talking about players here that other AFL clubs had basically decided were not good enough for AFL (Knobel, McG, Guerra...) and not players such as Voss, Gram etc that wanted an opportunity at another club....or a fresh start for other reasons....(ie GTrain, Hamill, Penny) etc.
I think Powell has been about our 1 good pick up from this area.
Individually any one of these discarded players could be argued to have been worthy of giving a go....however the draft price paid was often too high....and the overall resuts from this group has not ben good.....and if the picks had been left to say "best available" kids of the player type required the club would have been better off.
Was JB the final say, or the responsibilty to identify talent, in these two areas? I do not know.
With rookies I would suspect yes...but in JBs defence I think his brief would have been to not put as much effort into it (and to be fair club such as WC put a lot more staff into this area...and yes also reaped two All austrlians and 6 premiership players from the rookie pool) and to spend his precious time elsewhere
With discarded players...what was JB's role? Was he the actual decision-maker??? Not much has been said here...JB has said that he does not watch much AFL...and Rendell was said to figure in the PA recruits.
PS...I like most fans was in raptures when Guerra first played for us....when his hot streak occurred. But then his offield and on-field habits which he had at PA came to the fore...
PSS.. I have no problems with the Saints aquiring Fiora. Black put a gun to our head and in the end we got what we could.
PSSS...Please don't take my comments to be knocking JB..I think he has done a great job, but that he has been expected to do too much.......and as posted above.....I would guess that the discarded players group had other fingers in the pie.
_________________
2007..at last our Heaven!!!
Back to top
joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 5095 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 12:56pm Post subject:
________________________________________
quote="BallBanger"]joffaboy wrote:
BallBanger wrote:
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
Quixote wrote:
Contrary, Beveridge was reported stating that the Dogs, Cats and Dons were keen to get him in that round or the next.
Hmmm - just plain dumb you said. Could have taken him later you said. read the above quote.
And next time dont play the man, respond to what i wrote, which was you had no evidence that we could have taken him later. On the contrary Quixote has stated that there were four other clubs keen to take him in that round or the next, well before pick 55 which was our next pick.
Now instead of insulting me and my credentials on football, which BTW you have no idea about, you can either give us the information that you have that these clubs were not going to draft Howard before pick 55 or just state that you calling JB's decision dumb just your uniformed opinion.
You infer your football background is more extrensive than mine. It may well be, and you must congratulate yourself every day on your expertise, especially when you are on a football forum, but that is not the issue.
You football credentials are not in Beveridges league, you made statement that have been shown to be false and I would wager that beveridge would know more about the drafting process than you ever would.
Now this may hurt, but you have been found out. No point in attacking me, come up with your indisputable evidence to state that Beveridge was wrong.
If you dont or attack me personally I will take it that you have none and have been talking through supposition and nothing elses.
Balls in your court mate.
_________________
A fanatic cant change his mind and wont change the subject - Winston Churchill
Back to top
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 7400
Location: Happy as a Pig In Mud with RL as coach Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 2:20pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Highly rated youngsters....
What does the rating mean??...and where does it come from....???
Basically it is just a consenus of speculation from those that like to guess. Nothing wrong with that as it is a lot of fun......
The actaul AFL recuiters keep there cards close to their chest and do not really say anything but the obvious.
Those that publish ratings here, at bigfooty, in the press etc etc....all do so from the basis of having seen a few players...but not all.
If you (that is a generic you by the way before anyone takes offence) have not looked at all players....in detail...then how can you with authority rate them???
Even Kevin Sheehan, the AFL Talent Manager who knows a great deal, only knows a slice of the pie....but at least with him as he is neautral you get some interesting, honest and unbiased information and rankings.
Each clubs seraches and sifts....and the top 10 or so become pretty obvious (though the order is not...) but after that it gets less and less obvious and each and every clubs list of selections would inceasingly diverge....in part due to what players they have looked at and when, in part due to diiferent people looking....and in part due to different needs of each club.
Howard looks high at 27...but then as the Saints liked him (as a few other clubs did too) they would have devoted more resources into assessing him....in part helped by having ex-saints as his coach.
Allen looks cheap at 55...
You win some you lose some. JB has done his job if on balance his selections over time are better than other AFL club selections.
How good JB has been...only he and a select few at the Saints know...as he advises others who make the final call....and it is known that they have no always followed his advice and his rankings.
The fact that JB is still there (part time now as he eases his way into retirement) after so many many years is to me clear evidence that he knows his stuff.
I suspect that there are quite a number of ex-Saint coaches that wish that they had gone with JB's rankings rather than their own.
