Dean Greig on Raph and Luke

[saint75]

Raph-bashing Radio...SEN

Getting a little old now isn't it? Surely people have better things to with their time...??

[redwhite&blackblood]

Dean Greig doesn't strike me as one of the most intelligent people walking this earth. Yes he played AFL but that counts for little since he more interested in the rough stuff than the ball (which was footy back in the day). In todays AFL Greig would never get a senior game he would give away too many frees and be a liability to his club.

Raph has better skills than Greig ever had and decision making would be a close call. Unfortunately due to the constant bashing in public forums (particularly SEN - Slightly Entertaining Network) Raph has lost confidence in himself to realize the levels he could attain. With some positive feedback and confidence boosting he could reach his potential in 2010.

I would suggest that almost everyone in the club would rate Grieg's opinions as garbage.

[redwhite&blackblood]

Anyone find it odd that Raph gets a bashing anywhere and anytime by his clubs fans yet a flog like Alan Toovey from the Pies never gets mentioned for being as crap as he is by the fans of Wobblewood?

[jonesy]

I thought Raph became serviceable in the latter part of the year. In a Jason Blake kind of way.

Unfortunatly,for the majority of his career before this most of his games were howlers,so peoples minds are now set, even when he was ok they are not won over,there minds made up, and unless he starts playing like he did in the 08 finals campaign on a regular basis,he's going to be stuck with this tag.

[Milton66]

So what if RL rang Ball?

Maybe he was trying to fire him up?

[Middo]

As a very good ex player he has a right to his opinion Solar and some credibility IMO...you obviously don't agree and thats your right as well.

Its not a bulls*** opinion its just an opinion

Can't people have one re team selections without being regarded as divisive or even worse.... a racist

Wonder if he's a member ???? ......or should he just shut up !

[Beej]

He like Dal and Milne seem to have acceoted that they needed to improve according to teh coaches and match committee.

Ball seems to have decided on a different path.

I think Ball has chosen the path because he feels it's his only choice.

This is just my opinion, I'm trying to put myself in Ball's shoes...

There is no doubt in my mind now that Ball wants to play for St Kilda. However, 46% game time in a GF when you've played a wonderful first half is a massive smack in the face and it wasn't just the GF.

Throughout the whole year he was given limited game time. Yeah, he could have signed the contract on offer but he wasn't sure if he could continue at a club where he felt he wasn't valued. He wanted to wait and see if things would change - fair enough too - as we've heard many times, he's an extremely proud individual.

Numerous times when quizzed about Ball, Lyon and several players spoke about the level of respect he has within the group. This leads me to believe that Bally himself was questioning it and his teammates and coach going out of their way to mention it was a way of reassuring him that he was mistaken.

Ball, like any self-respecting footballer, wants to play for a coach who he feels values what he brings to the table, and for a player who loves the club, has poured his heart and soul into it, captained it, pushed himself through debilitating injury for it, I can understand where he's coming from.

BUT how can you possibly feel respected and valued if you're not trusted to be involved in more than 50% of a senior game, regardless of how well you're playing? Would anyone here feel like a valued member of the side? No.

Collingwood reportedly offered Ball less money. If true, this tells me money was obviously not an issue. It's about respect and such is the man's pride he's willing to sacrifice everything he's worked for at St Kilda to get the respect he feels he deserves even if that means leaving his best mates and the club he loves.

I have faith in Ross Lyon and the club, but I feel for Ball in all of this. He feels leaving the club is his only option and it's unfortunate that it has come to this.

[Pwoit]

Anyone find it Bazaar that Raph gets a bashing anywhere and anytime by his clubs fans

Anyone find it Bazaar .......... now where is this Bazaar somewhere in the middle east i think.

Try this one - bizarre

[Lennon]

He like Dal and Milne seem to have acceoted that they needed to improve according to teh coaches and match committee.

Ball seems to have decided on a different path.

I think Ball has chosen the path because he feels it's his only choice.

