We Need the Truth!!!

[PJ]

I think he actually just said he wouldn't be running for captaincy.

Bottom line Luke is burnt and wants another club where he can start again.

[skeptic]

I still can't reconcile how a player can think it unreasonable that a coach expect certain standards. Conversely, I can't comprehend in the slightest how a player could comprehend it reasonable to expect some sort f guarantee that he'll be first 22 regardless of anything that may occur.

see this is the part I don't agree with.

I don't for a minute believe Luke's issue was that he had to work hard to earn is spot or that he believed is ALWAYS regardless of form should be in the 22.
To me that's silly.

I do however have a suspicious (based on nothing - just my opinion), that he has had a conversation with RL that has made him feel like he doesn't have good prospects at the club.
DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A DIG OR A CRITICISM OF THE COACH. That's not my intent.

But for some reason, Luke has felt the need to get out. I would hazard a guess that RL has said something along the lines of "here's the contract, you need to be realistic to the notion that we think we have several youngsters that can be better than you, and we're going to blood them into your spot so be prepared to spend some time in the 2s".

that's not unreasonable from a club point of view, i can understand why it would make Luke very uneasy though... even if he was offered a 3 year deal

[saint patrick]

i'm sick and tired of hearing
things
from uptight-short sighted-
narrow minded hypocritics


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth


i've had enough of reading
things
by nuerotic-pyschotic-
pig headed politicians


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth


no short haired-yellow bellied
son of tricky dicky
is gonna mother hubbard
soft soap me
with just a pocketful of hope
money for dope
money for rope


i'm sick to death of seeing
things
from tight lipped-
condescending -mommies little
chauvinists


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth


i've had enough of watching
scenes
of schizophrenic - ego - centric
- paranoic - prima - donnas


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth

John Lennon.Imagine.Track 6.

[Mr Magic]

It may not be the truth but here's my take on it

1/ Luke was very close to GT and one of the inner circle that adheared to and endorsed GT's mantra on player work ethic. GT was more of a motivational speaker type coach than a structure guy, when the players were being beaten or coming under pressure he would assert that they the players as individuals had to dig deeper rather than look to team structures to elevate the group

2/ Luke dug deep on many occasions, we all remember the footage of him struggling to stand in the rooms after the game - he went to the well too many times and as a result the OP has ruined many aspects of his play

3/ Lukes great mentor in GT gets sacked - he is guted.

4/ When we changed regimes to Ross all were asked to follow team structures and game plan. The will of the heroic individual was no longer a valued attribute, or rather less valued than that of "team contribution".

5/ Luke has never looked happy under Lyon - it is visible

6/ Luke relies on his guts and determination under the packs to keep his spot but knows he is struggling in other areas (kicking, running). Lyon wants him to work on other areas that involved some of his difficiencies and he gets sent back to the 2's. Demeaning for a club captain and champion but he keeps working on it. At this point it is starting to turn ugly for him and he is feeling unvalued

7/ Luke gets selected for the finals and gives it his all - with limited time. He is devestated at the loss and feels again undervalued as he is not used as the team goes under.

8/ Lyon, in press conference, admits to perhaps under using Luke - it's the last straw. Talks to ppl to get advice and the rest shall we say is history.

Anyway just a stab in the dark from an outside observation

Only 1 problem with this synopsis as I see it.

It doesn't account for the stories leaked to Greg Denham about Collingwood being interested and offering a salary package of 500k. These stories have been reported for weeks - even before the finals when Ball was playing at Sandringham.

IMO there has been a deliberate game going on here. Whether it was designed to up the offer from St Kilda or to actually get him to move I have no real idea.

If it was the former then the plan didn't work becase apparently our offer wasn't raised (notwithstanding the bs put out this week that our offer was greater than Collingwood's).

I have heard that the playing group, certainly the leadership group at least, were genuinely shocked when Ball asked to be traded. If there had been rumblings from Ball I'm sure they would have had an inkling of his discontent.

I jsut think that what we have witnessed this week was a game of negotiation by brinkmanship by Connors that has gotten completely out of hand becasue of teh comments being leaked by Ball's side of the equation.

So out of hand that I fear we have reached an 'untenable situation' (pun intended) and that the fracture is now so great so as to almost make it unresolvable.
I'm sure that the impasse between Ball and coaches/football committee can be solved provided the manamger is kept away, but I think there is genuine anger at Ball from the playing group.

[Thinline]

I still can't reconcile how a player can think it unreasonable that a coach expect certain standards. Conversely, I can't comprehend in the slightest how a player could comprehend it reasonable to expect some sort f guarantee that he'll be first 22 regardless of anything that may occur.

see this is the part I don't agree with.

I don't for a minute believe Luke's issue was that he had to work hard to earn is spot or that he believed is ALWAYS regardless of form should be in the 22.
To me that's silly.

I do however have a suspicious (based on nothing - just my opinion), that he has had a conversation with RL that has made him feel like he doesn't have good prospects at the club.
DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A DIG OR A CRITICISM OF THE COACH. That's not my intent.