Would I be game to make a call after only a few praccie games that JB called it wrong with Army, Howard or Allen??? Not I.
PS... I enjoy the lead up to trade week as much as anyone...as it is enjoyable make your own speculations.
_________________
2007..at last our Heaven!!!
Back to top
nicko016
Club Player
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 447 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 4:46pm Post subject:
________________________________________
I think JB's has a good record. It's questionable what control he has over picking up recycled players in the Draft and PSD so he can't be criticised too harshly because of that. What he has a lot of control over he's done well. The players picked at the ends of drafts are picked there for a reason and if you can get one out of three to turn into a solid player you've done well and we've got a few.
We haven't done very well out of rookies over the past but until now we've only been able pick two or three which makes it much harder. There haven't been to many early picks he's squandered and the one's people have questioned mainly X and Raph could still prove to have a lot of upside. I'm full of support for JB.
_________________
Back to top
BallBanger
Club Player
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 270 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 5:12pm Post subject:
________________________________________joffaboy wrote:quote="BallBanger"]
joffaboy wrote:
BallBanger wrote:
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
Quixote wrote:
Contrary, Beveridge was reported stating that the Dogs, Cats and Dons were keen to get him in that round or the next.
Hmmm - just plain dumb you said. Could have taken him later you said. read the above quote.
And next time dont play the man, respond to what i wrote, which was you had no evidence that we could have taken him later. On the contrary Quixote has stated that there were four other clubs keen to take him in that round or the next, well before pick 55 which was our next pick.
Now instead of insulting me and my credentials on football, which BTW you have no idea about, you can either give us the information that you have that these clubs were not going to draft Howard before pick 55 or just state that you calling JB's decision dumb just your uniformed opinion.
You infer your football background is more extrensive than mine. It may well be, and you must congratulate yourself every day on your expertise, especially when you are on a football forum, but that is not the issue.
You football credentials are not in Beveridges league, you made statement that have been shown to be false and I would wager that beveridge would know more about the drafting process than you ever would.
Now this may hurt, but you have been found out. No point in attacking me, come up with your indisputable evidence to state that Beveridge was wrong.
If you dont or attack me personally I will take it that you have none and have been talking through supposition and nothing elses.
Balls in your court mate.
My credentials are reasonable but I don't pat myself on the back just laugh at your comments and all indications are that you lack knowledge of all degrees....
You still have no idea on where i was coming from....not shocked by this but will not argue with an ignorant misinformed gentleman like your self....
Just 1 last question - do you find yourself constantly arguing against some of the more astute forumites (of course i'm not in this bracket) eg StMart?
Back to top
joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 5095 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 6:28pm Post subject:
________________________________________
BallBanger wrote:
My credentials are reasonable but I don't pat myself on the back just laugh at your comments and all indications are that you lack knowledge of all degrees....
You still have no idea on where i was comming from....not shocked by this but will not argue with an ignorant misinformed gentleman like your self....
Just 1 last question - do you find yourself constantly arguing against some of the more astute forumites (of course i'm not in this bracket) eg StMart?
Just asked you to verify that Howard could have been taken later. As you continue to attack me for this question I take it you have no answer.
Instead of answering a simple question you continue to attack me. Pretty pathetic effort from you.
Keep patting yourself on the back mate. I am sure the rest of the internet community is very impressed with your opinion and your unparrallelled football knowledge.
Now one last time because apart from the obvious deflection of you playing the man and not the ball, please show all of us lesser football brain the evidence that Howard could have still been available at pick 55 when it has been suggested by a memeber here that Beveridge said that he had information that four other clubs were interested in Howard in that round or the next.
As i said instead of attacking me and deflecting from the question, just answer it.
Are you capable of doing that?
As for arguing with astute members of the forum. No i dont, I have had times where i have disagreed with st.mart, but I have openly stated that i admire st.marts contributions and his opinion and will continue to do so. And lets not be coy here ballbanger, with your attempt to deflect from the question by belittling me, you consider yourself one of the astute football "brains" here as well
Do try and fool anyone mate, it was plainly obvious what you were trying to do.
1) You attempted to smear Beveridge by calling his decision "plain dumb"
2) When challenged that this was your opinion only, and thet you had no evidence to corrroborate this smear, you attempted to deflect and attack me
3) When I showed a quote from another poster who posted that Beveridge relayed that four clubs were interested in Howard before pick 55 and said you had been found out, you again attempted to attack me and tried to bring posters i respect like St.mart into the argument (For your own reason i am sure).
Its Ok to be embarrassed when you are shown up as not being as "astute" as you put it, as you think you are Its OK mate, not too many people are laughing at you. All you need to do to prove your smear is to come up with the evidence that you knew more on draft day about who wanted who than John Beveridge did.
