The window may not be as big as we think!

[saint75]

I don't see how we can cover the loss of Roo.

Have a look at West Coast:

They didn't have a superstar forward and still won a flag. How?

One of the best midfield's we've ever seen. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Braun, Selwood, Embley, Stenglein...

You can get by without a dominant forward if you have quality and depth in midfield.

We need more quality in our midfield rotation.

True. A good midfield will help. worse case, you'd put Kosi at CHF and play someone else at FF.

I agree re-the midfield. However, I don't think there is a lack of quality with ours, just a lack of goal kicking ability. One of my few concerns for a while now. Lenny Hayes, for example, would be rated as highly as Ablett if he kicked more goals. We had the same issue with Harvey.

This is an issue that I am sure will be addressed come the pre-season.

[SydneySainter]

I, like most Sainters, will be there for the boys, rain hail or shine and I'm nothing but proud of what the boys have achieved this year.

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, as we need to be positive and we need to be optimistic and we need to believe, but I always believe that you only get so many chances in life and as much as we love to complain to the footy gods for dealing us a raw deal, I think that in recent years we have had more chances than most teams get.

Top four finishes in 04, 05, 08 and 09, a top eight finish in 06 and we finished ninth in 07, half a game out of the top eight. That's five final campaigns in six years, one grand final berth. Not a bad crack at the flag really and while I like many I believe that the Saints will be hungrier than ever to make amends in 2010, I can't help but feel maybe we may only have ONE more chance at redemption. The majority of the football world expects us to be on the rebound, but after much promise of greater things to come at the heart-breaking ends of our 97 and 05 seasons, I know that it will only be harder, not easier to be in the mix again and everything will have to go right for us.

Looking at our list, players that I can't help but wonder about are Hayes and Baker. They absolutely bled for us on Saturday but they're not spring chickens anymore. Gardiner, King and Milne are also nearing the twilights of their career. While Kosi was in career-best form this year, his kicking efficiency started sliding at the wrong end of the season, though I'm positive the hand injury didn't help and again, Roo's knee will the talking point during the pre-season.

As I said, I agree that we are still a chance for redemption, but we may only have one more crack. The club has been taught valuable football lessons in the past, it's important to learn from them.

Take nothing for granted Saints and know that we love you all!

By gee what a negative post to such a great teams season - next you'll be screaming we should draft Judd...

You manage to pull out every negative possible scenario in 1 post yet start it with a claim that your optomistic?

Right.

Read it how you wish.

I don't see it as negative at all, simply saying that the time frame to achieve greatness may be shorter than the classic Malthouse "three minutes to midnight" theory, as you don't always get another chance.

[Milton66]

I don't see how we can cover the loss of Roo.

Have a look at West Coast:

They didn't have a superstar forward and still won a flag. How?

One of the best midfield's we've ever seen. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Braun, Selwood, Embley, Stenglein...

You can get by without a dominant forward if you have quality and depth in midfield.

We need more quality in our midfield rotation.

True. A good midfield will help. worse case, you'd put Kosi at CHF and play someone else at FF.

I agree re-the midfield. However, I don't think there is a lack of quality with ours, just a lack of goal kicking ability. One of my few concerns for a while now. Lenny Hayes, for example, would be rated as highly as Ablett if he kicked more goals. We had the same issue with Harvey.

This is an issue that I am sure will be addressed come the pre-season.

Maybe it's because we have Roo, just like Harvey had Lockett.

Without looking at the stats, I reckon our mids kicked more goals this year.

I'd like to see Schneider become more of a mid like Leon Davis.

One interesting stat was the Geelong have had 9 main goal kickers this year to our 4.

[Beej]

I don't see how we can cover the loss of Roo.

Have a look at West Coast:

They didn't have a superstar forward and still won a flag. How?

One of the best midfield's we've ever seen. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Braun, Selwood, Embley, Stenglein...

You can get by without a dominant forward if you have quality and depth in midfield.

We need more quality in our midfield rotation.

True. A good midfield will help. worse case, you'd put Kosi at CHF and play someone else at FF.

I agree re-the midfield. However, I don't think there is a lack of quality with ours, just a lack of goal kicking ability. One of my few concerns for a while now. Lenny Hayes, for example, would be rated as highly as Ablett if he kicked more goals. We had the same issue with Harvey.

This is an issue that I am sure will be addressed come the pre-season.

Our midfield is extremely accountable defensively which is one reason for their lack of goals. You always find Lenny, Dal and Joey in our backline mopping up and filling gaps.

