Someone care to school me on the history of the drop punt

[66 Saints]

Is it correct to say that the drop-kick is now illegal? i.e. that the umpire would pay incorrect disposal for dropping the ball?

When was the last time anyone saw a legit drop-kick? I really can;t remember one in 30 odd years of watching footy.

I have vague memories of Bruce Lindner launching a few massive drop kicks for goal in the late 80's for Geelong, Lindner could also launch a big torpedo when required.

[matrix]

dunno how it can be incorrect disposal
like having a bounce in my opinion

[markinUSA]

Alll I am saying is that I have seen it called 'dropping the ball' - not that I think it should be.

[Bernard Shakey]

I always thought Freo under Neesham were responsible for introducing the run/handball style.

No way Len Smith (Fitzroy) and Ted Whitten (Footscray) were big on handball.

Barrassi took it to a new level. Neesham made it look stupid.

[Bernard Shakey]

Is it correct to say that the drop-kick is now illegal? i.e. that the umpire would pay incorrect disposal for dropping the ball?

The only way it could be illegal is if you're tackled and don't make contact with you the ball, with your foot. Then it doesn't matter what type of kick you are trying to execute.

[Shaggy]

After watching that '71 GF and the combined 11% kicking efficiency of both sides involved I have a few questions.

The drop-punt obviously wasn't a permanent fixture in the game at that time, why?

You would think that someone, even by accident, may have got on to a drop-punt at some stage throughout the 80(!) years and thought, "hang on a second, that went pretty straight!"

In the NBL they still punt not drop punt. I dont think they are stupid. I think it depends on ball size .

Our 71 team made lots of mistakes. But then again they were only allowed 2 interchanges per game compared to 80 plus these days.

There were huge turnovers in the last quarter between Collingwood and Adelaide in the last quarter when they were all stuffed and they couldn't inter change because of injuries.

It was also a great quarter to watch.

I love competitive footy.

Take out the interchange and centre square today and it will become a slug fest like 71 IMO (but I also agree players are faster, bigger, fitter more skilled today).

[bobmurray]

Clear similarities between Jack Dyer and Justin Koschitzke

yep......mostly in the looks department...

[Beej]

After watching that '71 GF and the combined 11% kicking efficiency of both sides involved I have a few questions.

The drop-punt obviously wasn't a permanent fixture in the game at that time, why?

You would think that someone, even by accident, may have got on to a drop-punt at some stage throughout the 80(!) years and thought, "hang on a second, that went pretty straight!"

In the NBL they still punt not drop punt. I dont think they are stupid. I think it depends on ball size .

In the NFL they kick for hang-time and distance. The torpedo would be the best option because they can aim to kick it as high as they can and the natural spin of the ball will ensure it cuts through the air and travels a fair distance anyway. If you aim to kick a drop-punt as high as you can, it won't travel very far because the spin of the ball slows it down in the air.

Every so often when a team is just outside field goal range and therefore not looking for distance they will kick to a certain area and use a drop punt.

[Beej]

I always thought Freo under Neesham were responsible for introducing the run/handball style.

No way Len Smith (Fitzroy) and Ted Whitten (Footscray) were big on handball.

Barrassi took it to a new level. Neesham made it look stupid.

From what I've heard/seen these coaches were responsible for the following tactical advancements in the game...

If anyone knows/believes otherwise, will be good to hear what you think

The huddle from a kick-in: Walls

Open forward line: Pagan/Nth Melbourne(Pagan's paddock) Unaware if teams did this previously.

17/18-man zone/rolling zone: I've been told Eade was responsible for this. Possibly during his time at Sydney or maybe his early days at the Bulldogs. Clarkson took it a step further by organising his players to keep the shape of the zone further up the field and shift across depending on where the footy was (the rolling zone).

Short kicking/possession football: Sheedy

[ace]

In the 60s so much of the game was almost like kick to kick.
A guy would take a mark, go back and kick to a pack.
What now would be considered a multi player contest.

Players played to beat their opponent, they did not play "team football".
In the 70s players began playing on after a mark and using hand ball to run the ball and creating a loose man.

I think it was Ron Barassi who first banned his players from using the drop kick, and stab kick.
He recognised most were actually shanked.
There was a lot of controversy at the time but he was proved right, and every club followed suit.

Playing coaches were replaced with "professional" coaches who started laying down the law to players - you will play as directed or you wont play.
Up till then players were fairly free to play the way they liked and coaches worried more about inspiring players.

The drop punt was found to be more reliable and easier for a team mate to mark than a flat punt so it became the kick of preference of coaches.

