Loyalty????

[Mr Magic]

I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

Maybe it's time for you to re-look at the vision of our 'passionless' players (including Ball) after the siren blew on grand final day.

Im glad you brought that up, that "Ball" moment should be shoved in the face of everyone that has been bagging Ball since,
and only backs up my point that forumites here have changed their allegiance from the players to the suits.
You get canned for backing the players as "messiah" worshipping,
but now it is the Coach and Board we must plead allegiance to.

Nobody is telling you to do anything of the sort.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

You want to 'blame' the Club - go right ahead.
BUt I, and obviously some others, don't share your (or the OP's) opinion on this.
Why does that make us necessarily wrong, or passionless.

And why should the 'Ball moment be shoved in the faces'?
It is patently obvious that Ball's management were negotiating with Collingwood well before the 'moment' occured. Geez, Denham had written at least 2 articles in The Australian weeks before. Do you think he just made those stories up out of thin air?
How does that fit in with your concept of 'loyalty'?

The 'self-righteousness' of some over this matter is simply breathtaking.
The demands for the CLub to show more loyalty to Ball - and yet the fact that his management/agents had been negotiating with another Club (and who knows how many others?) for weeks seems to be conveniently overlooked?
Where was Ball's loyalty to the Club in all of this?
Or isn't he required to show any?

[sunsaint]

And why should the 'Ball moment be shoved in the faces'?
It is patently obvious that Ball's management were negotiating with Collingwood well before the 'moment' occured. Geez, Denham had written at least 2 articles in The Australian weeks before. Do you think he just made those stories up out of thin air?
How does that fit in with your concept of 'loyalty'?

because the post siren moment strikes to the heart of the matter.
The guy bleeds red (white and black) there is no way he wanted to leave the Saints. And while I dont want to focus on this individual in the post '09 washup, I feel the GF game spelt it out in black and white to Ball.
His future at the saints was finished. He is not the first player a coach has lost faith in & will not be the last. But this has all been done to death before, there was media speculation about his future as soon as he was dropped, & I do take exception to anyone talking about contracts as if they know anything about the terms. Where we differ is, I believe the club, just like players out on the ground, is not infallible.
I dont have a problem with Ball's sense of loyalty, his character, or what he brings to a game of footy. And if he stays at the saints I wont have to recant anything.

[Mr Magic]

And why should the 'Ball moment be shoved in the faces'?
It is patently obvious that Ball's management were negotiating with Collingwood well before the 'moment' occured. Geez, Denham had written at least 2 articles in The Australian weeks before. Do you think he just made those stories up out of thin air?
How does that fit in with your concept of 'loyalty'?

because the post siren moment strikes to the heart of the matter.
The guy bleeds red (white and black) there is no way he wanted to leave the Saints. And while I dont want to focus on this individual in the post '09 washup, I feel the GF game spelt it out in black and white to Ball.
His future at the saints was finished. He is not the first player a coach has lost faith in & will not be the last. But this has all been done to death before, there was media speculation about his future as soon as he was dropped, & I do take exception to anyone talking about contracts as if they know anything about the terms. Where we differ is, I believe the club, just like players out on the ground, is not infallible.
I dont have a problem with Ball's sense of loyalty, his character, or what he brings to a game of footy. And if he stays at the saints I wont have to recant anything.

You don't feel the comment I highlighted is a tad hypocritical?
On the basis of pure speculation by you and the OP, you've castigated and pilloried the Club over this issue. You've accused them of disloyalty and then have the temerity to tar all those opposed to your POV with the'they don't know anything' brush.

They're just as informed on the issue as you are, so why are they necessarily wrong and you necessarily correct?

[Milton66]

this time last year forum posters were getting hounded as messiah worshippers for wanting BC.
this year forumites who express criticism and disappointment with the clubs' treatment of players are copping it.

As has been mentioned, StKilda is not a social club, that job has now been turned over to a few select SS forumites, and appearently supporters have to fall in line & cheer the boardroom and the coaches box.
I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

And you reckon I make moronic posts...

On what facts do you base the club's "treatment" of players in all this.

No, we are not a Social Club. So are we passionless?

