Loyalty????

[stinger]

to sainter k......is the pope a catholic???

[SainterK]

...whilst far less talented footballers were given dream runs in the firsts....


they are just not my thoughts...they are shared by most journos in melbourne...ffs....don't believe me..?.ask one of them....anyone....

Far less talented footballers?? SOunds to me like your having a crack at our selection policy eh? That the match committee dont know what they are doing?

Ask a journo eh? Funny how they are bottom-feeding scum when it suits your argument (normally if they dare say anything bad about the team) but now they are the font of all knowledge??

funny you are not......i'm just re-inforcing the simple plain fact...that some of you appear incapable of absorbing, that the st kilda football club is not blameless in the ball affair and that it is not always right or fair with selections or delistings....but i acknowledge that those decisions are for the club to make...


yeah..i'm having a crack at selection policy if that is the way you want this thread to go......along with 3/4 of the melbourne football following public......dempster should not have been selected in the grand final.....


and during the year an opportunity should have been found for x and goose to get a game....


and how about you play the post and not the poster for a change...i get a bit tired of your sly digs.....

I wish you would elaborate on how the club has been unfair, and how exactly they are to blame, because I personally do not allow myself to be influenced by the likes of a Jon Ralph or a Caroline Wilson....

If you know something that is not gleaned from the media, I wish you would share it...otherwise you cannot say the supporters are unwilling to absorb something that we have no knowlege of.

As for your selection view, no point saying Dempster shouldn't have played if you are not prepared to offer an alternative and reason why?

[stinger]

dempster had poor form going into the finals ...

[ace]

to sainter k......is the pope a caholic???

Caholic (n), an alcoholic catholic.


He is certainly not a saint, not even a mature aged rookie.

[Mr Magic]

dempster had poor form going into the finals ...

And Ball's last couple of games for Sandy were not good enough to demand his elevation to the seniors.

So the Selection/Match Committee obviously make decisions not just on 'form'.
Why?
I suggest that very few on here (including you and I) would actually know the real reasons. We might surmise what they are, but we don't actually know for certain.

As for media reports and views from other Clubs' supporters.
How the F*** would other supporters have a clue what is actually going on?
They get their information from the media reports - most of which appear to have been 'leaked' by someone from either Paul Connors organization or the Ball Family/Camp and surely cannot be treated as either totally factual or without bias. They are designed to put their side of the argument in the most favourable light, whilst St Kilda needs to be painted in teh most unfavourable light. That they have media whores willing to do their 'dirty work' for them is a sad indictment on journalism.
What happened to just sourcing the whole story and reporting the truth?
Are tehy so worried about being 'scooped' that they run to report anything they hear?
Although I do notice the Denham has started to 'back-peddle' on the 'Saints are to blame for the Deal not getting done' slant.
Over the past couple of weeks he's started laying the blame correctly at Collingwood's door for not being fair dinkum in trade negotiations. Maybe his 'conscience' has finally found it's way to the forefront of his thought processes?

And here's an interesting thought
Anybody seen or heard a single Saints player/official say anything about the Ball situation, other than the comments by Lyon after the trade week deadline passed?

I find it very suggestive that not a single public comment has been made.
Nobody at the Club apparently feels so 'outraged' by the 'dastardly dealings if the Club' to publicly share any feelings of the 'fabric being torn'.

Plenty of comments from those outside the Club (including us supporters) who seemingly have little or no real knowledge of what transpired.

[Spinner]

Im just pissed - Where ever the fault lies.

I rated Maguire.

I rated X.

And I still shake my head when I think of Ball wanting to leave - WTF we just played in a grand final.


Overall it all just pisses me off. But thats how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

[Mr Magic]

Im just pissed - Where ever the fault lies.

I rated Maguire.

I rated X.

And I still shake my head when I think of Ball wanting to leave - WTF we just played in a grand final.


Overall it all just pisses me off. But thats how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

Yep, but sometimes it's easier to accept if you can find a 'bad guy' to blame for the decisions.

[Spinner]

And here's an interesting thought
Anybody seen or heard a single Saints player/official say anything about the Ball situation, other than the comments by Lyon after the trade week deadline passed?