This is just my opinion, I'm trying to put myself in Ball's shoes...

There is no doubt in my mind now that Ball wants to play for St Kilda. However, 46% game time in a GF when you've played a wonderful first half is a massive smack in the face and it wasn't just the GF.

Throughout the whole year he was given limited game time. Yeah, he could have signed the contract on offer but he wasn't sure if he could continue at a club where he felt he wasn't valued. He wanted to wait and see if things would change - fair enough too - as we've heard many times, he's an extremely proud individual.

Numerous times when quizzed about Ball, Lyon and several players spoke about the level of respect he has within the group. This leads me to believe that Bally himself was questioning it and his teammates and coach going out of their way to mention it was a way of reassuring him that he was mistaken.

Ball, like any self-respecting footballer, wants to play for a coach who he feels values what he brings to the table, and for a player who loves the club, has poured his heart and soul into it, captained it, pushed himself through debilitating injury for it, I can understand where he's coming from.

BUT how can you possibly feel respected and valued if you're not trusted to be involved in more than 50% of a senior game, regardless of how well you're playing? Would anyone here feel like a valued member of the side? No.

Collingwood reportedly offered Ball less money. If true, this tells me money was obviously not an issue. It's about respect and such is the man's pride he's willing to sacrifice everything he's worked for at St Kilda to get the respect he feels he deserves even if that means leaving his best mates and the club he loves.

I have faith in Ross Lyon and the club, but I feel for Ball in all of this. He feels leaving the club is his only option and it's unfortunate that it has come to this.

This, plus one other point I want to make.

Luke will mostly like now go into the PSD, and we will get nothing for him.

We declined pick 25 from Collingwood, knowing the alternative was nothing at all.

I don't believe, like some on here, that this was because we wanted to send a message about not being pushed around.

We could have helped a former captain of the club, a man whose given us everything for eight years, to the club of his choice and gotten pick 25 out of it.

Instead we chose nothing and to send a bif F U to Luke Ball.

Nasty stuff from the club. AND nonsensical.

[SENsei]

Agree with Dean Greig's right to an opinion. Have heard it privately many a time. He's entitled to it. He goes over the top. I disagree with some and agree with others.

Someone got it right when they said it was just another Raph basher on SEN. Exactly right. Dean is just another Saints supporter like us all, who can't stand Raph as a player and that's just his opinion.

Just because he played some games for us doesn't make his opinion any more right or wrong.

Just an opinion.

[vacuous space]

Instead we chose nothing and to send a bif F U to Luke Ball.

That's ridiculous. If the Dogs had taken 25 for Everitt, the deal would have been done. We didn't want the pick.

[Mr Magic]

I think I'm going mad.

Can someone please state categorically that they believe:-
Ross Lyon deliberately played Luke Ball 50% or less game time in the GF adn other games becasue he didn't value Ball.

That is what apparently is being alluded to by posters on here in a roundabout way.

I cannot believe that anybody who is rational actually believes that nonsense.

The fitness and medical staff tell the coaches who can play and for how much time they can play.

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

Check out the stats from the beginning of the season.
i'm sure you'll find that his game time gradually decreased as the season wore on because the fitness/medical staff made the determination that he physically wasn't able to play any more.

If people believe that he wasn't being played becasue the Coach didn't like/value him, they are seriously deluded IMO.

[Lennon]

The fitness and medical staff tell the coaches who can play and for how much time they can play.

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

And yet Ross said that not giving him two more bursts was a "mistake".

Whose mistake?

If it was a fitness/medical issue, it could hardly have been called a mistake. If he's not fit to play, he's not fit to play.

Clearly that wasn't the issue.

[redwhite&blackblood]

Anyone find it Bazaar that Raph gets a bashing anywhere and anytime by his clubs fans

Anyone find it Bazaar .......... now where is this Bazaar somewhere in the middle east i think.

Try this one - bizarre

so you never make a spelling mistake???? Like Raph i am human and make errors.