Really not to much to ask for someone with your football knowledge. After all JB's decision was just plain dumb wasn't it?, so it must be easy to refute.
Answer please.
_________________
A fanatic cant change his mind and wont change the subject - Winston Churchill
Back to top
BallBanger
Club Player
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 270 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 9:07pm Post subject:
________________________________________
FFS joffa I feel like i'm talking to a boy....i have only read your first 2 lines and was getting a headache...so i'm only going to respond to that 1st question.
I did not say howard would have been avail at pick 57..what i did say (it does not matter if i said it or not) if howard was rated by jb at 26 and dickSmith was rated 27 then why did he not take dickSmith??? only rated one behind...then he could have taken howard at #57 - 2 for the price of 1 (Magic). or if footscray took him (contrary to what you said (reports were bulldogs were at best going to rookie him))
then we only miss someone who was rated 27 but get someone he rated 28. Now the plus side of getting 2 guys for the price of one against missing 1rating should have been chanced....i hope the same people do not play cards.
Wasting my time aren't i
Back to top
Teflon
SS Life Member
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 3063 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 10:09pm Post subject:
________________________________________
BallBanger wrote:
Drafting Howard at 27 was just dumb...no other words to describe it. Could have had a highly rated youngster and taken Howard later on...I hope he turns out to be as good as we rated him in the draft but no need to take him that high...did I mention foolhardy/reckless/hasty?
Also, as we are all looking for excuses injuries/newCoach etc etc (with reason) it must be hurting our membership..to offer something more would be good rationale.
Id agree - its not about whether Howard turns out to be a star its about maximising your opportunities -IF (and none of us know who was gonna take what next from any other clubs) the opportunity was there to take a more fancied talent and grab Howard later we should have IMO.
Regardless the club made its call with more intelligence at close quarters than we have.....in them we must trust....but you do get the feeling they may have been blinded with the speed thing......
_________________
Robert Harvey - "The Return Of The King"
Back to top
evertonfc
Club Coach
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 937 Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 10:34pm Post subject:
________________________________________
I've made it clear on this forum that I was less than impressed with JB's decision to 'scratch an itch' to try and pull a swifty and pick Howard at 27.
A lot of people think he's a recruiting genius - I'm not sure about that. I think he's been good, and he's had quite a few hits, but just as many misses.
He's staked a lot on taking Howard so very, very high. I don't know why he did it, and a lot of people are saying the same thing when the talent which went after him (Collard, Houli, Morton, Thomas, Connors, Krakeour, Petterd etc) looked really strong. Not all those kids will make it, but I'm willing to say I think Howard will end in the bottom half of that lot.
I hope I am very, very wrong and he becomes the player Fiora was scheduled to be, but never delivered.
Let's hope JB knows something the rest of us didn't.
(Yes, I am still filthy about the call...I just struggle with bad decision making, especially when you make a speculative thing like the draft even more speculative by taking an unknown with a high pick. That's all.)
stinger
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 5948
Location: saints territory Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 10:49pm Post subject:
________________________________________
Dan Warna wrote:
it could be a mental issue?
I remember a young HF called tim allen who was too good for the seconds and choked every time he was in the seniors, got picked by the hawks and cats after us.
TONNES of talent, used to tear up the in the magoos, owned CHF, was real leadership material, superb mark, massive kick, quick on and off the ball.
put in the seniors, he used to muff chest marks, play on into trouble, miss set shots from 10m out etc etc.
I would say if bevo thought howard was the goods, then he has the talent, I think its too early to judge a player now.
I remember when people were saying trade kosi, reiwoldt (YES REIWOLDT!!!! when he was out injured that first year) wringing their hands at the drafting of ball, thought dal santo was nothing much and were hoping we could get a round 2 or 3 draft pick for Maguire.
Give howard a fair chance IMO. Bevo hasn't set us wrong much over the years.
and you haven't even mentioned the sh!t put on bj......
_________________
Grant Thomas, you WILL NOT be forgotten.
THE SAINTS ARE COMING
Strength through loyalty
Back to top
HarveysDeciple
SSFFL Coach
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 5808
Location: Gippsland Posted: Sun 04 Mar 2007 11:34pm Post subject:
________________________________________
just a quick one everton.....how did you come to the conclusion that Collard and co were better players then Howard?
Just because they were rated higher in the media does that make them more worthy selections?
_________________
Box on Sainters!!
Back to top
joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 5095 Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 8:47am Post subject:
________________________________________
BallBanger wrote:
FFS joffa I feel like i'm talking to a boy....i have only read your first 2 lines and was getting a headache...so i'm only going to respond to that 1st question.
