2010 - My opinion

[St DAC]

I reckon Milney will be in the starting 22 in 2010. For all his faults he is a very good goal assist player, as well as usually kicking a couple himself. AFAIKS we have no comparable player on the list as him.

And TTT, Aker started as a back pocket, then went midfield/forward. He's a better all-round player than Milney (after all, he was an elite midfielder) but he kicks less goals than Milney does.

[saintly]

Why would peak be drafted if he wasn't considered a 22 starter.....why would ross target a back up player with a reasonable pick.....instead of drafting a could be Good'n.....they must believe he can add something to the team - not the list.....he was drafter due to his fitness and speed and ability to chase and apply fwd/frontal pressure and/or run and spread on the turnover.....he will play HF IMO

Milne has had his opportunity to perform in big games for many years and has been found wanting.....his back end of 09 was poor...and his finals series highlighted his ability to handle pressure....he is 29 and will have to earn his spot IMO with some consistency..........has been a great small fwd over his career.....but like Fraser the team might be better off without his inconsistency.....Kosi is next in the sights, but at least he creates a spill

Dempster.....needs to play well to get back in IMO.....is capable, but will need to find a role...

King.....clearly past it as a frontline ruck.....and McEvoy will surely overtake him in 2010.....he must for the future of the Ruck division....he needs to play the first 16 games.....if he runs out of steam, king can be used at the back end of the season.....as the kids body may need a rest.....even more importantly, if Gardy goes down or needs a rest, McEvoy won't have to shoulder the ruck against monsters, Kingy can do the grunt work......the other positive of McEvoy, he can actually take a catch, and can go fwd if Kosi has a run around on the ball........look for Stanley to be a bolter and plat 4-6 games this season..freak athlete.

Raph Clarke - Lovett inclusion will cost him.....he is our weakest link. Lovett will play mid, Gram or Ray will be used across HB to give more rebound.

Ball - Gone unfortunately

Geary.......too good for VFL and quite good in the AFL.....

Armo.....Surely if Ball is gone

Steven Close, expect 10+ games in 2010

did i miss something. who is stephen close?

[sainterjo]

Steven Close, expect 10+ games in 2010

did i miss something. who is stephen close?

Steven... close, expect 10+ games in 2010[/quote]

[BigMart]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned his performance outside of the dome, and against top 8 sides????b
g
BTW - this is not a bash Milne session, he has been a good player, as was Fraser, but like Fraser can and will be replaced and the fwd line will lose a goalkicker and gain another player who will bring the team another dimension......

perhaps the .5 goals Milne coughs up through lack of defensive pressure, his opponent exposing his lack of chasing and running off him or his brain explosions and undisciplined acts will not occur

[Eastern]

I think we really need to look at who our "17-26 players" will be in 2010 to see where our improvement will come from.

Apart from the usual suspects; Raph, Mini, Geary, Eddy, Armo who all have plenty of improvement in them, we need some others to jump up and be noticed; Players like Lynch, Steven, Heyne, Peake, McEvoy and possibly Stanley and a few others have the opportunity to stand up and be noticed in 2010. If this is to occur we will be well placed going into September 2010.

Remember, every club will be looking for 5-10% improvement to catch up to Geelong & St Kilda in 2010. We need to improve by 5-10% to stay ahead of the pack. That improvement is NOT going to come from our top 6-10 players, not much will come from our 7-16 players, it needs to come from underneath (bottom 6 +) !!

[milney044]

I'm not really feeling as though the "Milne has been figured out by better opponents and isn't strong enough to compete against bigger bodies" argument is entirely true. Maybe 2-3 years ago, but not now. In the Grand Final, the biggest game of the year against the toughest opposition, he did NOT have a shocker because his opponent worked him out and out muscled him. He had a shocker because he didn't convert his goals- nothing to do with his opponent at all.

He has beaten the likes of Campbell Brown and Johncock one on one who people perceive as a lot bigger built than Milney. They are comparing to the Milne of about 2003-4. If you look at Milne's arms, they're not that small and his thighs are actually quite solid. He does quite well in a one-on-one situation and is mainy beaten when his opponent is taller and more elite than he is, suprise suprise. People don't realize but this isn't always a disadvantage because it means the opposition is using one of its more talented players on Milne which allows another team mate to be freed up and brought into the game eg. no double tag on Roo because that player is used on Milne.

46 goals from a 29 yo who has apparently been "figured out" is nothing to sneer at and is pretty impressive for a bloke who gets beaten one on one. He only had 1 bag of 5 goals this year which shows a far more consistent and balanced year. It is such a shame that he couldn't convert in his last game of season '09 and i'll be the first to admit it. If Jack Steven can step up and prove to be just as effective for the season as a whole then good luck him and he'll have my full support.