[Mr Magic]

The fitness and medical staff tell the coaches who can play and for how much time they can play.

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

And yet Ross said that not giving him two more bursts was a "mistake".

Whose mistake?

If it was a fitness/medical issue, it could hardly have been called a mistake. If he's not fit to play, he's not fit to play.

Clearly that wasn't the issue.

Why are you trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist.
Do you just dislike Ross Lyon adn find this a convenient thing to have a go at him over?

Lyon clearly stated that in hindsight Ball could have had 2 '6 minute bursts' in the second half. I don't believe he said the word 'more' but most people have assumed that is what he meant.

He clearly also stated that he did not do the rotations, but others did.

Now you are clearly questioning his word.

[joffaboy]

I won't go into all of the details of the Raph comments but let's say they
weren't flattering in general.

He did say his efforts against the Dogs in the prelim were not up to scratch.
The GF neither as they were all loose possesions and handballs in front into trouble.

Credibility of opinion completely shot right here.

If it wasn't for Raph in the 4th quarter we woulsn't have even made the GF.

But this little fact is convienently forgotten by the Raph haters and bashers.

As solar said - if I was Raph I would have asked to be traded considering the belittling and pure hate spewed toward him at every opportunity by these so called Saints supporters.

And SEN are just the champions of Raph bashing with allowances to Finey and Francis Leach who at least put some perspective into the hatred.

[joffaboy]

The fitness and medical staff tell the coaches who can play and for how much time they can play.

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

And yet Ross said that not giving him two more bursts was a "mistake".

Whose mistake?

If it was a fitness/medical issue, it could hardly have been called a mistake. If he's not fit to play, he's not fit to play.

Clearly that wasn't the issue.

Why are you trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist.
Do you just dislike Ross Lyon adn find this a convenient thing to have a go at him over?

Lyon clearly stated that in hindsight Ball could have had 2 '6 minute bursts' in the second half. I don't believe he said the word 'more' but most people have assumed that is what he meant.

He clearly also stated that he did not do the rotations, but others did.

Now you are clearly questioning his word.

More than questioning his word. This is basically saying that Lyon deliberately left Ball on the bench in the GF for personal reasons toward Ball and therefore not coaching in the GF with the full effort that could have resulted in the loss of a flag.

This is the inference and it is slanderous and incredibly infantile and foolish.

[Mr Magic]

The fitness and medical staff tell the coaches who can play and for how much time they can play.

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

And yet Ross said that not giving him two more bursts was a "mistake".

Whose mistake?

If it was a fitness/medical issue, it could hardly have been called a mistake. If he's not fit to play, he's not fit to play.

Clearly that wasn't the issue.

Why are you trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist.
Do you just dislike Ross Lyon adn find this a convenient thing to have a go at him over?

Lyon clearly stated that in hindsight Ball could have had 2 '6 minute bursts' in the second half. I don't believe he said the word 'more' but most people have assumed that is what he meant.

He clearly also stated that he did not do the rotations, but others did.

Now you are clearly questioning his word.

More than questioning his word. This is basically saying that Lyon deliberately left Ball on the bench in the GF for personal reasons toward Ball and therefore not coaching in the GF with the full effort that could have resulted in the loss of a flag.
This is the inference and it is slanderous and incredibly infantile and foolish.

Whilst quite possibly not the posters intent, that's the way I read his/her post.

[The Fireman]

Dean is a good mate of mine and i will say he doesnt like Raph in the team to say the least , He wouldnt have needed a drink to say what he said i can tell you that .
ps , just because you dont like what he said , no need for any smartass legless remarks

I know Dean as well and I fully agree him, he knows his stuff.

[Lennon]

The fitness and medical staff tell the coaches who can play and for how much time they can play.

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

And yet Ross said that not giving him two more bursts was a "mistake".

Whose mistake?

If it was a fitness/medical issue, it could hardly have been called a mistake. If he's not fit to play, he's not fit to play.

Clearly that wasn't the issue.