Now team discipline is such that the game is virtually always drop punt.

[Beej]

In the 60s so much of the game was almost like kick to kick.
A guy would take a mark, go back and kick to a pack.
What now would be considered a multi player contest.

Players played to beat their opponent, they did not play "team football".
In the 70s players began playing on after a mark and using hand ball to run the ball and creating a loose man.

I think it was Ron Barassi who first banned his players from using the drop kick, and stab kick.
He recognised most were actually shanked.
There was a lot of controversy at the time but he was proved right, and every club followed suit.

Playing coaches were replaced with "professional" coaches who started laying down the law to players - you will play as directed or you wont play.
Up till then players were fairly free to play the way they liked and coaches worried more about inspiring players.

The drop punt was found to be more reliable and easier for a team mate to mark than a flat punt so it became the kick of preference of coaches.

Now team discipline is such that the game is virtually always drop punt.

Good post.

I've seen some highlights (not a great deal) from the 70s and 60s and I cannot remember a single highlight which shows a player getting hit lace-out with a beautiful pass.

I'm sure it happened, probably rarely, but I've never seen it. Those who were able to on a semi-consistent basis I imagine would've been seen as the highly skilled players.

Now you can't/shouldn't get a game unless you can hit a target.

The lack of skill in comparison to today is why I cannot watch a game of footy in black and white.

I have never seen the 66 grand final in its entirety.

[bigcarl]

Open forward line: Pagan/Nth Melbourne(Pagan's paddock) Unaware if teams did this previously.

john keneddy at hawthorn used to give over the entire forward line to peter hudson and throw everyone else on the ball.

the league was forced to introduce the centre square (originally a diamond) to stop congestion.

it was pagan's paddock 25 years earlier and made sense with an exceptional freak such as hudson, who virtually no-one could beat one on one.

the tactic is closely allied with flooding/rolling zones as you have to do something with the extra players. in hawthorn's case they had a rolling zone that followed the ball around, opening up space for hudson.

i wouldn't be surprised if any of the tactics you mentioned had been tried at some time or in some form as there is nothing much new under the sun.

[terry smith rules]

In the 60s so much of the game was almost like kick to kick.
A guy would take a mark, go back and kick to a pack.
What now would be considered a multi player contest.

Players played to beat their opponent, they did not play "team football".
In the 70s players began playing on after a mark and using hand ball to run the ball and creating a loose man.

I think it was Ron Barassi who first banned his players from using the drop kick, and stab kick.
He recognised most were actually shanked.
There was a lot of controversy at the time but he was proved right, and every club followed suit.

Playing coaches were replaced with "professional" coaches who started laying down the law to players - you will play as directed or you wont play.
Up till then players were fairly free to play the way they liked and coaches worried more about inspiring players.

The drop punt was found to be more reliable and easier for a team mate to mark than a flat punt so it became the kick of preference of coaches.

Now team discipline is such that the game is virtually always drop punt.

Good post.

I've seen some highlights (not a great deal) from the 70s and 60s and I cannot remember a single highlight which shows a player getting hit lace-out with a beautiful pass.

I'm sure it happened, probably rarely, but I've never seen it. Those who were able to on a semi-consistent basis I imagine would've been seen as the highly skilled players.

Now you can't/shouldn't get a game unless you can hit a target.

The lack of skill in comparison to today is why I cannot watch a game of footy in black and white.

I have never seen the 66 grand final in its entirety.

Hitting a target!! You need to do some research, try Goggin to Wade, Stewart to anybody, a guy from the 50s Thorald Merrett, look up stab passes.

More skilfull today at what? Uncontested marks, now we get excited if anybody takes even one contested mark (now theres a skill.. lost).

Players still miss shots 30 metres out, is that more skilled. Yes they get them from stupid angles. That is because and I have said it before back in the day players might have trained 6 hours a week total. Now they have all day to practice bananas, but still miss the easy ones.

There is little skill in kicking sideaways to a man on his own. I will agree players are more athletic, this allows them to run more and find that space, but that is hardly a skill.

Possession does equates to skill as much as the time put into practice.

Finally if black and white is your determining factor for skill, how do you rate Phar Lap, Rod Laver, Lionel Rose, Dawn Fraser. Unfortunately they never made it to the colour age and I don't think we question their ability or skill.

[aussiejones]

"I have never seen the 66 grand final in its entirety." Watch as its sure to be replayed in the next couple of weeks...

Watch Stewart to Baldock.

Other aspects of the game were very 'untidy' compated to todays game style.

[jonesy]

I always wonder what country footy must of been like in the old days if the VFL was the premier level....