Tell us... what would you prefer?

Average players be kept out os some sens eof loyalty or a pact they made years ago? Or to make the changes necessary to win a flag?

To signal one's intent to do something special, and to then improve to the point where you can are 2 different things.

All being equal, the players gone have should all have improved on a par, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The trth is that apart from Ball... what have X and Goose given us recently. And yes, they were tragically cut down by injury.

But where do you draw the line?

And as far asthe club loyalty goes...

X took a longer contract. His decision. Based on where he's at the club only saw fit to offer him a 1 year deal.

Ball got 3 years.

Goose, we don't know about what really happened.

I find it odd that some people go on about this, just because they like a player.

Worse still, that players like X and Goose should have been given an opportunity to play this year.

And we talk about loyalty? The coach says tells the players to make the effort and they'll be rewarded. They do, and now the coach has to say sorry mate, but we have to give Goose and X more game time because they all made a pact?

Is that loyalty to the other players who busted their guts to get a game?

If we were at the bottom, then fair enough. But for ffs, we won 22 out of 25 games, and we still need to improve if we want a flag.

Where was the bleeding hearts' support for TS40 when they booed him? Or Fiora, or a few others??

Or does loyalty only apply to "faves"?

End of rant.

[Winmarvellous]

In case you missed it, Ball had just played in a losing GF. Of course he would be gutted. I imagine his reaction would be the same no matter what colour jumper he's wearing. It's what these blokes strive for their entire career. To shove this in peoples faces doesn't really prove much to me. His reaction a few weeks later shows me a whole lot more, whether he's with the Saints next year or not.

[sunsaint]

not hypocritical at all
you will not find a quote from me saying anything about the clubs' loyalty.

I do not have inside knowledge of any contract negotiations or terms, so I wont comment. if you want to use contracts as part of your reasoning to support the club, well, I cant stop you.

If you are saying my point about how this forum has swung from supporting Saints players to the suits, can be classified as castigation and pillory, then yep I am a guilty hypocrite.

[Milton66]

not hypocritical at all
you will not find a quote from me saying anything about the clubs' loyalty.

I do not have inside knowledge of any contract negotiations or terms, so I wont comment. if you want to use contracts as part of your reasoning to support the club, well, I cant stop you.

If you are saying my point about how this forum has swung from supporting Saints players to the suits, can be classified as castigation and pillory, then yep I am a guilty hypocrite.

I don't see it as a black and white argument. That we either support the suits or the players.

And I don't think anyone has said that we should blindly follow the club.

Many of us see it as the club being bigger than the individual, and many of us are old enough to remember the waste that having individuals bigger than the club has brought us in the past.

It's a 2 way street.

No one as I recall has said anything bad about X or Goose, and I think we are almost unanimous that we'd like them to be part of our next flag.

A few people took a swipe at Ball. Doing that without the facts is plain wrong and stupid. Likewise, to lay the blame at the club without the facts is just as stupid.

I don't think it's simple a case of defending the club at all costs. We are however, extremely passionate about our club, and will defend it when baseless allegations are made against it.

All this talk about suits and passionless is crapola of the premium class.

PLayers come and go. It's a fact. It happened to Lockett, Hall, Everitt just to name a few.

The OP rasied the issue of the pact that wa made. So we are entitled to reply with our views.

There's a lot of nice people out in the real world who work extra hours and are terrific.. but still get the sack because they just aren't up to it.

[Shaggy]

MM, Milton, Joffaboy etc are obviously all for what has happened. Maybe they are right.

But Essendon did go from being one of the best ever to ordinary after getting rid of a few players who were not key but were a part of the team some 7 years ago. They are just now recovering.

No question X, Goose and LB are part of our maturing core which respect and play for each other.

IMHO all were outed this year by the club and not the other way around.

I also 100% agree with Fidelus's post.

MM, Milton, Joffaboy should read it again so I quote it for them:

I've held these 3 players in high esteem since thier careers began. My take on their current predicament, though, (and I'd add Max to this group) is that they were all, in their way, stars of a game we no longer play.