Why are you trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist.
Do you just dislike Ross Lyon adn find this a convenient thing to have a go at him over?

Lyon clearly stated that in hindsight Ball could have had 2 '6 minute bursts' in the second half. I don't believe he said the word 'more' but most people have assumed that is what he meant.

He clearly also stated that he did not do the rotations, but others did.

Now you are clearly questioning his word.

More than questioning his word. This is basically saying that Lyon deliberately left Ball on the bench in the GF for personal reasons toward Ball and therefore not coaching in the GF with the full effort that could have resulted in the loss of a flag.
This is the inference and it is slanderous and incredibly infantile and foolish.

Whilst quite possibly not the posters intent, that's the way I read his/her post.

FFS.

You, Mr Magic, said, and in reference to Luke getting limited game time in the GF, not just limited game time in general:

Ball was only getting 50% game time becasue the fitness/medical staff determined that was all he could play.

Lyon has since said it was a mistake not to play Ball in the 2nd half.

How can it have been a mistake, if he couldn't play, for medical reasons?

For Lyon to say he should have played him, we can only assume Ball was both fit and willing.

And yet in pointing out the illogicality of your post, now I hate Ross Lyon, and am slandering him.

I do not hate Lyon. I am, however, trying to make sense of a very confusing and frustrating situation (as are we all), and I'm not willing to accept an explanation that doesn't sound plausible, simply because it exonerates the club of any blame.

I'm not saying Lyon deliberately didn't play Luke for no other reason than he doesn't like him.

I don't know why that occurred. Lyon claims it wasn't even his mistake.

The point is, it would have looked like more of the same to Luke. FIt and ready to play, tore it up in the first half, got left on the bench in the 2nd half.

If he had already been questioning whether he was valued at St Kilda, and the mail seems to be that he was, that wouldn't have exactly steadied the ship.

[joffaboy]

[I do not hate Lyon. I am, however, trying to make sense of a very confusing and frustrating situation (as are we all), and I'm not willing to except a explanation that doesn't sound plausible, simply because it exonerates the club of any blame.

I'm not saying Lyon deliberately didn't play Luke for no other reason than he doesn't like him.

I don't know why that occurred. Lyon claims it wasn't even his mistake.

The point is, it would have looked like more of the same to Luke. FIt and ready to play, tore it up in the first half, got left on the bench in the 2nd half.

So the GF was all about Luke Ball individually? he was sitting on the bench with his stopwatch working out the % of time he got?

FFS Eddy or Geary or Armo got 0% playing time in the GF.

All this BS about poor old Luke

Ball was dropped because his fitness levels would not allow him to recover sufficiently to train and play week in week out. The Lyon gameplan is very intensive and Balls body was not fit enough.

Misson put him on a special fitness program to strengthen him during the season with an aim to having a fully fit Ball for the finals.

He played VFL so he would still be match fit but not under the rigours of AFL intensity.

Luke Ball then played in every final - was selected for the GF - started on the ground in the GF and was on and off the bench.

To take the fact that he wasn't played in the 4th qtr as the reason he is leaving is absolutely laughable.

Ball had made up his mind to leave well before the finals. he had rejected a three year deal on the table since June because he thought he was worth more than he was being offered.

His camp than began the leaking proccess - $500k from Collingwood. then after the GF it was for more opportunities - then it was his family were upset - then it was the position was untenable at the Saints.

it smelled like orchestrated spin and BS.

Fact is Luke Ball thought he was worth more than St.Kilda and now the market believes he is actually worth.

It is nothing more than he wants more money?

[saintspremiers]

Raph-bashing Radio...SEN

Getting a little old now isn't it? Surely people have better things to with their time...??

well supposedly you can't defend Raph on SEN, so it's a one-way street!

[Mr Magic]

Why do you accept the version of events that blames St Kilda so easily?

You can dress it up any way you like - you don't believe the Coach or the Club.

Maybe you don't want to believe the CLub?

