No deal with Magpies over Ball, says Lyon

[SuperSaint]

Hey Super Saint........is it spinner or stinger your reply is meant for

Ooops.....sorry should be 'spinner' Thanks for pointing out loris.

[Milton66]

Can someone please clarify exactly how many games in the VFL did Goose actually "star" in?

Maybe clarify how frequently defenders 'star' full stop.

Or a more accurate clarification - Just how often a defenders game gets the credit it deserves......

The point here is that we had a back six that were doing an outstanding job... the stingiest in history. So how can people blame the coach for not playing Goose?

Was Goose playing well enough to get a spot... when for most of the time, even Max couldn't.

According to some, he was "starring". There were players playing better than Goose int he 2's yet still didn't get a game.

What we now have is all this finger pointing and innuendo about players being recruited with less character etc.

I'm open to all suggestions, but let everyone back them up with facts.

It seems that some poeple are still happy (not you) to let the tail wag the dog at this club.

[Eastern]

I saw 1 Sandi game (v Casey) this year and Goose killed em. But then again, everyone killed em that day. Sandi won by around 100 points !!

[Milton66]

?

Ball has a right to go - like any player - but to justify his leaving on supposition and your imagination.

Ball left for more money pure and simple. More game time pfft

Believe that and you believe anything.

are you 100% on that JB - or using supposition and your imagination?
At least stinger's call is based on what we know about luke over a long time frame - a quality person who always gave his best for the club.
personally i think he felt undervalued and no longer seen as leadership material by the coach - and the guy is a natural leader - so naturally wants to go somewhere where he can give more of himself.

i'm more than a little shocked by both the vitriol on here (not including you there) and the willingness to assume the worst of someone we all held in the highest regard (you, and many others).

Sorry but I can't buy the leadership thing. A real leader knows how to lead. I'd say there's probably 8 players in the club who reckon they can lead (see Lenny) but you don't see him leaving, do you?

A true leader WILL give more of himself in the name of the team.

As far as copping the 50% pay cut... I agree that he's just not worth what he was being played.

Sadly, it's not about character here, it's about performance.

There's a lot of decent kids who can't get a game, let alone a payrise. Why? Because of their performance.

So let's not get hung up on this character and leadership thing.

[SainterK]

A few things I would like to bring to the discussion if I may...

Firstly, being dropped to the VFL is not a practice exclusive to RL and St Kilda. It happens all the time, probably every week, to lesser knowns and more well known players at times. I fail to see that because it is implemented at our club, to certain individuals, that it suddenly becomes percieved as persecution?

The players have initiated a "trademark" of which we don't know the full details, but we do know that it is a some kind of review to evaluate a player. Quick as some are to label Ross as the person entirely responsible for some particular players languishing in the VFL, we do know that Gram missed a game this year at the discretion of the leadership group for falling short of this standard.

Finally, the club has a strong culture, where the team is placed higher than the individual. A place where effort and hardwork is rewarded, with the belief that the results will follow.

I am saddened by the news that Luke is leaving, of course I am. He was one of the players I have always held in high esteem. I won't boo him, I won't have a cheap shot at him...

However I support the St Kilda football club, and he has decided to move on...well so will I.

[ctqs]

Maybe he will stay now?

Who knows

Campbell at Richmond in a similar position...............eventually stayed

O'Keefe at swans " ' " ...............eventualy stayed

after both getting heaps from supporters.....

BOTH WENT ON TO WIN B&F

Robert Elphinstone.

[Milton66]

Maybe he will stay now?

Who knows

Campbell at Richmond in a similar position...............eventually stayed

O'Keefe at swans " ' " ...............eventualy stayed

after both getting heaps from supporters.....

BOTH WENT ON TO WIN B&F

Robert Elphinstone.

David Grant.

[skeptic]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.
A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.
Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.
Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

[Milton66]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.
A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.
Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.
Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

since when was following the footy a "rational" passtime?

Speaking for myself, I'm not fussed. His call, and I wish him well. At this stage I reckoned he may have damaged his career. I hope not.

[Teflon]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.
A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.
Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.
Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

IF Ball came back now...cant see it with salary and the fact he nominated a club he wants to play for....BUT IF it happened Id be wrapt. IMHO we have added the run and carry Lyon clearly sees we need....to me someone of Balls in/under character feeding it to these "jets" is what we need....

[CURLY]

N Brown aint that good. What has he done?

Played some very good footy on quality forwards in his first two years. One of the best key defence prospects in the AFL.

Playing on someone and beating them is complety differant to playing on them. Brown was overhyped as most Collingwood players are by the media. Hasnt actually beat anyone OF NOTE.

[Milton66]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.
A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.
Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.
Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

IF Ball came back now...cant see it with salary and the fact he nominated a club he wants to play for....BUT IF it happened Id be wrapt. IMHO we have added the run and carry Lyon clearly sees we need....to me someone of Balls in/under character feeding it to these "jets" is what we need....