[Eastern]

Statistically, with an average of around 2 goals per game for nearly 200 games suggests that Milney is one of the best small forwards to play the game ...................EVER

I think that people mark him harder because of the position he plays....Small forward is one of the most difficult positions to both play and for fans to get a handle on. Lets not forget that Milney has been able to acheive this at a time when we have had Fraser Gehrig, Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke & Aaron Hammill in the side. That makes his figures even more impressive !!

[Spinner]

Statistically, with an average of around 2 goals per game for nearly 200 games suggests that Milney is one of the best small forwards to play the game ...................EVER

I think that people mark him harder because of the position he plays....Small forward is one of the most difficult positions to both play and for fans to get a handle on. Lets not forget that Milney has been able to acheive this at a time when we have had Fraser Gehrig, Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke & Aaron Hammill in the side. That makes his figures even more impressive !!

Career averages are negligible at the end of a career. Form is a more appropriate yard stick....

But nonetheless, I think Milne has been struggling since he hurt his knee.

[Eastern]

Statistically, with an average of around 2 goals per game for nearly 200 games suggests that Milney is one of the best small forwards to play the game ...................EVER

I think that people mark him harder because of the position he plays....Small forward is one of the most difficult positions to both play and for fans to get a handle on. Lets not forget that Milney has been able to acheive this at a time when we have had Fraser Gehrig, Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke & Aaron Hammill in the side. That makes his figures even more impressive !!

Career averages are negligible at the end of a career. Form is a more appropriate yard stick....

But nonetheless, I think Milne has been struggling since he hurt his knee.

Yeah, but 46 goals from 25 games is pretty close to his career average. His defensive game has improved under Ross too. I also think he is a better "assist" player under Ross too !!

[BigMart]

46 goals.....i'm interested in good games in big games

[Saintersss]

46 goals.....i'm interested in good games in big games

I don't know what you classify as 'big' games, but I just choose the games against quality oponents or close matches.

Round 7 Collingwood - 4 goals.
Round 9 Lions - 3 goals. (If I remember correctly he was the reason we won that matched, kicked 2 goals to put us in front)
Round 10, 11 - Did not play.
Round 12 Carlton - 1 goal, 6 tackles. (While not having a great game in front of the sticks the tackle count shows at least he was a presence in the forward fifty.)
Round 15 Eages (20 point margin) - 4 goals, 4 behinds.
Round 16 Adelaide - 4 goals
Round 17 Dogs - 4 goals
Round 18 Swans (1 point margin) - 1 goal, 5 tackles. (Again at least a decent amount of tackles to show forward 50 pressure)
Round 19 Hawthorn - 3 goals, 5 tackles. (Remembering he played on Campell Brown, who is a much bigger body)
Round 20 Essendon (loss ) - 3 goals

Now for the 'big' games he did not have a impact. (scoreboard wise).
Round 2 Adelaide - 1 goal
Round 6 Dogs - 0 goals
Round 14 Geelong - 1 goal
Round 21 North (loss) - 0 goals

Take that as you will, but it seems to me he's played well in a quite a few close games (North, Lions, Bombers) - Remembering we didn't play in that many close games.
And he has played well against quality oponents (Hawthorn, Adelaide, Collingwood, Dogs, Lions)

[To the top]

A final question to those who are of the opinion that averaging 2 goals a game playing exclusively as a forward pocket transposes to automatic selection for Milne.

Given we have 17 of the 18 picked plus the flexibility we require from the interchange 4, and the final position is in a forward picket between Milne and Hamill, who do you choose?

I know who I would choose.

And the reasons.

[plugger66]

A final question to those who are of the opinion that averaging 2 goals a game playing exclusively as a forward pocket transposes to automatic selection for Milne.

Given we have 17 of the 18 picked plus the flexibility we require from the interchange 4, and the final position is in a forward picket between Milne and Hamill, who do you choose?

I know who I would choose.

And the reasons.

Is hamill coming back? If he is i would pick both of them. By the way who is kicking our 46 goals next season if doesnt play and why didnt we just kick another 46 this year if it just so easy to replace Milne.

[Quixote]

For reasons of team structure and whether you like it or not, Milne's spot in the 22 will be under pressure next year.

Schnieder is ahead of him under Lyon, and Geary, Steven, Lynch, Armitage and co are closing.

[SainterK]

For reasons of team structure and whether you like it or not, Milne's spot in the 22 will be under pressure next year.

Schnieder is ahead of him under Lyon, and Geary, Steven, Lynch, Armitage and co are closing.

Good, I think it's healthy to have spots under pressure. Limits complacency, and makes for inspired training and work ethic.