Here are the facts that are indisputable:-

Collingwood had pick 14
Collingwood had, at least, given an indication to Connors that they wanted Ball and were prepared to pay him around 500k (according to Greg Denham)
Connors and Ball decided not to accept the Saints Contract offer for whatever their reason(s) and told the Club on Tuesday he wants to go to Collingwood.
Collingwood used their only first round draft pick (#14) to secure Jolley (another Connors client).
Whatever player or draft pick St Kilda told Collingwood they would accept was rejected by Collingwood.
Whatever draft pick or player Collingwood offered up was rejected by St Kilda.
It was up to Collingwood to satisfy St Kilda to make this trade happen. Not up to St Kilda to gift Ball to them (in their eyes).

I don't care what reason(s) Ball chose to decide to leave.
I object strenuously when he , his manager and his 'camp' spread BS to denigrate our Club because he didn't get what he wanted and what his manager told him he would get.
The blame for this deal falling apart is solely with Connors and his inablilty to manage all his clients wishes.

It's that simple.

Ross Lyon wanted to win the Premiership as much (if not more) than any of us and to suggest that he deliberately did something to diminish that possibility of winning that premiership to satisfy some personal gneda, then you have rocks in your head.

Look at the facts logicaly. Look at the sequence of events as they took place.
It's not that difficult if you're really interested?

To borrow an expression from Stinger:-
FFS go and talk to people around the Club, especially the players. They'll tell you the truth.

[saint75]

Why do you accept the version of events that blames St Kilda so easily?

You can dress it up any way you like - you don't believe the Coach or the Club.

Maybe you don't want to believe the CLub?

Here are the facts that are indisputable:-

Collingwood had pick 14
Collingwood had, at least, given an indication to Connors that they wanted Ball and were prepared to pay him around 500k (according to Greg Denham)
Connors and Ball decided not to accept the Saints Contract offer for whatever their reason(s) and told the Club on Tuesday he wants to go to Collingwood.
Collingwood used their only first round draft pick (#14) to secure Jolley (another Connors client).
Whatever player or draft pick St Kilda told Collingwood they would accept was rejected by Collingwood.
Whatever draft pick or player Collingwood offered up was rejected by St Kilda.
It was up to Collingwood to satisfy St Kilda to make this trade happen. Not up to St Kilda to gift Ball to them (in their eyes).

I don't care what reason(s) Ball chose to decide to leave.
I object strenuously when he , his manager and his 'camp' spread BS to denigrate our Club because he didn't get what he wanted and what his manager told him he would get.
The blame for this deal falling apart is solely with Connors and his inablilty to manage all his clients wishes.

It's that simple.

Ross Lyon wanted to win the Premiership as much (if not more) than any of us and to suggest that he deliberately did something to diminish that possibility of winning that premiership to satisfy some personal gneda, then you have rocks in your head.

Look at the facts logicaly. Look at the sequence of events as they took place.
It's not that difficult if you're really interested?

To borrow an expression from Stinger:-
FFS go and talk to people around the Club, especially the players. They'll tell you the truth.

Brilliant post! Can't believe some supporters are sucked in and believe that big bad Rossy hurt poor Luke's feelings.......Where is the contempt that should be shown for Luke's manager?

Ross and St Kilda have remained quiet on this topic. It is the Luke Ball camp that has spread all the rumours. St Kilda, even now, are offering Luke a lifeline. FFS, he had a contract on the table FOR FREAKIN' MONTHS!!!! HE chose not to sign it. Fail to see how this is anyone else's fault but his own.

[saintbrat]

Ross and St Kilda have remained quiet on this topic. It is the Luke Ball camp that has spread all the rumours. St Kilda, even now, are offering Luke a lifeline. FFS, he had a contract on the table FOR FREAKIN' MONTHS!!!! HE chose not to sign it. Fail to see how this is anyone else's fault but his own.

thankfully Luke is also remaining quiet

at no point has he come out and validated the "innuendo" about the club