[perfectionist]

..
Hitting a target!! You need to do some research, try Goggin to Wade, Stewart to anybody, a guy from the 50s Thorald Merrett, look up stab passes.

And add Bobby Skilton, and on both sides. Which is why he and Stewie won three Brownlows each.

...More skilfull today at what? Uncontested marks, now we get excited if anybody takes even one contested mark (now theres a skill.. lost).l.

Not such much lost but eliminated. If you get a tape of the great marks of the 60s, 70s and 80s, 95% of them would not be paid today. Either they are not held for long enough or they would be a free for hands in the back.

That is why Nick Riewoldt and Kosi are such marvels. They are two of the best marks of all time, in my view anyway.

[Beej]

In the 60s so much of the game was almost like kick to kick.
A guy would take a mark, go back and kick to a pack.
What now would be considered a multi player contest.

Players played to beat their opponent, they did not play "team football".
In the 70s players began playing on after a mark and using hand ball to run the ball and creating a loose man.

I think it was Ron Barassi who first banned his players from using the drop kick, and stab kick.
He recognised most were actually shanked.
There was a lot of controversy at the time but he was proved right, and every club followed suit.

Playing coaches were replaced with "professional" coaches who started laying down the law to players - you will play as directed or you wont play.
Up till then players were fairly free to play the way they liked and coaches worried more about inspiring players.

The drop punt was found to be more reliable and easier for a team mate to mark than a flat punt so it became the kick of preference of coaches.

Now team discipline is such that the game is virtually always drop punt.

Good post.

I've seen some highlights (not a great deal) from the 70s and 60s and I cannot remember a single highlight which shows a player getting hit lace-out with a beautiful pass.

I'm sure it happened, probably rarely, but I've never seen it. Those who were able to on a semi-consistent basis I imagine would've been seen as the highly skilled players.

Now you can't/shouldn't get a game unless you can hit a target.

The lack of skill in comparison to today is why I cannot watch a game of footy in black and white.

I have never seen the 66 grand final in its entirety.

Hitting a target!! You need to do some research, try Goggin to Wade, Stewart to anybody, a guy from the 50s Thorald Merrett, look up stab passes.

More skilfull today at what? Uncontested marks, now we get excited if anybody takes even one contested mark (now theres a skill.. lost).

Players still miss shots 30 metres out, is that more skilled. Yes they get them from stupid angles. That is because and I have said it before back in the day players might have trained 6 hours a week total. Now they have all day to practice bananas, but still miss the easy ones.

There is little skill in kicking sideaways to a man on his own. I will agree players are more athletic, this allows them to run more and find that space, but that is hardly a skill.

Possession does equates to skill as much as the time put into practice.

Finally if black and white is your determining factor for skill, how do you rate Phar Lap, Rod Laver, Lionel Rose, Dawn Fraser. Unfortunately they never made it to the colour age and I don't think we question their ability or skill.

Dawn Fraser's best times wouldn't be quick enough to make an Olympic semi-final today.

Rod Laver with his wooden racquet would be completely out-powered.

Lionel Rose wouldn't be able to last 3 rounds with any of the current bantamweights.

I'm not suggesting that they were not greats (obviously they were), I'm just saying that standards obviously improve over time.

I'm sure there were the odd players who were seen as highly-skilled in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, of course there were, but they were highly-skilled relative to the footballers they had around them.

Peter Daicos for instance and his ability to dribble the ball through from the boundary line. Once upon a time that was seen as out of this world, now we can't go a week without seeing one of those goals.

It's got to the stage that if that type of goal wins the goal of the year award, it's boring because of how many we see and they're all the same.

Take a couple of full-backs from the 90s - Andrew Dunkley and Mick Martyn - two players who couldn't hit a cow's ass with a bango. We'll never see that type of full-back again because of their inability to use the footy by foot. Standards have improved. Their equivalents today would be Ben Rutten and Darren Glass who are at least decent with their use of the footy. Martyn and Dunkley would throw the ball onto their boot and hope to hell that it landed near the player they were looking to hit.

I don't think anyone in the 60s would have seen a player use a footy like Daniel Rich.

You say Goggin to Wade or Stewart to anybody. In 20 years time nobody will be talking about Dal Santo to Riewoldt or Hodge to Franklin, because pretty much every single player today can hit a leading forward.

As for goal-kicking, that is one thing that will improve only when the footballer's ability to handle pressure improves. Probably never. With the growing media attention the game gets today, where every crucial kick is highlighted on every footy show and sports section of the paper, it will only make it tougher to kick goals.