[bozza1980]

Question.
How did we ever win when T.Lockett was out (and we did)....he averaged 5 goals a game.....he was not replaced by an equal....how did we manage to win???

We didn't do it often. To be fair over the course of his career, we didn't win too many games with him either.

[bozza1980]

For reasons of team structure and whether you like it or not, Milne's spot in the 22 will be under pressure next year.

Schnieder is ahead of him under Lyon, and Geary, Steven, Lynch, Armitage and co are closing.

Ofcourse it is, and it should be.

We aren't going to be strong for long if a 29 year old forward pocket is irreplaceable.

That said, I think we are a better side with him in it and i'd expect him to play close to the full complement of 25 games we play in 2010.

[Zed]

Ross Lyon made 1 thing very clear in 09 - its about playing to the team system / rules over and above individual brilliance. So GOP's will get games over individual stars if they do the team thing eg Robert Eddy & co getting games because they stuck with the "run and spread" philosophy whilst those would couldnt / didnt eg Ball languished in the 2's.

I suspect Peake recruited because his athletic style is well suited to RL's game. Whether he can execute RL's game plan is yet to be seen.

Armo has more talent than many on the list but I suspect he doesnt do enough of the things that RL values - and as a result will be in and out of the team in 2010, whilst guys like Eddy, Dempster, McQ get games because they stick to the team rules .

Does the old adage hold true "a champion team will always beat a team of champions" ? .. lets hope so, because its obvious to me that RL believes its true.

[Eastern]

Ross Lyon made 1 thing very clear in 09 - its about playing to the team system / rules over and above individual brilliance. So GOP's will get games over individual stars if they do the team thing eg Robert Eddy & co getting games because they stuck with the "run and spread" philosophy whilst those would couldnt / didnt eg Ball languished in the 2's.

I suspect Peake recruited because his athletic style is well suited to RL's game. Whether he can execute RL's game plan is yet to be seen.

Armo has more talent than many on the list but I suspect he doesnt do enough of the things that RL values - and as a result will be in and out of the team in 2010, whilst guys like Eddy, Dempster, McQ get games because they stick to the team rules .

Does the old adage hold true "a champion team will always beat a team of champions" ? .. lets hope so, because its obvious to me that RL believes its true.

In another thread someone who suggested that they are reasonably close to Armo also suggested that "The Penny Has Dropped" and Armo has been working on some of what is expected of him whilst he was home on holidays. If true, he could be in for a Breakout Season !!

[SainterK]

Ross Lyon made 1 thing very clear in 09 - its about playing to the team system / rules over and above individual brilliance. So GOP's will get games over individual stars if they do the team thing eg Robert Eddy & co getting games because they stuck with the "run and spread" philosophy whilst those would couldnt / didnt eg Ball languished in the 2's.

I suspect Peake recruited because his athletic style is well suited to RL's game. Whether he can execute RL's game plan is yet to be seen.

Armo has more talent than many on the list but I suspect he doesnt do enough of the things that RL values - and as a result will be in and out of the team in 2010, whilst guys like Eddy, Dempster, McQ get games because they stick to the team rules .

Does the old adage hold true "a champion team will always beat a team of champions" ? .. lets hope so, because its obvious to me that RL believes its true.

In another thread someone who suggested that they are reasonably close to Armo also suggested that "The Penny Has Dropped" and Armo has been working on some of what is expected of him whilst he was home on holidays. If true, he could be in for a Breakout Season !!

That's fantastic, the signs will be evident if this is the case...

[saintbob]

Reckon you're harsh on Milne Mart. Yep he had a stinker of a GF but he wasn't the only small forward to stuff up in that game.
He kicked 46 goals for the year, the best return for any crumber in the comp. Clearly in our best 22 IMO.

Big Mart got it right with his call on Milne, yet another woeful final series!!!!
When will RL and the coaching panel learn that he doesn't travel very well and finals footy is too much for him.

Steven will be a definite inclusion to the starting 22 in 2010

[DWOODROW]

Ross Lyon made 1 thing very clear in 09 - its about playing to the team system / rules over and above individual brilliance. So GOP's will get games over individual stars if they do the team thing eg Robert Eddy & co getting games because they stuck with the "run and spread" philosophy whilst those would couldnt / didnt eg Ball languished in the 2's.

I suspect Peake recruited because his athletic style is well suited to RL's game. Whether he can execute RL's game plan is yet to be seen.

Armo has more talent than many on the list but I suspect he doesnt do enough of the things that RL values - and as a result will be in and out of the team in 2010, whilst guys like Eddy, Dempster, McQ get games because they stick to the team rules .


Does the old adage hold true "a champion team will always beat a team of champions" ? .. lets hope so, because its obvious to me that RL believes its true.