On the other hand, Carlton's midfield seem like they have license to bomb forward at every opportunity which does get them goals through Murphy, Judd, Simpson. Where they come undone is that once forward it leaves a lot of space in behind them to exploit and they're not the best at working hard the other way which is where Wallace's "one-way midfield" thing is true and why Carlton are terrible defensively.

[SydneySainter]

I don't see how we can cover the loss of Roo.

Have a look at West Coast:

They didn't have a superstar forward and still won a flag. How?

One of the best midfield's we've ever seen. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Braun, Selwood, Embley, Stenglein...

You can get by without a dominant forward if you have quality and depth in midfield.

We need more quality in our midfield rotation.

A thought I've had on Lenny. I know kicking goals on the run is about that doesn't come as second nature to him, but is it just me or is he actually a very backable set-shot for goal?

That goal against the wind of Saturday was a classic leaders goal!


True. A good midfield will help. worse case, you'd put Kosi at CHF and play someone else at FF.

I agree re-the midfield. However, I don't think there is a lack of quality with ours, just a lack of goal kicking ability. One of my few concerns for a while now. Lenny Hayes, for example, would be rated as highly as Ablett if he kicked more goals. We had the same issue with Harvey.

This is an issue that I am sure will be addressed come the pre-season.

[SydneySainter]

I don't see how we can cover the loss of Roo.

Have a look at West Coast:

They didn't have a superstar forward and still won a flag. How?

One of the best midfield's we've ever seen. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Braun, Selwood, Embley, Stenglein...

You can get by without a dominant forward if you have quality and depth in midfield.

We need more quality in our midfield rotation.

True. A good midfield will help. worse case, you'd put Kosi at CHF and play someone else at FF.

I agree re-the midfield. However, I don't think there is a lack of quality with ours, just a lack of goal kicking ability. One of my few concerns for a while now. Lenny Hayes, for example, would be rated as highly as Ablett if he kicked more goals. We had the same issue with Harvey.

This is an issue that I am sure will be addressed come the pre-season.

A thought I've had on Lenny. I know kicking goals on the run is about that doesn't come as second nature to him, but is it just me or is he actually a very backable set-shot for goal?

That goal against the wind of Saturday was a classic leaders goal!

[saint75]

I don't see how we can cover the loss of Roo.

Have a look at West Coast:

They didn't have a superstar forward and still won a flag. How?

One of the best midfield's we've ever seen. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Braun, Selwood, Embley, Stenglein...

You can get by without a dominant forward if you have quality and depth in midfield.

We need more quality in our midfield rotation.

True. A good midfield will help. worse case, you'd put Kosi at CHF and play someone else at FF.

I agree re-the midfield. However, I don't think there is a lack of quality with ours, just a lack of goal kicking ability. One of my few concerns for a while now. Lenny Hayes, for example, would be rated as highly as Ablett if he kicked more goals. We had the same issue with Harvey.

This is an issue that I am sure will be addressed come the pre-season.

Maybe it's because we have Roo, just like Harvey had Lockett.

Without looking at the stats, I reckon our mids kicked more goals this year.

I'd like to see Schneider become more of a mid like Leon Davis.

One interesting stat was the Geelong have had 9 main goal kickers this year to our 4.

Question is, is that 'kick it to Rooey' mindset reversible?

Don't know the off the stats of the top of my head re-midfielders goals, but the likes of Ball and Hayes really need to improve in this area. Dal is a great kick and has done well this season in regards to goal kicking, though there is still a lot of room for improvement.

Like the Schneider idea. Definitely has merit. Should be an interesting pre season.

[Milton66]

Lyon admitted that he instructed players to long and fast in the final quarter.

Yes, it can be overcome.

Ball will never become a goal kicking mid. If Armo could take over Lenny's role, then he could contribute more.


That said, it really comes down to how well your opposition allow you to play.

I reckon that more teams worked us out as the year wore on.

Maybe we need a good quick outside who can nail a few? Firoa was that type, appeared mentally weak.

Let's not forget X also.

[SainterK]

I just had a quick look goals kicked last two years for those mentioned, most kicked less this year except for Dal

Gram - 2008 = 20 / 2009 = 12
Lenny - 2008 = 5 / 2009 = 5
Dal - 2008 = 12 / 2009 = 16
Joey - 2008 = 12 / 2009 = 8

[saint75]

I just had a quick look goals kicked last two years for those mentioned, most kicked less this year except for Dal

Gram - 2008 = 20 / 2009 = 12
Lenny - 2008 = 5 / 2009 = 5
Dal - 2008 = 12 / 2009 = 16
Joey - 2008 = 12 / 2009 = 8

Gram and Joey are have an excellent skills when it comes to kicking the footy. Gram, by all reports, has been struggling with a niggling hip injury. Probably his worst season for us to date that I can remember. Certainly made up for it on the day that counted so he gets a pass!