I did not say howard would have been avail at pick 57..what i did say (it does not matter if i said it or not) if howard was rated by jb at 26 and dickSmith was rated 27 then why did he not take dickSmith??? only rated one behind...then he could have taken howard at #57 - 2 for the price of 1 (Magic). or if footscray took him (contrary to what you said (reports were bulldogs were at best going to rookie him))
then we only miss someone who was rated 27 but get someone he rated 28. Now the plus side of getting 2 guys for the price of one against missing 1rating should have been chanced....i hope the same people do not play cards.
Wasting my time aren't i
No you are just not answering the question just attacking me again.
Are you incapable of defending the "just plain dumb" commnet you made or are you just full of bluff and bluster.
I'll make it very simple for you. In JB's professional opinion Howard was a required player for what the Saints needed in a recruit and would not have been there when pick # 55 came about.
Now in your amateur, ignorant, and totally dismissive and reply your simplistic OPINION that this choice was just plain duumb because again in your opinion there were other rated better than Howard. You have not named one, mabye in a years time with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight you may be able to name one or two, but on draft day that was John Beveridge's opinion of what the Saints required.
My original premis was that your attempt to smear Beveridge in your original post was that it was not based on anything but your ignorant opinion and that i would take the judgement of a professional like Beveridge over some flog who sprouts his great football credentials on an internet forum.
Mate you were found out, you wont nswer the original question because quite simply you cant. You made a fool of yourself and decided to attack me, bring in names of other posters I respect (unlike you and your blatherings)like st.mart who at least had the courage to name a few player who he thought should have been taken befor Howard (and who knows he may well be right, but this is not about that is it).
You ego must be like lake Eyre, a mile wide and an inch deep. Just admit to yourself that you are an ignoramous comparted to beveridge and that your abuse of him was based on your own inflated beleifs in your "astute" football brain.
Pathetic response from a bloke caught out and exposed. Sorry mate.
_________________
A fanatic cant change his mind and wont change the subject - Winston Churchill
Back to top
Beekay
SSFFL Coach
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 1992
Location: Nimbin. Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 9:05am Post subject:
________________________________________
cwrcyn wrote:
We seem to have this expectation that they're all just going to look like seasoned footballers from the start. And you'll find in every draft many players who look to have the goods and are highly rated just never kicking on and making the grade. Just because some guy writes a phantom draft and ranks a player in a certain range each year means nothing.
Well said.
_________________
TIMOTHY BLOODY WATSON, YOU WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN.
RIX RIX KIX THROUGH THE STIX
ROX RUX 4 EVA
Back to top
samoht
Club Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Victoria Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 9:33am Post subject:
________________________________________
joffaboy you're missing the point.
If as ballbanger said there was a chance of a 2 for 1, and most people believe there was, then we had every chance of picking up another more highly rated player, depriving another team of getting an almost certain good kid and then picking up Howard anyway.
Howard himself was surprised at being drafted that high.
We should have finally drafted a pacy, half forward flanker type in my opinion, to offset our predictable forward line, a position we havent been able to get right with Bevo as our recruiter, then pick up Howard later on.
_________________
Back to top
cowboy18
SS Hall of Fame
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 2055
Location: Moooooving on. Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 9:41am Post subject:
________________________________________
samoht wrote:
joffaboy you're missing the point.
If as ballbanger said there was a chance of a 2 for 1, and most people believe there was, then we had every chance of picking up another more highly rated player, depriving another team of getting an almost certain good kid and then picking up Howard anyway.
I'm not sure he is - one main point is that unless the other 15 teams come out and say that they wouldn't take Howard before 55 it is just speculation on our behalf. Whilst it may be reasonably informed speculation (or not ) Beveridge has an obligation to suggest choosing the next best player that fits our needs. Second guessing draft choices by the other teams is fraught with error.
It's like the strategies espoused some time ago on how we could have had Judd and Ball instead of Ball and X (under some theory that WA teams will commit to players from there rather than victorians). Fun to speculate but hard to get right on the day - too many things beyond our control.
_________________
I like this thread.
Back to top
samoht
Club Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Victoria Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 9:47am Post subject:
________________________________________
cowboy18 wrote:
samoht wrote:
joffaboy you're missing the point.
If as ballbanger said there was a chance of a 2 for 1, and most people believe there was, then we had every chance of picking up another more highly rated player, depriving another team of getting an almost certain good kid and then picking up Howard anyway.