In another thread someone who suggested that they are reasonably close to Armo also suggested that "The Penny Has Dropped" and Armo has been working on some of what is expected of him whilst he was home on holidays. If true, he could be in for a Breakout Season !!

That's fantastic, the signs will be evident if this is the case...

I remember saying his fitness was good and I hoped the Penny would drop for him. In fact that was the last thing I said to him as he got on the plane. Next year the Penny will drop(being 2010). He deserves it and has the talent. Still alot to offer and I for one look forward to the game when he comes out and shows everyone exactly what he is capable of. IT IS COMING.

[To the top]

How many play 200 games as a small forward?

Not many, granted.

But that is because most move on to more significant roles and prosper as mid-fielders.

So is Milne holding up the introduction and progression of a future mid-fielder such as Steven?

And can we afford such a short circuit in our development programme?

[meher baba]

I've only gotten to this excellent thread relatively late in the piece.

It's always striking to see the positive impact on a thread that comes from a strong, thoughtful, serious OP. Well done, BM.

Obviously, when you make a GF and the 22 you select for the day lose by 2 goals (and would have won by a few had they kicked straighter), you don't need to change much at all. To state the bleeding obvious, the only required change is a replacement for Ball.

There seem to be two ways to go in terms of replacing Bally. One is for Armo (or perhaps Geary or Steven) to come straight in for him. The other is for McQualter to move back to the midfield and for the forward line to be restructured somewhat (eg, Lynch or Gwilt coming in as third tall, Milne staying in for now).

I prefer the latter option and would therefore like to see one of Gwilt or Lynch come into the team, along with Lovett, and with Raph to remain in the side for now.

King or McEvoy? Not much in it for mine. I reckon King has another good season in him, but I'm also sure that McEvoy will get plenty of chances to prove his case at AFL level during the season.

So, a 22 for Rd 1 that I would be more than happy to see run out could be something like:

Gilbert Dawson Baker
Fisher Blake Clarke
Goddard Montagna Dal Santo
Schneider Riewoldt Gram
Milne Kosi Gwilt/Lynch

Gardiner Hayes Jones

King McQualter Lovett Ray

OUT Ball, Dempster
IN: Lovett, Gwilt or Lynch

Looks like a pretty powerful line-up to me: more pace, more forward line strength and a better set of midfield rotations off the bench than we had in most games in 2009.

For mine, Raph and Milne would be the players under the most pressure for their places in the early part of the season, from the likes of Peake, Armo, Geary and Steven. Schneider, Ray and McQUalter will also need to work hard to retain their spots. And, of course, McEvoy will pressure King and Gardi.

I would like to think that we could regularly field a 22 that is strong enough for neither Dempster nor Eddy to get a spot in it.

I thought Dempster did ok in the GF (well, at least, better than I expected), but he was treated as a weak link by the Geelong team and he occasionally proved to be one. It's just possible that, if Gwilt had been selected, he might have provided more of a problem for Geelong in terms of running the ball out of defence and also might have taken the 1-2 straight shots on goal that we so desperately needed.

Lke most Saints fans - I'm really hoping that Lynch can step up in 2010. But, if he isn't quite ready, I'd like to think that Gwilt will be used again as third forward. We saw in 2005, and occasionally since, what Gwilt is capable of at his best. It's frustrating that he hasn't recaptured that form since: as a fellow sufferer from asthma, I'm still struck by a lingering feeling that he isn't being used properly. I reckon he's at his best when he is used regularly in 5 minute bursts, with the aim of physically challenging his direct opponent from the outset. As an asthmatic, he can't be expected to have the motor to run around chasing down and crowding opponents in the way that the likes of Dempster and Eddy play.

Anyway, having completed this post, I'm feeling far more optimistic about 2010 than I did when I started.

I know that there are many of the Football Manager gamer brigade on here who are fixated on the fact that three former star players have gone for the collective gain of a low 3rd round draft pick but, when you look objectively at the top 28 or so players we now have, we seem to be going into 2010 in a much stronger position than we finished 2009.

We may be a bit weaker below about #28 on the list than we were this year, but - depending on how injuries play themselves out - that may not matter at all.

[yipper]

Good summation MH, Gwilt does seem to be the one obvious option for our forward line. I might suggest Raph should probably play more forward due to the fact that he is actually a very nice kick. He is big enough and agile enough to play that 3rd forward role and decision making errors he occasionally makes would not be so fatal as they have been!! Maybe Miles can be used up the back half in his place. Armo is a certainty to play Rd 1 I believe. He will play as part of the midfield rotation. We look to now have nice blend of pace, strength and experience in the squad for 2010.