The Ultimate QF Match Preview - Saints v Pies

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

bergholt
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7356
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004 9:25am

Post: # 808954Post bergholt »

good post that one, thanks mate.

on the other hand, this is a bad post:
Thinline wrote:And as for Swan - Leopard. Spots. Sorry, but as good as he may have been, I have little time for anyone who involves themselves in that kind of thing.
you're saying that he can't have made a mistake at the age of 19 and a half, and then learnt better as he grew up? you didn't make any mistakes in your teenage years which you then stopped making later?

guess he should just be locked up and the key thrown away, then, if there's no possible chance of rehabilitation.

that's a very inflexible attitude.


DaVe86
Club Player
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue 05 May 2009 1:15pm

Post: # 808965Post DaVe86 »

like i said in the Dane Swan thread...

He came to the club a bit of a hood. He was also uneducated. Its probably why he went so low in the draft.

He is actually a positive AFL story. Came into the game a lout, and he has turned out to be a mature and sensible player. He has turned his life and his career around in 6 years.

What he did will haunt him the rest of his life. Like in any walks of life, a criminal conviction never goes away. It will always affect career prospects...in Swan's circumstance he will never be considered leadership material.

But if it were not for football, Swan would've ended up in jail. But credit to the system for ensuring Swan was given the best possible chance. I always credit Collingwood for sticking with him.

Through incidents involving guys like Shaw, Swan, Wellingham and Didak, the club has stuck behind them. Many have criticised these decisions, but utlimately all have become good players and are seemingly on the mends.

It's actually a credit to the AFL and a welcome reminder of the good part of football which is never discussed in the media.


St DAC
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2119
Joined: Tue 28 Sep 2004 7:43pm
Location: Gippsland
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post: # 809085Post St DAC »

Excellent analysis Dave, as usual. Well thought out and balanced. I must say I like your conclusion too ... :wink:


User avatar
matrix
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 21475
Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 1:55pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post: # 809101Post matrix »

at 18 or 19 years old you know what is right or wrong...no matter where you grew up and with who.
inside, we all know what is right or wrong.


nobhead
Club Player
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed 19 Aug 2009 11:46am
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: The Ultimate QF Match Preview - Saints v Pies

Post: # 809106Post nobhead »

DaVe86 wrote:Hi guys, you might remember me from earlier in the year. Here is my QF preview of this weeks game and finals in general. It's as unbiased as possible.

--------------


With the finals series upon us, and the stakes higher, this weeks match preview hits epic proportions. You may need to put a bit of time aside to read it all...but I guarantee you this is the ultimate guide to the finals series and in particular the game on Sunday.


The first qualifying final between St.Kilda and Collingwood will be played on the MCG on Sunday at 2:40pm. This is the blockbuster battle between 1st and 4th on the ladder with the reward for victory a week off and a place in the preliminary final. The loser will utilise its second chance and play a home game against the winner of the elimination final between Adelaide and Essendon.

Congratulations to St.Kilda on winning the minor premiership. 19 straight wins marks what was truly a fantastic year for the Saints. Nonetheless, the Saints lost 2 of its last 3 games and looked somewhat out of touch against Melbourne on the weekend. I am not reading too far into the last month as St.Kilda had already secured top spot by this time and the motivation was purely on preservation and management as opposed to hitting top gear. However, there will remain doubters and sceptics until the Saints win the Grand Final. Their first statement needs to be made against Collingwood on Sunday.

Collingwood have been largely regarded as the in-form team in the comp, winning 12 of its last 14 games, half of those against teams in the top 8. Though out of those wins, a gaping hole emerges. None of them were against St.Kilda or Geelong who must be regarded as the benchmarks right now, regardless of late season form.

Collingwood would have been eyeing off 3rd spot and thus a qualifying final against Geelong. I think an extra point against the Western Bulldogs would’ve sealed this. However, to the Bulldogs credit, they were able to storm home in the 2nd half to pinch 3rd spot off the Magpies. Geelong has only won 5 of its last 9 games and will be without Steve Johnson until atleast the preliminaries. Chapman, Rooke and Ottens still carry question marks as well. The loss to the Doggies means the Pies must face the top of the ladder Saints.

But this minor hiccup presents an opportunity for Collingwood. If there is a time to face St.Kilda, it is in the first round of finals whilst those question marks still hover over the Saints. These questions include:

- Are the Saints capable of playing the MCG? (St.Kilda played its first game on the MCG in Round 22 against Melbourne and looked out of sorts in the first half)
- Can the Saints play in front of 100,000?
- Are the Saints out of form or have they purely been preserving themselves for the finals?
- And most importantly...Can the Saints win the GF?