Was surprised to see the goal stats for Joey. Disappointing but I expect to see him improve by at least 10% next year. Smokey for the Brownlow methinks. Might go check out the odds for him now if there are any available.

[python]

Ive thought about the 'window' quite a few times since saturday, and ive also had similar thoughts. There is a chance that weve had our shot, and this year was really something that we wasted.

However, no matter how low my thoughts go, one vision keeps me positive, Ross telling the club that it has unfinished business. There is just a different feeling about this group, they seem to be a lot closer than st.kilda sides of the past. Reading the quotes in the paper, a lot of the guys said that they were struggling to look at each other, they felt like they had let their mates down, and that was the worst thing about it. I think that people can cope with hurting themselves, but when it is those they are close with, well they will fight and fight to never let that eventuate.

You could hear it in Roos voice after the game, they are determined to get back, and will stop at no lengths to do so. We missed a chance on saturday, but the hurt will make a 22 win side better. The opportunity is there for the guys. They know it, we know it. Hearing the resolve in Ross, Roo, Lenny and Joey tells me they will be better next year, and this loss should be something that we embrace and something 15 other clubs fear, because the team that embarrassed the majority of the competition in 2009 is about to get a hell of a lot better. We got talent waiting in the wings, Armitage, Steven, Macevoy, Lynch and others who we all know can play.

I say bring on 2010, and anyone who thinks they can stop the Saints!

[Milton66]

Our window is simply...

P--A--N--O--R--A--M--I--C!

[saint75]

Our window is simply...

P--A--N--O--R--A--M--I--C!

Love it Milton!

Was intersting on One Week At At A Time last night that when both Walls and Lloyd were asked what the ladder would finish up as next year. They both had us at the top and both had Geelong falling either 1 or 2 spots. Bulldogs and the Hawks were the movers/improvers.

Make no mistake, Geelong were fortunate to escape with a GF win on the weekend and every one is quite well aware of the fact. We were the best team of the season, we just don't have the silverware to go with it. We won't fall away like Hawthorn did. They stole a GF win 2 years before they were ready. I do see them on the improve this year if they are all fit and firing.

[3rd generation saint]

Gee, I recall people on this forum declaring the window was shut at the end of 2007.
I recall people saying in round 5 2007 that Geelong we're gone.
The window isnot only open, it has been smashed open.
We will have the best training facilities next year, the best fitness advisors and a team that really wants it.
Think the next couple of seasons are looking more like the ones we have dreamed of, not the ones we are use to.

[Winmarvellous]

I'll believe the window open when I'm able to lean out of it and yell that we won the thing. Until then, it jammed on our fingers on the weekend. I'm a pessimist by nature, and think this may have been our one shot...and we blew it. Everything would have to go perfectly for us to take it home next year injury wise I reckon. And teams have had an extra year to work us out. The Hawks "rolling zone" was nowhere near as effective the second time round, regardless of personnel.

[Milton66]

[quote="Winmarvellous"]I'm a pessimist by nature [quote]

Gee, I'd never have guessed going by your recent posts.

Just like the end of last year when everyone was saying that we'd never close the gap on the Cats and Hawks...

Now people are assuming that we'll stand still, not improve... or even modify our game plan.

[Winmarvellous]

Sorry, I just don't really see the upside of losing a Grand Final. Makes us one of 15 losers for the season. Next year is next year. Anything could happen between now and then. I just can't see us having a better year injury-wise than we had this year. Everyone is talking about us being there next year and how the experience will do us good. A win would've done us a hell of a lot better, and it was ours for the taking. We failed.

[Milton66]

Sorry, I just don't really see the upside of losing a Grand Final. Makes us one of 15 losers for the season. Next year is next year. Anything could happen between now and then. I just can't see us having a better year injury-wise than we had this year. Everyone is talking about us being there next year and how the experience will do us good. A win would've done us a hell of a lot better, and it was ours for the taking. We failed.

If they want it badly enough, and we manage them propoerly, I see no reason why we can't challenge again.

Brisbane: 4 GF's in a row
Syd and WCE: 2 in a row
Geelong: 3 in a row.

It can be done.

[bigred]

However it is freaking hard to make one....to make two or more you have to be a very, VERY good side.