I find it very suggestive that not a single public comment has been made.
Nobody at the Club apparently feels so 'outraged' by the 'dastardly dealings if the Club' to publicly share any feelings of the 'fabric being torn'.

Plenty of comments from those outside the Club (including us supporters) who seemingly have little or no real knowledge of what transpired.

Was just thinking that. Gee we have remained tightlipped.....On other things too!

[Mr Magic]

And here's an interesting thought
Anybody seen or heard a single Saints player/official say anything about the Ball situation, other than the comments by Lyon after the trade week deadline passed?

I find it very suggestive that not a single public comment has been made.
Nobody at the Club apparently feels so 'outraged' by the 'dastardly dealings if the Club' to publicly share any feelings of the 'fabric being torn'.

Plenty of comments from those outside the Club (including us supporters) who seemingly have little or no real knowledge of what transpired.

Was just thinking that. Gee we have remained tightlipped.....On other
things too!

Maybe a sign of 'discipline to get the job done' by most at the Club?

[PJ]

Pretty sad really when you read a bunch of grown ups crying about their heroes being sold down the river buy the evil oppressive management who only have their own personal and financial interests ay heart.

You want a definition of hero how about a player that was ridiculed and discarded publicly by his club only to stand up when the chance arose and play in a grand final.

Here's another a player that was over looked by his states AFL teams as not having the skills or endeavour necessary to make it at the level that went on to demenstrate enormous heart, guts and work rate that made him top 50 in the AFL

Then there's the player that overcame serious illness and affliction to participate at the top level despite constant criticism from those that should have been supporting him.

Yes you're right the hacks above should have been shown the door for the silver spoon draft picks that obviously deserve unquestioned entry to any team after all we are St.Kilda home of the over blown ego-driven individuals with a culture that can't cut it.

If you want to believe in all that the media write then go buy a ticket to the movies at least the outcomes predictable.

[Winmarvellous]

While I'm sad to see Goose go, he was obviously not the same player he was before he broke his leg. It sucks, but that's life. X was lucky to stay on the park for half a season in a good year. Ball has been cruelled by injury too and can no longer run and kick like he used to. All, bar Goose, chose not to accept the contract offered. While it would have been nice to accomodate all parties involved, in the majority of trade dealings one club shafts another. We did the right thing by X in allowing him to go to Brisbane, but rightfully chose not to accomodate COLLINGWOOD in the Ball affair. Why we would hand over a player who started in our GF team to a fellow top 4 aspirant for less than WE think he's worth, I really can't fathom.

While it's sad to see Goose go, that's football. Injury is a by-product of the game. Much like a construction worker who loses his finger, he's compensated accordingly. Goose had a fair bit of time to get right, and will probably still get a spot on another list, at the very least at VFL level. The worker will never be the same, but can still survive. So will Goose.

[Bernard Shakey]

Goose has injuries that he will never recover from, as a footballer.

Ball also has injury concerns and a manager who has no idea.

X unfortunately also has injury problems and has decided there are better opportunities in Brisbane.

These blokes moving on (I hope Ball stays) are for the betterment of the players and our club.

[Milan Faletic]

Pretty sad really when you read a bunch of grown ups crying about their heroes being sold down the river buy the evil oppressive management who only have their own personal and financial interests ay heart.

You want a definition of hero how about a player that was ridiculed and discarded publicly by his club only to stand up when the chance arose and play in a grand final.

Here's another a player that was over looked by his states AFL teams as not having the skills or endeavour necessary to make it at the level that went on to demenstrate enormous heart, guts and work rate that made him top 50 in the AFL

Then there's the player that overcame serious illness and affliction to participate at the top level despite constant criticism from those that should have been supporting him.

Yes you're right the hacks above should have been shown the door for the silver spoon draft picks that obviously deserve unquestioned entry to any team after all we are St.Kilda home of the over blown ego-driven individuals with a culture that can't cut it.

If you want to believe in all that the media write then go buy a ticket to the movies at least the outcomes predictable.

Fantastic post. I have read between the lines and highlighted the important paragraph. I think we all know who you are talking about. he has support where it counts. The coaching staff.

[sunsaint]

this time last year forum posters were getting hounded as messiah worshippers for wanting BC.
this year forumites who express criticism and disappointment with the clubs' treatment of players are copping it.