Maguire is the classic CHB; strong, mean, dropped off his man to mark the long ball, ran forward aggressively, booming kick.

X the classic freewheeling quarterback; creative, risktaking, fast, talented - but could be a liability when the opposition decided to play through his opponent.

Ball (became) the classic in and under midfielder; strong in close, quick hands, stoppage guru, only knew how to win the hard ball.

Max the classic stopper; mean, blanketting backman, rarely beaten.

Here's the thing - they all play a brand which still has currency at some AFL clubs, but which is no longer enough for us under Lyon. Now the gameplan demands ceaseless running when we have the ball - to create options or drag opponents away from space - and ceaseless running when we don't have it - to make sure that no opponent gets uncontested, unpressured possession.

The plan only works if every player can carry it out.

All of these 4 have struggled with this new non-negotiable requirement either by virtue of their physical capacity, injury or mindset. As a result, others with clearly inferior footballing talent but with the capacity and will to cover the ground are valued more highly.

I'm very sad to see Max, Goose and X go - but I think that this is probably the right call. Goose and X may well find clubs who run a system that does suit what they have to offer and be valuable players there. I'll be rapt if Luke decides to stay but I think the message he's been given is clear; unless he gets his body/mind to the point where he can deliver what is required, he'll ba passed by those who can.?

[Mr Magic]

As has been mentioned, StKilda is not a social club, that job has now been turned over to a few select SS forumites, and appearently supporters have to fall in line & cheer the boardroom and the coaches box.
I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

Sunsaint,
in case you've forgotten, that is your initial contribution to this thread.

You took an almighty sweipe at the Admin of the Club on the basis of what?
Your knowledge of the thought process behind the list decisions that have been made?

And then you have the temerity to deride posters for believing, just like you, without the benefit of any knowledge that the Club makes its decisions for a reason and after deliberating on all the facts.

Why?
Why does your little/no knowledge of the actual happenings make you more correct in this than those with little/no knowledge who view it the complete opposite way?

I'm struggling to understand why you feel your 'guesses' are any more valid than anybody else's?

And please don't misquote rodger/stool - he didn;t claim teh Club was passionless - he claimed he was.
That is totally different to the way you were trying to characterize the way teh Club has reached its decisions. BTW, how do you know that those in charge didn't agonize over the delisting decisions?
Most likely you've just decided, for whatever reasons, that you would prefer it was done in a cold, callous and heartless way so that you can get an opportunity to 'stick the boots into those entrusted with making these decisoins.

As for the 'Club's loyalty' issue, your post was in support of the OP which questioned it directly.
Given that you chose not to distance yourself from that part of the OP, I would have thought it natural that you also supported that view.

Please excuse me if I've misunderstood you on that - but in my defense, I'm not a mind-reader.
And without the clarification from you, then yes your position appears highly hypocritical.

[Mr Magic]

MM, Milton, Joffaboy etc are obviously all for what has happened. Maybe they are right.

But Essendon did go from being one of the best ever to ordinary after getting rid of a few players who were not key but were a part of the team some 7 years ago. They are just now recovering.

No question X, Goose and LB are part of our maturing core which respect and play for each other.

IMHO all were outed this year by the club and not the other way around.

I also 100% agree with Fidelus's post.

MM, Milton, Joffaboy should read it again so I quote it for them:

I've held these 3 players in high esteem since thier careers began. My take on their current predicament, though, (and I'd add Max to this group) is that they were all, in their way, stars of a game we no longer play.

Maguire is the classic CHB; strong, mean, dropped off his man to mark the long ball, ran forward aggressively, booming kick.

X the classic freewheeling quarterback; creative, risktaking, fast, talented - but could be a liability when the opposition decided to play through his opponent.

Ball (became) the classic in and under midfielder; strong in close, quick hands, stoppage guru, only knew how to win the hard ball.

Max the classic stopper; mean, blanketting backman, rarely beaten.

Here's the thing - they all play a brand which still has currency at some AFL clubs, but which is no longer enough for us under Lyon. Now the gameplan demands ceaseless running when we have the ball - to create options or drag opponents away from space - and ceaseless running when we don't have it - to make sure that no opponent gets uncontested, unpressured possession.