These are all examined in this preview.


The MCG Factor


Given the fact Collingwood plays the majority of their games on the MCG, this has to be considered a Collingwood home game. Final ladder positions now mean nothing. Everything restarts. Despite the fact the Saints finished on top of the ladder, it is Collingwood who will feel the most comfort playing on the MCG.

The last time these 2 sides played on the MCG was in the Semi-Final last year. The Saints were resounding victors, knocking Collingwood out of the finals. However, in Round 19 that year, the Pies had a character building victory against the odds with an undermanned team on the MCG.

In terms of 2009, there is only 1 insight we can get into St.Kilda’s ability to play on the G. That is last weeks game against Melbourne...and ultimately the Saints didn’t have to put much energy into that game...so the verdict is left open.

But the one thing that did interest me is that the Demons were able to get loose numbers wide. The MCG is as wide as it is long, so the Demons found space on the wings. The Saints are drilled to force teams wide by protecting the corridor. At the Dome, this can be done easily because it is much narrower. But on the MCG, getting numbers through the corridor leaves a lot of space, and St.Kilda’s zone will have to adjust and spread.

A truly interesting point to make is the contrasting styles between the sides. As I said, the Saints try to force you wide. Collingwood on the other hand prefer to play wide. Does this mean that Collingwood will be playing into St.Kilda’s hand and in essence doing the work for them?? Or does it mean that the game can be played on Collingwood’s terms and they will be able to get loose numbers out wide?? An interesting point to ponder.


Ultimately, I think the whole notion that the Saints will be struggle on the G is a bit overdone. There are no players in the Saints 22 that have not played on the G in the past, and their game style will have no trouble holding up. But you cannot go past the fact that this remains in essence a home game for Collingwood and that the Pies do carry some advantage into the game.


The Crowd

I also doubt that the big crowd will worry the Saints. They have played some blockbusters this year. I was at the Geelong game and the noise in that match was equivalent to any Collingwood game I have been to this year barring ANZAC day. With the roof shut, the crowd feels double its size. And the Saints have had some experience in tight ones...although it is notable that they had a chance to win both games against Essendon and North Melbourne but blew each.

You would expect both sides to come out pretty nervous, but very fired up.


The Form-line

At the beginning of Round 22, I thought Collingwood were the in-form side. Having won 12 of 13, the Pies were looking very ominous. But the loss to the Bulldogs on the weekend was disappointing. The Saints however, coming off 2 losses, had a comfortable yet uninspiring win against Melbourne. So in essence, the Saints carry the winning form into finals, yet I still think Collingwood carry the momentum.

The loss to the Bulldogs has to be put into perspective. I have no doubt Malthouse was more than happy to see a less physical game and try to defend the lead. Both sides stacked their backlines. There was not one holding the ball decision all game. It was a match Terry Wallace would’ve admired because he invented that style. Numbers behind the ball, a lot of switching and uncontested footy. The game played between the 2 50 metre arcs.

Ultimately, this style of game was not going to beat the Bulldogs who are more skilful and averse to playing uncontested football. I think Malthouse simply tried to preserve the percentage the Magpies had over the Bulldogs, but it backfired. If the game counted for more, I think you would’ve seen a more contested style of game emerge.


The Last meeting

Round 7 seems such a long time away. St.Kilda gave Collingwood a massacre, winning 128-40. Dal Santo dominated with 38 possessions, whilst Riewoldt and Schneider each kicked 5. The Pies were languishing at 3 wins and 4 losses, with a list injury depleted. They would go on to get smacked by Carlton, then win 12 of the next 13 games.

There is no doubt this is a different Collingwood than the one that faced St.Kilda in Round 7. Collingwood turned a massive 51 point loss against Carlton in Round 8 to a massive 54 point win only 10 weeks later. So it goes to show that a full list and good form makes a huge difference. But you can’t go past the fact that the Saints accounted for Collingwood easy and thus have to go in as comfortable favourites this week. St.Kilda are a much more mature team than Carlton and such a big turn around is a huge ask.



At the Selection Table

This will be the biggest talking point and debate all week. Each side has real headaches this week...but the good sort of headaches. Players who were once considered locks in the top 22 are now playing VFL football and are desperately trying to force their way back in for the finals. But displacing players that are performing is becoming increasingly difficult. It’s hard for a coach and selection committee to break up a winning formula.

The most interest surrounding the St.Kilda lineup will be whether Luke Ball and Max Hudghton are recalled. Both were fantastic on the weekend in the VFL, and seem required players. Both bring experience and hardness into a game that is going to be played at frightful intensity.