As has been mentioned, StKilda is not a social club, that job has now been turned over to a few select SS forumites, and appearently supporters have to fall in line & cheer the boardroom and the coaches box.
I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

[Solar]

this time last year forum posters were getting hounded as messiah worshippers for wanting BC.
this year forumites who express criticism and disappointment with the clubs' treatment of players are copping it.

As has been mentioned, StKilda is not a social club, that job has now been turned over to a few select SS forumites, and appearently supporters have to fall in line & cheer the boardroom and the coaches box.
I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

Not so

But making emotional "they are cutting out the fabric of the club" comments is a little childish when you look a little closer.

X was given a contract but brisbane chased him and we helped him get to brisbane. This is loyal to the player.

Ball was offered a 3 year deal, he started to shop himself around at the start of the finals. Tell me who is loyal?

Goose was given a contract two/three years ago when he broke his leg. He has not looked the same and the decision was a well thought out one. Right or not? We shall see but dumping a guy after breaking his leg would be disloyal. Delisting a guy that looks like he will never get back to the highest level, thats list management.

In all respect, the OP is a pretty silly post.

[Mr Magic]

I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

Maybe it's time for you to re-look at the vision of our 'passionless' players (including Ball) after the siren blew on grand final day.

[BigMart]

From what I know.....Andrew Lovett is a moron, and Brett Peake also has discipline issues......do not compare them to 3 great people.....they will never show the courage and commitment that Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke and Matt Maguire showed in the Red White and Black.....All three committed deeds in their respective careers that one can only respect, none of those players shirked an issues or backed down from adversity (that they all faced).....Luke Ball was my favourite player because he constantly put his body (head) on the line for his team.....X never got to show the full array of his talent unfortunately (i gaurantee he will at Brisbane they have put faith in him)..... and Goose has come back from a horrific break....it was always gonna take time.....

Embracing mediocrity.......not sure any of those people are mediocre....as footballers or people....

And Zac Dawson/CJ
He has to back up from last year, and improve under pressure before I put them in the same category

[saintbrat]

Loyalty

Loyalty also means devotion, dependent. and honest to one person or thing.

was the supreme moral good, and that one's devotion to an object mattered more than the merits of the object itself.

1. the state or quality of being loyal; faithfulness to commitments or obligations.
2. faithful adherence to a sovereign, government, leader, cause, etc.

It is constituted centrally by perseverance in an association to which a person has become intrinsically committed.

All the
Loyalty from the Club to the player
Loyalty from the player to his teammates
Loyalty from the player to the club
Loyalty from the club to it's members.

because the members demand Loyalty from the club and the players- we want them to get us the ultimate prize- we want the players to stick with us- and yes we do take it personally when they don't and yes we react with distress when when they don't wish to be there

the club is being loyal to it's members by doing its very best to get that prize
the club is using Honesty in it's loyalty to players, no false promises-
players to show loyalty each and every week and year... But in truth they must be loyal to themselves first and then to their teammates and then to the club..

in reality I have gone past the distress of hearing of favoured players moving on and am almost at the point of being comfortable with them First being Happy and able to work to the best of their ability...

...... and hoping that is with the Saints BUT if not may they be comfortable with their choices. or those that have been thrust upon them due to the Clubs commitment to it's members- the ultimate prize


and so it goes around and around...

[Moods]

Ball wanted to leave...still not resolved


Goose WAS a good player..
.

sorry i deleleted the x cpmment...


ball was screwed over...everyone outside the club acknowledges that....one eyed supportets excepted.....


,,,goose was promised a one year contract...or at least led to believe that one was on the table....


...x was starved of opportunity and was made to play in the vfl where he received a career threatening injury...whilst far less talented footballers were given dream runs in the firsts....


they are just not my thoughts...they are shared by most journos in melbourne...ffs....don't believe me..?.ask one of them....anyone....

Far less talented footballers were given dream runs, and the team went on to win a record amount of games for the season....

WE must have had the best list in the league by a country mile with all those guns forced to play seconds and those hacks in the seniors riding on the coat tails of Roo, Lenny, Joey and BJ..... and still the team was winning games comfortably......