According to the club, Ball was req'd, hence the 3 year deal.

Do you think that had he not asked to be traded, we still would have recruited both Lovett and Peake? They are not exactly replacemnts for Ball.

[joffaboy]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

And thats fair enough

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.

Every single player in the League is worried about their place in the team. Remember when someone asked Robert harvey when he thought he had made it in AFL? " Never" was the reply.

A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

So a three year contract wouldn't have extended his career?

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.

Hate is too harsh. More a case of persona non gratia. And if somebody is at the club for other reasons than the team - they should move on. Move on Luke Ball.

Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

How is backing into a pack Loyalty? It is the minimum acceptable at AFL level.
Anyway AFL is a bastard and a hard industry. Players are cut by clubs - players leave.

I actually support the club not any one player.

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.

Why is it stupid. He walked on his mates. He thought he couldn't do what was expected of him and didn't want to try even though the club quite generously offered him three years security.

The players are tight knit and he walks out and then demands to be traded ONLY to one club. Puts demands on the club. This is what has stuck in the craw of many. The good thing is that RL will get the best result for the STKFC and if it doesn't suit Luke Ball - sorry Luke bad luck.

Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

If the coach thinks he is worthy of a spot - I would support him. Not sure about his mates that he has walked out on though.

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

Are you a mind reader? Totally in proportion. I support STKFC and the players. Luke Ball is not a STKFC player - why should I hold any affection for him when his whole future career will be to try and beat the Saints when he can?

[Teflon]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.
A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.
Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.
Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

IF Ball came back now...cant see it with salary and the fact he nominated a club he wants to play for....BUT IF it happened Id be wrapt. IMHO we have added the run and carry Lyon clearly sees we need....to me someone of Balls in/under character feeding it to these "jets" is what we need....

According to the club, Ball was req'd, hence the 3 year deal.

Do you think that had he not asked to be traded, we still would have recruited both Lovett and Peake? They are not exactly replacemnts for Ball.

so what?

That was then.

IF Ball dealcant be done AND he will stay we start again.....deals changed but the players ability hasnt.

Keep up......my no name "old friend"....

[Milton66]

I think you guys are being so harsh on Ball

He's a young guy trying to make a career for himself.

He's worried about his spot in the team and has reason to believe that he may not be in Lyon's bigger picture and has opted to go to a club that may require him more.
A move like this may well extend his career if he goes.

I don't see how any level headed person could hate him for this train of thought. I get so tired of this mentality that if someone doesn't do purely what is in the best interest of the club ONLY, he's a selfish, greedy egomaniac.
Justin Plapp got 1 last last chance to keep his spot on the list, backed into a pack against Essendon "for the team", got seriously injured as a result, didn't play again that season and was delisted. The club didn't reward his loyalty

If the deal falls through, I for one would welcome him back to fold with open arms. All this talk about delisting him or making him play the season out in the 2s is stupid.
Sure make him earn his spot, after he does, why hold malice?

For some of you guys, this whole thing has gotten out of proportion in your minds. The righteousness I hear

IF Ball came back now...cant see it with salary and the fact he nominated a club he wants to play for....BUT IF it happened Id be wrapt. IMHO we have added the run and carry Lyon clearly sees we need....to me someone of Balls in/under character feeding it to these "jets" is what we need....

According to the club, Ball was req'd, hence the 3 year deal.

Do you think that had he not asked to be traded, we still would have recruited both Lovett and Peake? They are not exactly replacemnts for Ball.

so what?

That was then.

IF Ball dealcant be done AND he will stay we start again.....deals changed but the players ability hasnt.

Keep up......my no name "old friend"....

It was a simple question.

[skeptic]

Joffa,

There's a difference between the kind of "worry about your spot in the team" between say a player like Monty or Dal who r coming off career best seasons and Ball who finds himself on the outer, unsure if he is even in the best 22.
In a weaker midfield like COllingwood's, he at least knows that he's a starting 22 player and that they need him.

A 3yr contract will extend his career a further 3 years obviously, but if he drops further down the pecking, it will be his last 3 years on an AFL contract. I don't think its that unreasonable a thought to consider he may be better off at a club where he'll play more in a hope to extend his career longer.

Your argument of everybody should just be there for the team IMO is... i'm not sure of the right word... idealistic? Naive.
They're all here because they're doing what they want to do for money and glory.
Leaving to further his career IMO doesn't make him a disloyal person.

The Justin Plapp thing was to highlight the point that maybe if he didn't at that exact moment put the team first, he may have actually salvaged something of his career, got himself another season, and in that way contributed more to the club.
Sometimes it's in people's best interests to put themselves first. It's not unreasonable.