But for some reason, Luke has felt the need to get out. I would hazard a guess that RL has said something along the lines of "here's the contract, you need to be realistic to the notion that we think we have several youngsters that can be better than you, and we're going to blood them into your spot so be prepared to spend some time in the 2s".

that's not unreasonable from a club point of view, i can understand why it would make Luke very uneasy though... even if he was offered a 3 year deal

You really think in a professional sport an experienced and smart person would go 'oh, there's young guys coming through therefore I am threatened'. I would have thought anyone of any mettle would say 'I will mentor the new brigade and excel myself while I'm at it, this is after all a team sport.' Particulalrly a leader.

He had THREE freakin years on the table!

You don't offer a player three years if he's gonna spend the greater chunk at Sandy...

Or do you?

Oddness abounds...

[boneless23]

I think a part of it is that as Luke was sitting on the bench in the last quarter of a Grand Final waiting for an oppurtunity, BJ was out there with a broken nose and collarbone.

For an ex- captain and All-Australian, that can't be good for the confidence.

[Mr Magic]

But for some reason, Luke has felt the need to get out. I would hazard a guess that RL has said something along the lines of "here's the contract, you need to be realistic to the notion that we think we have several youngsters that can be better than you, and we're going to blood them into your spot so be prepared to spend some time in the 2s".

that's not unreasonable from a club point of view, i can understand why it would make Luke very uneasy though... even if he was offered a 3 year deal

But isn't the handling of contracts doen by the list management people - Mathew Drain and his team?

Lyon would almost certainly have had discussions about his playing role, strengths and weaknesses, but not about the contract.

[joffaboy]

why do we need the truth?

Go to the AGM and ask instead of acting like some vapid outraged teenager demanding things.

FFS the truth is none of your business.

[boneless23]

why do we need the truth?

Go to the AGM and ask instead of acting like some vapid outraged teenager demanding things.

FFS the truth is none of your business.

You have lost the plot Joffa...these sorts of questions are exactly what internet forums are for.

[PJ]

Only 1 problem with this synopsis as I see it.

It doesn't account for the stories leaked to Greg Denham about Collingwood being interested and offering a salary package of 500k. These stories have been reported for weeks - even before the finals when Ball was playing at Sandringham.

IMO there has been a deliberate game going on here. Whether it was designed to up the offer from St Kilda or to actually get him to move I have no real idea.

If it was the former then the plan didn't work becase apparently our offer wasn't raised (notwithstanding the bs put out this week that our offer was greater than Collingwood's).

I have heard that the playing group, certainly the leadership group at least, were genuinely shocked when Ball asked to be traded. If there had been rumblings from Ball I'm sure they would have had an inkling of his discontent.

I jsut think that what we have witnessed this week was a game of negotiation by brinkmanship by Connors that has gotten completely out of hand becasue of teh comments being leaked by Ball's side of the equation.

So out of hand that I fear we have reached an 'untenable situation' (pun intended) and that the fracture is now so great so as to almost make it unresolvable.
I'm sure that the impasse between Ball and coaches/football committee can be solved provided the manamger is kept away, but I think there is genuine anger at Ball from the playing group.

You're right there is more at play and managers get up to their necks in it. I think he's been well aware of Luke's quandry and perhaps has started a little media speculation to warm the pot. When a high profile player like Luke starts to lose form and his position in the team people or rather the media go into speculation mode and start digging around - I'm sure our man was there to nudge it along. Not gospel just a hunch.

I still think that Luke just doesn't get it with Lyon and would prefer another environment.

[skeptic]

But for some reason, Luke has felt the need to get out. I would hazard a guess that RL has said something along the lines of "here's the contract, you need to be realistic to the notion that we think we have several youngsters that can be better than you, and we're going to blood them into your spot so be prepared to spend some time in the 2s".

that's not unreasonable from a club point of view, i can understand why it would make Luke very uneasy though... even if he was offered a 3 year deal

But isn't the handling of contracts doen by the list management people - Mathew Drain and his team?

Lyon would almost certainly have had discussions about his playing role, strengths and weaknesses, but not about the contract.

I imagine RL would have some input into contracts albeit a minor 1.

He'd have some say into which players he wants to stay at the club long term and which player's spots he'd rather c be reviewed on a more regular basis.

Raph CLarke for example, I doubt would be put on a longer term deal 3-4 year deal at a reasonable base wage whereas Nick Riewoldt, you'd want to sure up much quicker and for longer.



Thinline, what I'm saying is that IMO is gotten reason from the coach to feel uneasy
that's a bit more serious then 'oh i feel threatened as there are others coming through'.

As for the 3 year contract... I'm open to the idea that MAYBE JUST MAYBE, while it was a 3 year contract it may have actually not been that good a deal for him.
Again, I don't claim to know the specifics cause I don't
maybe on a lower wage a Luke Ball would be a handy player to have predominantly playing in the ressies whilst pumping games into Armo, Eddy, Geary ago, rotating Ball in as the situation warrants

[Milan Faletic]

I'm with Moccha. Sex for me.

Now, when you say 'with'....

I would go with his old avatar but please.....not that here is anything wrong with that.