[BigMart]

Ben Cousins was good this year at Richmond, would have helped us win a flag.....point please.....he did not fail at tigerland....


Ball got nearly 40 possesions in the VFL in his second game and was BOG

Geary was the unlucky one 37 possesions and 3 goals in the VFL, and averaged 17 touches a game and was a rising star.....he had a better year than both R.Clarke and Dempster....

And the heroes that are spoke of

Raph and Zac had Grand Finals they would rather forget....under the pump, both have a ways to go....

Max is a St.Kilda HERO
Nick Riewoldt is a St.K HERO
Lenny is a St.K HERO
Rob Harvey is a St.K HERO

NOT Dawson and Raph

[Moods]

Ben Cousins was good this year at Richmond, would have helped us win a flag.....point please.....he did not fail at tigerland....


Ball got nearly 40 possesions in the VFL in his second game and was BOG

Geary was the unlucky one 37 possesions and 3 goals in the VFL, and averaged 17 touches a game and was a rising star.....he had a better year than both R.Clarke and Dempster....

And the heroes that are spoke of

Raph and Zac had Grand Finals they would rather forget....under the pump, both have a ways to go....

Max is a St.Kilda HERO
Nick Riewoldt is a St.K HERO
Lenny is a St.K HERO
Rob Harvey is a St.K HERO

NOT Dawson and Raph

How did Ben Cousins get thrown into the argument??

Who's speaking of Raph and Zac as heroes? I agree re Raph's GF, however in our 2nd biggest game of the year (the week before) he played great.

Zac made only 2 crucial errors in the GF imo. Both resulted in goals unfortunately (even though one was clearly a point) THe other was allowing Mooney to mark in the goal square in the 3rd quarter. Apart from this I thought he was fine in the GF.

Depends who you want to believe re Ball getting 40 possessions in the magoos. PLenty who were at the game have said that it was more like 25 possessions, but was reported as 40. Maybe Ball's old man was doing the stats?

I agree about Geary - thought he was a bit stiff not to get a look in in the finals. However think you'll find that much of the selection emphasis after Rd 14 came as a result of the actual game in Rd14. Geary was poor in that game - under the pump (in your words) As was Ball

[joffaboy]

Pretty sad really when you read a bunch of grown ups crying about their heroes being sold down the river buy the evil oppressive management who only have their own personal and financial interests ay heart.

You want a definition of hero how about a player that was ridiculed and discarded publicly by his club only to stand up when the chance arose and play in a grand final.

Here's another a player that was over looked by his states AFL teams as not having the skills or endeavour necessary to make it at the level that went on to demenstrate enormous heart, guts and work rate that made him top 50 in the AFL

Then there's the player that overcame serious illness and affliction to participate at the top level despite constant criticism from those that should have been supporting him.

Yes you're right the hacks above should have been shown the door for the silver spoon draft picks that obviously deserve unquestioned entry to any team after all we are St.Kilda home of the over blown ego-driven individuals with a culture that can't cut it.

If you want to believe in all that the media write then go buy a ticket to the movies at least the outcomes predictable.

What a post.

Really encapsulates the issue.

And I find it interesting how suddenly Ben Cousins has made an appearance for the case for the defence when the thread was about Ball X and Goose.

Also love the definitive statement Ben Cousins WOULD have won us the flag. Dont you love an unprovable hypothetical stated as FACT?

So Lovett is a moron (according to the OP) and Peake is no good either compared to the GREAT PEOPLE that Ball X and Gooses are.

Mabye we should get Ghandi and Mandela to kit up for us next year if that is the criteria

I couldn't care less what some poster on an internet forum "thinks" about the relitive merits of one platyers character or not - irrelevant to an argument where the OP questions the "fabric of the club" being torn assunder by the administration when it is a FACT absolute FACT that two of the three player CHOSE TO LEAVE.

Doesn't matter what excuses or emotive crap that is put forward FACT is

1) X was offered a contract
2) Ball was offered a contract

Goose was the only one delisted and I am extremely dissapointed to see this happen but hey - as we ALL found out in the GF - footy is a bastard.

So cut out the emotive rubbish trying to blame the club for all this. At the same time it is not the players fault completely either - especially Goose.