If he's form warrants a spot in the best 22, its stupid to play him in the ressies out of some principle. If having him in the best 22 is what's best, then so be it.
I also wouldn't ever hold 1 moments weakness against the boy.
I take your point about the "only wanting to be traded to one club".

For the record, I actually wouldn't mind if he was traded. Personally I think his best is behind him and the older he gets, the more his abilities will decline.
I just hope we get good value for him

[SainterK]

Joffa,

There's a difference between the kind of "worry about your spot in the team" between say a player like Monty or Dal who r coming off career best seasons and Ball who finds himself on the outer, unsure if he is even in the best 22.
In a weaker midfield like COllingwood's, he at least knows that he's a starting 22 player and that they need him.

A 3yr contract will extend his career a further 3 years obviously, but if he drops further down the pecking, it will be his last 3 years on an AFL contract. I don't think its that unreasonable a thought to consider he may be better off at a club where he'll play more in a hope to extend his career longer.

Your argument of everybody should just be there for the team IMO is... i'm not sure of the right word... idealistic? Naive.
They're all here because they're doing what they want to do for money and glory.
Leaving to further his career IMO doesn't make him a disloyal person.

The Justin Plapp thing was to highlight the point that maybe if he didn't at that exact moment put the team first, he may have actually salvaged something of his career, got himself another season, and in that way contributed more to the club.
Sometimes it's in people's best interests to put themselves first. It's not unreasonable.

If he's form warrants a spot in the best 22, its stupid to play him in the ressies out of some principle. If having him in the best 22 is what's best, then so be it.
I also wouldn't ever hold 1 moments weakness against the boy.
I take your point about the "only wanting to be traded to one club".

For the record, I actually wouldn't mind if he was traded. Personally I think his best is behind him and the older he gets, the more his abilities will decline.
I just hope we get good value for him

Why are you convinced he would drop down the pecking order?

[Milton66]

Other players developing that will probably offer more, unless Luke can improve his game.

[SaintWodonga]

Question.... Does Collingwood actually want him? Has Mick had talks with him? Seems like they are Luke warm at best (pardon the pun).

[SainterK]

Other players developing that will probably offer more, unless Luke can improve his game.

Did, and could of some more IMO...

Sounds like people have gotten in the ear of Luke when he has been feeling insecure and vulnerable.

[ace]

do the pies have a 'decent player'..?

No, but some of the younger ones could be rehabilitated if they were to be surrounded by saints.

[skeptic]

Why are you convinced he would drop down the pecking order?

I'm not convinced he would, but I just think that his op has slowed him down and impacted on his kicking

His strength is his ball winning and tackling... as he gets older IMO these areas of his game are only going to get worse (maybe) so I wonder in say 3 years time when he's what 27? what weapons will he have to offer?

I see him heading down the McGough path

[SainterK]

Why are you convinced he would drop down the pecking order?

I'm not convinced he would, but I just think that his op has slowed him down and impacted on his kicking

His strength is his ball winning and tackling... as he gets older IMO these areas of his game are only going to get worse (maybe) so I wonder in say 3 years time when he's what 27? what weapons will he have to offer?

I see him heading down the McGough path

So why not stick it out with a club, that has given him a 3 year deal, and working with him to prolong his career by reduced game time?

[saint75]

Why are you convinced he would drop down the pecking order?

I'm not convinced he would, but I just think that his op has slowed him down and impacted on his kicking

His strength is his ball winning and tackling... as he gets older IMO these areas of his game are only going to get worse (maybe) so I wonder in say 3 years time when he's what 27? what weapons will he have to offer?

I see him heading down the McGough path

So why not stick it out with a club, that has given him a 3 year deal, and working with him to prolong his career by reduced game time?

That's the million dollar question at the moment.

[SainterK]

Huh, this week keeps getting weirder...

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/rfnews ... 65580.html

The Swans have made a significant bid for young Geelong ruckman Shane Mumford, offering almost double the contract terms of the Cats. Geelong wants to keep him and coach Mark Thompson and football manager Neil Balme met him yesterday to try to convince him to remain at Kardinia Park.

It is unknown if Mumford informed Sydney after the meeting with his coach that he was prepared to take the Sydney offer, leaving the Swans amenable to the Collingwood trade on Jolly.

After finally nailing down the Jolly deal, which 24 hours ago was looking increasingly unlikely, the Pies will be expected to look at entertaining a deal for a seasoned player to get back into the draft. Fraser becomes the natural focus of attention because Jolly's arrival would push him to second ruck.

The Magpies would be likely to want to continue nurturing young ruckman Cameron Wood, who arrived at the club only two years ago after a trade of the Pies' first draft pick.

The introduction of a player such as Fraser to trade discussions may advance Collingwood's prospects of being able to do a deal to secure St Kilda midfielder Luke Ball.