The plan only works if every player can carry it out.

All of these 4 have struggled with this new non-negotiable requirement either by virtue of their physical capacity, injury or mindset. As a result, others with clearly inferior footballing talent but with the capacity and will to cover the ground are valued more highly.

I'm very sad to see Max, Goose and X go - but I think that this is probably the right call. Goose and X may well find clubs who run a system that does suit what they have to offer and be valuable players there. I'll be rapt if Luke decides to stay but I think the message he's been given is clear; unless he gets his body/mind to the point where he can deliver what is required, he'll ba passed by those who can.?

Shaggy,
I can't speak for the others, I can only speak on my own behalf.
I too am saddened by the departures of Max, X and Goose - all great clubmen of the Saints.

BUT
I'm not prepared to characterize the Club in general and Lyon with his football department specifically, as 'villains' like some are attempting to do by posting their emotional rantings.
None of us on here know the real circumstances surrounding these departures. Fidelus is probably close to the mark, but again it is only an educated guess on his part.

I take no issue with people posting their dismay at some of their favourite players leaving the Saints, but to portray it in the manner that they have is, IMO, just plain wrong.

These decisions are not black/white as is being portrayed by some.

I have no doubt that long and probably often heated discussions have been held on the best way for the list to be shaped. Those in charge of these decisions are only interested in giving the best list possible to those who are planning our assault on next years premiership. For those posters to totally ignore the physical capabilities of those who have departed in favour of their 'great clubman/fabric of the Club' attributes is, IMO, deceptive and mischievous.

And in the Ball case, to totally ignore the probability that his manager (at the very least) has been negotiating with Collingwood and then bemoan his apparent 'mistreatment' by un-named coaching/fitness staff is pure folly (again IMO).
Nobody on here has the knowledge of why Ball was dropped or played the minutes he did when he was reinstated in the senior team. Yet they 'jump' on any tidbit throwawy cryptic line uttered by his manager as justification for their pillorying of Lyon and the Club.
Why?

I welcome reasoned debate on these matters, but I bemoan the emotional claptrap that is being posted by some.

And that doesn't make me emotionless about the Saints.
Far from it.
But I'm also capable of understanding that sometimes hard decisions have to be made by those paid to make them.
I may not necessarily agree with them on the face of it, but who am I to argue their merit from afar. Like most of the rest of us I don't have knowledge of all the facts.
All I know is what the media tells us, and who knows how accurate that is?
Is that enough to categorically aportion blame and villify one party over another?
Not in my book.

[PJ]

The guy bleeds red (white and black) there is no way he wanted to leave the Saints.

followed by

I do take exception to anyone talking about contracts as if they know anything about the terms.

followed by

not hypocritical at all

[SainterK]

Bigmart, why do you make mention of Zac and Raph in particular? They are two of our younger players that should not really be compared yet with those that have had a good 5 years longer in the system.

What annoys me, is that the club never seems to be able to win. To much sentiment, or not enough....is there no middle ground?

BTW, I would love to see everyone's reaction in say 5 years, after handling our list management with a sympathetic view, and window shut?

[saint66au]

Bigmart, why do you make mention of Zac and Raph in particular? They are two of our younger players that should not really be compared yet with those that have had a good 5 years longer in the system.

What annoys me, is that the club never seems to be able to win. To much sentiment, or not enough....is there no middle ground?

BTW, I would love to see everyone's reaction in say 5 years, after handling our list management with a sympathetic view, and window shut?

Yep well said

Theres also far too much "anyone can see" and "its obvious to anyone with a clue"-type statements when in actuality no-one on this Forum has the slightest clue (outside of 3rd hand rumours and supposition) whats going on.

[Milton66]

MM, Milton, Joffaboy etc are obviously all for what has happened. Maybe they are right.

But Essendon did go from being one of the best ever to ordinary after getting rid of a few players who were not key but were a part of the team some 7 years ago. They are just now recovering.

No question X, Goose and LB are part of our maturing core which respect and play for each other.

IMHO all were outed this year by the club and not the other way around.