As pj said it is a bit embarrassing for a bunch of middle aged men crying about footballers leaving their club (considering Luke Ball may hopefully still be staying).

And opposed to some on here - I will wholeheartedly support Andrew Lovett and Brett peake while in Saints colours despite the insults thrown at them by some on here.

.

[saintnick12]

Pretty sad really when you read a bunch of grown ups crying about their heroes being sold down the river buy the evil oppressive management who only have their own personal and financial interests ay heart.

You want a definition of hero how about a player that was ridiculed and discarded publicly by his club only to stand up when the chance arose and play in a grand final.
Here's another a player that was over looked by his states AFL teams as not having the skills or endeavour necessary to make it at the level that went on to demenstrate enormous heart, guts and work rate that made him top 50 in the AFL

Then there's the player that overcame serious illness and affliction to participate at the top level despite constant criticism from those that should have been supporting him.

Yes you're right the hacks above should have been shown the door for the silver spoon draft picks that obviously deserve unquestioned entry to any team after all we are St.Kilda home of the over blown ego-driven individuals with a culture that can't cut it.

If you want to believe in all that the media write then go buy a ticket to the movies at least the outcomes predictable.

Great post.

The funny thing is, when I first read it, it wasn't Zac that first came to my mind re the part in bold. Farren Ray, Michael Gardiner, and to a lesser extent Steven King could also fit into this. (also thought of Raph who is constantly publicly ridiculed by our own supporters...he must be made of strong stuff).

Of course we all love our home grown stars. Its great watching our top draft picks grow into the stars we all knew they would be..especially when they have a few issues along the way...eg Dal, BJ. But I love the underdog too...and CJ and Zac have been favourites in my household this year for the very reasons you described above. Its a shame they have to work doubly hard to earn the respect they deserve. Zac in particluar has paid the price for displacing a favourite son. Every full back makes a couple of mistakes a game....otherwise the opposition would never score. The one where the ball ended up hitting the post looked pretty bad I agree, but at least his two big errors in the game were made taking on the play, which is what is asked of him. For gods sake, but for a very lucky bounce in the centre of the ground, he could have won us the game. I guess in a way I cheer extra loudly for these guys cos I know they get a raw deal from even our own supporters which is pretty sad I reckon. If they continue to improve the way they have...the sky's the limit.

[Fidelis]

I've held these 3 players in high esteem since thier careers began. My take on their current predicament, though, (and I'd add Max to this group) is that they were all, in their way, stars of a game we no longer play.

Maguire is the classic CHB; strong, mean, dropped off his man to mark the long ball, ran forward aggressively, booming kick.

X the classic freewheeling quarterback; creative, risktaking, fast, talented - but could be a liability when the opposition decided to play through his opponent.

Ball (became) the classic in and under midfielder; strong in close, quick hands, stoppage guru, only knew how to win the hard ball.

Max the classic stopper; mean, blanketting backman, rarely beaten.

Here's the thing - they all play a brand which still has currency at some AFL clubs, but which is no longer enough for us under Lyon. Now the gameplan demands ceaseless running when we have the ball - to create options or drag opponents away from space - and ceaseless running when we don't have it - to make sure that no opponent gets uncontested, unpressured possession.

The plan only works if every player can carry it out.

All of these 4 have struggled with this new non-negotiable requirement either by virtue of their physical capacity, injury or mindset. As a result, others with clearly inferior footballing talent but with the capacity and will to cover the ground are valued more highly.

I'm very sad to see Max, Goose and X go - but I think that this is probably the right call. Goose and X may well find clubs who run a system that does suit what they have to offer and be valuable players there. I'll be rapt if Luke decides to stay but I think the message he's been given is clear; unless he gets his body/mind to the point where he can deliver what is required, he'll ba passed by those who can.

[sunsaint]

I think this might be the passionless StKilda RF has been eluding to.

Maybe it's time for you to re-look at the vision of our 'passionless' players (including Ball) after the siren blew on grand final day.

Im glad you brought that up, that "Ball" moment should be shoved in the face of everyone that has been bagging Ball since,
and only backs up my point that forumites here have changed their allegiance from the players to the suits.
You get canned for backing the players as "messiah" worshipping,
but now it is the Coach and Board we must plead allegiance to.