[Milan Faletic]

i'm sick and tired of hearing
things
from uptight-short sighted-
narrow minded hypocritics


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth


i've had enough of reading
things
by nuerotic-pyschotic-
pig headed politicians


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth


no short haired-yellow bellied
son of tricky dicky
is gonna mother hubbard
soft soap me
with just a pocketful of hope
money for dope
money for rope


i'm sick to death of seeing
things
from tight lipped-
condescending -mommies little
chauvinists


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth


i've had enough of watching
scenes
of schizophrenic - ego - centric
- paranoic - prima - donnas


all i want is the truth
just give me some truth

John Lennon.Imagine.Track 6.

Great song. What a blast, Patrick. Love it

[The OtherThommo]

FYI, there are rumours of a major stuff on Ball's part. Emanates from Sandy. Don't know what it is, but they are strong.

[saint75]

Why was Luke Ball dropped in the first place?

Why didn't he sign the 3 year deal?

Why did he nominate only Collingwood as his prefferred destination?

Something happened.....I WANT the truth!!!

This is so unlike Luke Ball.

Will it help you sleep at night? Will it make you feel better?

Seriously, not our business. It just needs to be sorted out.

[Wigsy]

Nice comments Skeptic - I agree with that. A few things have been troubling me about all of this.

Whether we as supporters should just suck it up and wait for the board and the coach to handle behind the scenes or not, I agree with one or two others. Ross doesn't need to send me a letter - I'd just like some clarification on where it all stands. A personalised letter is not necessary, so someone jsut leak it to the media.

I don't quite understand the hold the ground on pick 25 versus recent playing time and the post draft comments that were hardly reassuring. I agree - Ross is the coach and he can do what he likes. He has built a huge amount of cred with me. I'd just like to have some further info. Ross, if you're reading this, text a quick sentence to Herald Scum - that will do. I'm more interested in where he is viewed - is his body seen as shot, game gone past him, jsut a blip and he'll be back next year, a consequence of a very solid line up, a one position player so only 50% game time is inevitable? There are a few answers on here and I thank you guys for those.

[starsign]

It may not be the truth but here's my take on it

1/ Luke was very close to GT and one of the inner circle that adheared to and endorsed GT's mantra on player work ethic. GT was more of a motivational speaker type coach than a structure guy, when the players were being beaten or coming under pressure he would assert that they the players as individuals had to dig deeper rather than look to team structures to elevate the group

2/ Luke dug deep on many occasions, we all remember the footage of him struggling to stand in the rooms after the game - he went to the well too many times and as a result the OP has ruined many aspects of his play

3/ Lukes great mentor in GT gets sacked - he is guted.

4/ When we changed regimes to Ross all were asked to follow team structures and game plan. The will of the heroic individual was no longer a valued attribute, or rather less valued than that of "team contribution".

5/ Luke has never looked happy under Lyon - it is visible

6/ Luke relies on his guts and determination under the packs to keep his spot but knows he is struggling in other areas (kicking, running). Lyon wants him to work on other areas that involved some of his difficiencies and he gets sent back to the 2's. Demeaning for a club captain and champion but he keeps working on it. At this point it is starting to turn ugly for him and he is feeling unvalued

7/ Luke gets selected for the finals and gives it his all - with limited time. He is devestated at the loss and feels again undervalued as he is not used as the team goes under.

8/ Lyon, in press conference, admits to perhaps under using Luke - it's the last straw. Talks to ppl to get advice and the rest shall we say is history.

Anyway just a stab in the dark from an outside observation

good summation from LB perspective PJ

You don't mention any Money factor at all ?

Give us your take from The management/RLs perspective as well . Surely the almighty $ and where they want to go in terms of player payments and salary cap would be a major concern there

[kaos theory]

Nice comments Skeptic - I agree with that. A few things have been troubling me about all of this.

Whether we as supporters should just suck it up and wait for the board and the coach to handle behind the scenes or not, I agree with one or two others. Ross doesn't need to send me a letter - I'd just like some clarification on where it all stands. A personalised letter is not necessary, so someone jsut leak it to the media.

I don't quite understand the hold the ground on pick 25 versus recent playing time and the post draft comments that were hardly reassuring. I agree - Ross is the coach and he can do what he likes. He has built a huge amount of cred with me. I'd just like to have some further info. Ross, if you're reading this, text a quick sentence to Herald Scum - that will do. I'm more interested in where he is viewed - is his body seen as shot, game gone past him, jsut a blip and he'll be back next year, a consequence of a very solid line up, a one position player so only 50% game time is inevitable? There are a few answers on here and I thank you guys for those.

I just do get why people want detailed & precise statements about uncertainties in life.

Its simple: Ball had not been playing up to a level the club was happy with. He got sent to the vfl, he improved slightly, got game time, while not quite a star performer was getting better.

The club offered him a deal, with no certainty of selection, he would need to keep improving, but HE knocked it back and seeked a trade where he thought he had a better opportunity to get a regular game, and more time on the field.

The trade didn't go through, so we are back to square one.

That is it. What more to people want?

FFS, get over it.....Sh!t happens.

We do not need to rake over the entrails of every single conversation & action between Ball & club to find some sinister underlying cause....