I also 100% agree with Fidelus's post.

MM, Milton, Joffaboy should read it again so I quote it for them:

I've held these 3 players in high esteem since thier careers began. My take on their current predicament, though, (and I'd add Max to this group) is that they were all, in their way, stars of a game we no longer play.

Maguire is the classic CHB; strong, mean, dropped off his man to mark the long ball, ran forward aggressively, booming kick.

X the classic freewheeling quarterback; creative, risktaking, fast, talented - but could be a liability when the opposition decided to play through his opponent.

Ball (became) the classic in and under midfielder; strong in close, quick hands, stoppage guru, only knew how to win the hard ball.

Max the classic stopper; mean, blanketting backman, rarely beaten.

Here's the thing - they all play a brand which still has currency at some AFL clubs, but which is no longer enough for us under Lyon. Now the gameplan demands ceaseless running when we have the ball - to create options or drag opponents away from space - and ceaseless running when we don't have it - to make sure that no opponent gets uncontested, unpressured possession.

The plan only works if every player can carry it out.

All of these 4 have struggled with this new non-negotiable requirement either by virtue of their physical capacity, injury or mindset. As a result, others with clearly inferior footballing talent but with the capacity and will to cover the ground are valued more highly.

I'm very sad to see Max, Goose and X go - but I think that this is probably the right call. Goose and X may well find clubs who run a system that does suit what they have to offer and be valuable players there. I'll be rapt if Luke decides to stay but I think the message he's been given is clear; unless he gets his body/mind to the point where he can deliver what is required, he'll ba passed by those who can.?

All valid points Shaggy.

I still fail to see what the argument is. My standing all along has been that as sad as things are, hard decisions will, and have been made in pursuit of excellence.

As far as the game style goes... it's the epitomy of the "team" ethos. Everyone contributes.

Now, if you are implementing a style which you believe will win you a flag, then you will have to make personell changes until you can find the right combo to execute that plan. I thought that would be obvious.

Max, Goose and Co all have talent, but it appears they are unsuited to the current requirements.

Once again, this is al speculation because e do not have the facts or medical records of each player.

Are we arguing that these should should play because of their loyalty? Even if they are unsuitable?

Or perhaps we leave them on the list because they are loyal, and let them waste away at Sandy?

[stinger]

this time last year forum posters were getting hounded as messiah worshippers for wanting BC.
this year forumites who express criticism and disappointment with the clubs' treatment of players are copping it.

As has been mentioned, StKilda is not a social club, that job has now been turned over to a few select SS forumites, and appearently supporters have to fall in line & cheer the boardroom and the coaches box.
I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

spot on...

[stinger]

From what I know.....Andrew Lovett is a moron, and Brett Peake also has discipline issues......do not compare them to 3 great people.....they will never show the courage and commitment that Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke and Matt Maguire showed in the Red White and Black.....All three committed deeds in their respective careers that one can only respect, none of those players shirked an issues or backed down from adversity (that they all faced).....Luke Ball was my favourite player because he constantly put his body (head) on the line for his team.....X never got to show the full array of his talent unfortunately (i gaurantee he will at Brisbane they have put faith in him)..... and Goose has come back from a horrific break....it was always gonna take time.....

Embracing mediocrity.......not sure any of those people are mediocre....as footballers or people....

And Zac Dawson/CJ
He has to back up from last year, and improve under pressure before I put them in the same category

another excellent post....although i think you are being a tad hard on lovell...still...there are now players at st kilda for reasons other than anybody thinking they are fine young role models or possess outstanding personal character traits........

[chook23]

From what I know.....Andrew Lovett is a moron, and Brett Peake also has discipline issues......do not compare them to 3 great people.....they will never show the courage and commitment that Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke and Matt Maguire showed in the Red White and Black.....All three committed deeds in their respective careers that one can only respect, none of those players shirked an issues or backed down from adversity (that they all faced).....Luke Ball was my favourite player because he constantly put his body (head) on the line for his team.....X never got to show the full array of his talent unfortunately (i gaurantee he will at Brisbane they have put faith in him)..... and Goose has come back from a horrific break....it was always gonna take time.....