[Winmarvellous]

Brisbane and Geelong are 2 of the best teams of all-time. WC and Sydney did so due as much to others (us included) falling over as their talent. It's a bloody hard ask, especially when we've been at least top 4 for 4 of the last 6 years. That's a long time to be knocking on the door. It'll take something special to do it again.

[SainterK]

You don't have the confidence in our list then WM, or is it the gameplan, I am just curious as to what aspect of it concerns you?

[Winmarvellous]

A little bit of A and a little bit of B. We seem to be thereabouts, but pretty much everything went right that could've this year, and this rarely happens in football. I still don't think we've got the depth some believe us to have, and too often the same culprits seem to either go missing or turn the ball over when the heat is on. If Lenny or Roo go down, God help us. Many would've realised by now if you can shut Lenny down you take away most of our midfield drive. Ball is on the outer and probably will remain so. His disposal isn't up to scratch atm. The gameplan is high maintenance, and takes a toll on the players physically. Our avenue to goal dries up if Roo has an off day (Kosi went missing for much of the finals), and other teams are on the rise (expect Hawthorn to be back and the Bulldogs will have a rested Barry Hall). I just think we may have blown it after so many missed opportunities.

[matrix]

[bigred]

A little bit of A and a little bit of B. We seem to be thereabouts, but pretty much everything went right that could've this year, and this rarely happens in football. I still don't think we've got the depth some believe us to have, and too often the same culprits seem to either go missing or turn the ball over when the heat is on. If Lenny or Roo go down, God help us. Many would've realised by now if you can shut Lenny down you take away most of our midfield drive. Ball is on the outer and probably will remain so. His disposal isn't up to scratch atm. The gameplan is high maintenance, and takes a toll on the players physically. Our avenue to goal dries up if Roo has an off day (Kosi went missing for much of the finals), and other teams are on the rise (expect Hawthorn to be back and the Bulldogs will have a rested Barry Hall). I just think we may have blown it after so many missed opportunities.

Not too many sides can afford to lose their #1 mid or key forward.

I don't really agree that everything went right this year. We were very well managed with injury, perhaps this area was somewhat lucky, but hey. We could have been better in a couple of areas. There is room for improvement.

There is no doubt in my mind that the list in its current form can succeed again. My main concern is that we need to get some genuine development from the fringe and younger players. We really need a few guys like Geary, McEvoy and Steven to push through. I think we will delist and trade a couple of the usual suspects. But this is so dependant on the rest of our list.

If Tungatalum can get a defensive side

Hell, 2010, to be frank, will be a massive year. It will make or break Ross Lyon's career. This club is prone to self destruction after years like 2009 and we need to ensure this does not eventuate.

List management in 2010 is going to be absolutely vital. Even more so than usual. We need some minor tweaking. Find another avenue to score, get some faster outside mid, and replace Max.

I want this mob to come back fitter and harder. 2009 should just be the preliminary example of "Saints Footy". With any luck, 2010 could be a monster.

Its hard not to jump at shadows so soon after a GF loss, but sheesh, 2010 has me concerned. In my eyes anything less than a Premiership is failure. That is a really hard mark to get to. Grand Finals are devilishly hard to make, and Premierships are just so hard to win.

We need some more good luck, we need some genuine endeavour from the list. We also need some improvement from the box.

Plus, towards the latter part of next year, we should actually have a decent training centre for a change. Heck, if we can make a GF using the facilities that were available at Moorabbin this year....pfft.

I dont buy into the "window" ideal. It should be continuous improvement.

[SydneySainter]

Our window is simply...

P--A--N--O--R--A--M--I--C!

Love it Milton!

Was intersting on One Week At At A Time last night that when both Walls and Lloyd were asked what the ladder would finish up as next year. They both had us at the top and both had Geelong falling either 1 or 2 spots. Bulldogs and the Hawks were the movers/improvers.

I perfer to be under the radar, as we started this year! I don't draw excitement from the football community rating us, we're already premiership favourites! We were flag favourites at the head of 2006, even Xavier said that this was our year and we were also tipped as a top two team in 2008 after another pre-season cup.

I know it shouldn't matter, because if we're good enough, it should be irrelevant how the punters and experts rate us, but history does show that we're mostly at our best when no one reckons that we have the steel and the assumption that this grand final defeat will make us unstoppable next year, life isn't always that simple!

All I'm saying is, there is a LOT of hard work ahead if we are to be at this level again next year and the club knows it!

CARN THE SAINTERS