I'm not sure he is - one main point is that unless the other 15 teams come out and say that they wouldn't take Howard before 55 it is just speculation on our behalf. Whilst it may be reasonably informed speculation (or not ) Beveridge has an obligation to suggest choosing the next best player that fits our needs. Second guessing draft choices by the other teams is fraught with error.
It's like the strategies espoused some time ago on how we could have had Judd and Ball instead of Ball and X (under some theory that WA teams will commit to players from there rather than victorians). Fun to speculate but hard to get right on the day - too many things beyond our control.
The consensus is he was picked up too high and even Howard himself was surprised.
It's a percentage game, you play your percentages to gain an advantage.
This is not to say Howard wont blossom, by the way, but we could have had our try for a talented, pacy half forward higher pick first, then picked up Howard anyway.
The next best player that meets our needs is probably a pacy half forward flanker.
I dont think we would have missed out on Howard and what I suggest is playing the percentages in our favour and addressing an immediate team need (pacy hff), which remains unaddressed.
_________________
Last edited by samoht on Mon 05 Mar 2007 9:59am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
Teflon
SS Life Member
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 3063 Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 9:58am Post subject:
________________________________________
Look we'll never know what decisions were gojng to be made by other clubs etc BUT you can only go on the information given at the time of the draft and from all reports Howards selection so high was a shock and I think what some are saying (and I actually agree with) its about lowering risks - IF Collard, for example, has been touted by a number of good footballing experts to be better than even chance of making it as a good player then you have to at least tust the judgments of "qualified" exponents of the game (no not a guarantee but are there any???)
Many have said Howard looks like an athlete needing to learn to play the game...IF that proves to be true I wouldve preferred we drafted a "player" and taken a punt an athlete becoming a good footballer later.
Lets remember many at the time were saying it was one of the deepest and best drafts ever.......
_________________
Robert Harvey - "The Return Of The King"
Back to top
samoht
Club Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1054
Location: Victoria Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 10:02am Post subject:
________________________________________
Teflon wrote:
Look we'll never know what decisions were gojng to be made by other clubs etc BUT you can only go on the information given at the time of the draft and from all reports Howards selection so high was a shock and I think what some are saying (and I actually agree with) its about lowering risks - IF Collard, for example, has been touted by a number of good footballing experts to be better than even chance of making it as a good player then you have to at least tust the judgments of "qualified" exponents of the game (no not a guarantee but are there any???)
Many have said Howard looks like an athlete needing to learn to play the game...IF that proves to be true I wouldve preferred we drafted a "player" and taken a punt an athlete becoming a good footballer later.
Lets remember many at the time were saying it was one of the deepest and best drafts ever.......
I totally agree.
The thing that concerns me is we could have addressed a team need - we still need a pacy, half forward flanker, and how many years has that been obvious to all but Bevo.
_________________
Back to top
evertonfc
Club Coach
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 937 Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 10:43am Post subject:
________________________________________
HarveysDeciple wrote:
just a quick one everton.....how did you come to the conclusion that Collard and co were better players then Howard?
Just because they were rated higher in the media does that make them more worthy selections?
Hello HD,
Thanks for your reply. I take no notice of what the media says, for obvious reasons.
In my position I get to see a hell of a lot of underage footy, and what I'd seen/have seen from the others allowed me to develop the opinions I hold.
I have to admit I'd only seen 2 junior games of Howard, and they were via tape, but it seems we've wet our pants over this kid because he's reasonably quick. That's all. Like I said, I hope he proves me wrong.
I'm more than allowed to hold the club accountable, however.
Back to top
2007
Club Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 1145
Location: a.k.a. "Oh When the Saints" Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 10:49am Post subject:
________________________________________
If you don't mind me asking .... what do you do everton?
Don't respond if you prefer not to ... that's fine ... just curious.
_________________
Michael S. Gardiner set to shine in 2007.'
RIP barks4eva (RIX ROX RUX)
Back to top
evertonfc
Club Coach
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 937 Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 11:05am Post subject:
________________________________________
2007 wrote:
If you don't mind me asking .... what do you do everton?
Don't respond if you prefer not to ... that's fine ... just curious.
All kinds of wierd and wonderful things
How I get to see junior footy is more through affiliation than direct role, but it's good to see these kids nontheless.
Back to top
yipper
Club Player
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 1860
Location: Gippsland Posted: Mon 05 Mar 2007 11:32am Post subject:
________________________________________
From my perspective - a new coach wants to have a look at his list. And that's exactly what RL is doing now - he is finding out what depth he has in 2007. I would think that our next couple of games will be with cloise to our best list on the park - to get the game plan right and start playing the type of footy that he wants them to play. He should now be getting his team ready for Rd.1.
_________________
Baaa Baaa, we sheep will follow the Lyon now!!