Embracing mediocrity.......not sure any of those people are mediocre....as footballers or people....

And Zac Dawson/CJ
He has to back up from last year, and improve under pressure before I put them in the same category

another excellent post....although i think you are being a tad hard on lovell...still...there are now players at st kilda for reasons other than anybody thinking they are fine young role models or possess outstanding personal character traits........

And there wasn't any before either recent or in past!!!

Now one is questioning the character/role model of the 3 Ball, Maguire and clarke

just purely in football terms a decision on players....in particular
Maguire severley impacted by injury.....yes has come back and taken time to produce mediocre footy AT VFL LEVEL.........a judgement made

X.........given an extra year by another club..............X saw it as a new fresh start........club may well have assisted him here.

Ball...............

Coaching staff/list managers whilst making pure football decisions (ability/development/peak impact reached) are also influenced by salary cap etc

the football dept has made some calls so have the players concerned.

Agree that Ball/Maguire/X appeared to be of good character that has not been impacted by injury but playing at their best has been.

[stinger]

If you are saying my point about how this forum has swung from supporting Saints players to the suits, can be classified as castigation and pillory, then yep I am a guilty hypocrite.

funny thing is...that those posters now slavishly supporting the suits at the expense of the players, were the very same posters who castigated thomas...and are still doing so......to my mind there are none so blind as those that refuse to see.......

[stinger]

And there wasn't any before either recent or in past!!!

well there were until thomas cleared out most of them ...with a couple still earmarked to get the flick...only thomas was flicked first......we now have several who would not have got past the doorman if thomas was still running the place.....good thing or bad thing..??.who knows...not me.....

[Milton66]

From what I know.....Andrew Lovett is a moron, and Brett Peake also has discipline issues......do not compare them to 3 great people.....they will never show the courage and commitment that Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke and Matt Maguire showed in the Red White and Black.....All three committed deeds in their respective careers that one can only respect, none of those players shirked an issues or backed down from adversity (that they all faced).....Luke Ball was my favourite player because he constantly put his body (head) on the line for his team.....X never got to show the full array of his talent unfortunately (i gaurantee he will at Brisbane they have put faith in him)..... and Goose has come back from a horrific break....it was always gonna take time.....

Embracing mediocrity.......not sure any of those people are mediocre....as footballers or people....

And Zac Dawson/CJ
He has to back up from last year, and improve under pressure before I put them in the same category

another excellent post....although i think you are being a tad hard on lovell...still...there are now players at st kilda for reasons other than anybody thinking they are fine young role models or possess outstanding personal character traits........

And there wasn't any before either recent or in past!!!

Now one is questioning the character/role model of the 3 Ball, Maguire and clarke

just purely in football terms a decision on players....in particular
Maguire severley impacted by injury.....yes has come back and taken time to produce mediocre footy AT VFL LEVEL.........a judgement made

X.........given an extra year by another club..............X saw it as a new fresh start........club may well have assisted him here.

Ball...............

Coaching staff/list managers whilst making pure football decisions (ability/development/peak impact reached) are also influenced by salary cap etc

the football dept has made some calls so have the players concerned.

Agree that Ball/Maguire/X appeared to be of good character that has not been impacted by injury but playing at their best has been.

Good post Chook.

What amazes me is that many of the posters who bleat on about club loyalty are same ones that bag players.

So in their eyes, the club must remain loyal to the players that SS posters believe are good, and cut others. Is that it?

Goose's form did not warrant a call up. Now a decision would have to be made if he's required on the list, or if someone else would be more useful.

I thought it would be simple logic.

[stinger]

gawd there is some crap posted on here which the unthinking amongst us seem to accept as fact...just like the crap written in the daily rags......

...now we are supposed to believe that goose was a hack.. a past it journeyman..
..what utter rubbish....but ......

. you don't have to take my word for it....just accept what the coach has stated on the public record....that is, that goose's form was good enough for him to earn a recall for the hawthorn game....that is...before he did his hammy and threw the whole plan into disarray....now that is the truth...not the rubbish some are trying to ram down our throats.....

[joffaboy]

Good post Chook.

What amazes me is that many of the posters who bleat on about club loyalty are same ones that bag players.

So in their eyes, the club must remain loyal to the players that SS posters believe are good, and cut others. Is that it?

Goose's form did not warrant a call up. Now a decision would have to be made if he's required on the list, or if someone else would be more useful.

I thought it would be simple logic.

Why would it be logical M66?

You are either TOTALLY with the players or totally with the club on this one according to some on here

There can be no common ground according to some. The players who are favourites to many are angels and the club is the villian. To others the players are money hungry and have no loyalty.

Futile to argue with this type of infantile nonsense. Apparently even when you post you are dissapointed a player has been delisted or traded but can see the clubs POV - you are a club apologist and aren't passionate about the club.

Others pull out that these players were HEROES and then specifically pick on two of the younger players and deride them.

Just give up M66. There is no grey areas in this arguement. You are either with me or agin me according to the luminaries.

[chook23]

gawd there is some crap posted on here which the unthinking amongst us seem to accept as fact...just like the crap written in the daily rags......

...now we are supposed to believe that goose was a hack.. a past it journeyman..
..what utter rubbish....but ......

. you don't have to take my word for it....just accept what the coach has stated on the public record....that is, that goose's form was good enough for him to earn a recall for the hawthorn game....that is...before he did his hammy and threw the hole plan into disarray....now that is the truth...not the rubbish some are trying to ram down our throats.....

did the seven out (injury/rest?) help that possible call......I would think so

if it was not for that Matt would not have been considered.......

did it through a whole plan into disarray....I don't think so but you do.

Matt's overall form was average in the vfl.

the amount of changes for that Hawks game meant he was a likely starter before the hammy.

questioning his ability to reach afl level again does not mean I would just describe him as hack or past it jorneyman.....because the 2nd does not apply...........

a player impacted by injury.........but a hack?? ...some may see a similarity in describing that sort of afl player.

[saintnick12]

[quote="joffaboy

Futile to argue with this type of infantile nonsense. Apparently even when you post you are dissapointed a player has been delisted or traded but can see the clubs POV - you are a club apologist and aren't passionate about the club.

.[/quote]

I agree that too many on here are seeing this as a black and white issue, which it is not. I agree you can be disappointed in a player being delisted but still understand the clubs point of view and the "bigger picture". I certainly feel this way as my previous posts have attested. I'm as big a Goose fan as there is going around, but I understand the clubs thinking on this. While I was hoping against hope that he might get another year, I can see why this decision has been made and accept the clubs decision to make it. Doesn't stop me being sad and a little upset, but certainly not to an extent that I will be bagging the club. Because deep down I know it was an acceptable call to make. They paid him for three years after the injury...its not like he was shipped out the following week. And realistically his chances of being more than an insurance player were not high....I was just hoping selfishly that he would still be around the club..but for his own sake, I will be happy for him if he gets a chance elsewhere, just sad its not with us.

There may be those who say that this point of view lacks passion for the club, but they are wrong. I will never allow anyone to question my passion for the club.....and I would never presume to question theirs...no matter what their opinion...

[stinger]

gawd there is some crap posted on here which the unthinking amongst us seem to accept as fact...just like the crap written in the daily rags......

...now we are supposed to believe that goose was a hack.. a past it journeyman..
..what utter rubbish....but ......

. you don't have to take my word for it....just accept what the coach has stated on the public record....that is, that goose's form was good enough for him to earn a recall for the hawthorn game....that is...before he did his hammy and threw the hole plan into disarray....now that is the truth...not the rubbish some are trying to ram down our throats.....

did the seven out (injury/rest?) help that possible call......I would think so

if it was not for that Matt would not have been considered.......

did it through a whole plan into disarray....I don't think so but you do.

Matt's overall form was average in the vfl.

the amount of changes for that Hawks game meant he was a likely starter before the hammy.

questioning his ability to reach afl level again does not mean I would just describe him as hack or past it jorneyman.....because the 2nd does not apply...........

a player impacted by injury.........but a hack?? ...some may see a similarity in describing that sort of afl player.

i wasn't referring to you.....