The other player who has really cemented himself into the top 22 has been Michael Gardiner. Room will be have to made for him...but does that come at the expense of King or McEvoy. King brings a wealth of finals experience, having won 3 Grand Finals in a row in 3 different competitions. Yet McEvoy probably brings more form and versatility. However, it was King on the weekend who performed best, whilst McEvoy was very quiet.

I think ultimately, the Saints must bring back Ball, Hudghton and Gardiner. That is going to mean sacrificing 3 guys who are in good nick. It’s tough, but you can’t deny the above 3 are guys you want in your side.

If I were Ross Lyon, it would be:

In: Ball, Hudghton, Gardiner
Out: Eddy, Dawson, McEvoy


I don’t think the Saints can play both Dawson and Hudghton in the same team. It is so tough on Dawson, but Hudghton is a proven performer and has given his whole career to the Saints in the hope of winning a flag. Denying him that opportunity is as harsh as it comes.

Much interest will also surround the fitness of Hayes and Riewoldt, each who ended the Melbourne game with some injury concerns. You can just about guarantee both will play and you would think it was more caution than anything on the Saints part.


The lineup for the Saints:

FB: Baker, Hudghton, Gilbert
HB: Blake, Fisher, Gram
C: Montagna, Hayes, Dal Santo
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, Dempster
F: Milne, Koschitzke, Schneider

R: Gardiner, Ball, C. Jones

I: King, Ray, R. Clarke, McQualter



Collingwood also have a number of dilemmas. Firstly, the Pies have 2 forced changes this week you would think. 1 is to make room for Pendlebury who was a late withdrawal with Back spasms against the Bulldogs. You would presume he is an automatic inclusion if fit. The Pies also have to bring back a tall defender to play on Kosi. Leigh Brown was dropped against the Doggies, partly because of match-up’s, but on paper because of illness. Brown has played 20 games now for Collingwood and seems an automatic re-inclusion, although Nathan Brown and Ben Reid will push strongly for selection. You would think Malthouse will go with Leigh Brown who has the trust of the coaching panel at this stage and can make-shift in a number of roles.


Then you have a whole raft of players in dominant VFL form. Sidebottom, Marty Clarke and Dawes are all very close to selection. Then you have one guy who goes by the name of Anthony Rocca who has been kicking a steady 2 goals a game since his VFL return. Not setting the world on fire, but is yet to play in conditions that suit him either.

I would make the big call and bring Rocca back. Preferably, I would’ve liked to see him get a run against the Bulldogs, but they were probably not the right team for him. St.Kilda I believe are a better fit for Rocca.

If Rocca were to get a matchup with Hudghton or Dawson, they are not the sort of players who would run off him. He could sit in Full Forward with comfort knowing his opponent is not going to run off him. If Lyon decides to use Hudghton on Anthony, then Jack can lead high up the field and get him out of his comfort zone, leaving Rocca with the 2nd ranked defender. I think given the contested nature this game is going to be played in, having a big target up forward eases the pressure on the midfield to be too precise under pressure. Simply bomb it long to Rocca and let him compete.

The majority of St.Kilda supporters would claim that they would love to see Rocca back because they will run off him with ease...but the truth is that Pebbles remains the sort of player teams would prefer out because he can lift for a big game.

In: Rocca, Pendlebury, L.Brown
Out: Dick, McCarthy, Goldsack


Very tough calls on the outs. I think Dick was exposed against a quality side last week. Even against Sydney and Richmond, I thought his form was not great, but he got away with it with a few lucky bounces and some poor opponents on him. He was not sighted against the Bulldogs, and I fear he will go missing again against the best tackling team in the comp. His kicking is not there yet, and he is too small and unsure with his hands in close.

McCarthy got concussed and may be in doubt...but regardless he does not have enough senior match practice this year to play against the best side in the comp. 2010 is J-Mac’s year.

Then I feel Goldsack may lack a matchup. The Saints possess no mid-sized forwards for him to play on. Though I do think he could be a good matchup for Goddard around the ground because he is tall, versatile, quick and tackles hard. His pressure could worry Goddard who plays his best when loose. This could mean Wellingham is dropped considering his game was very poor on the weekend. Though I worry about dropping 3 smalls for 2 talls and a small. Team-balance is important and Wellingham can tag...kind of.

Clarke, Sidebottom, Reid, Nathan Brown and Barham all fail to make the side. Johnson and Toovey have still done enough to hold their spots in the side.

The team:

B: Shaw, Prestigiacomo, O’Brien
HB: Maxwell, L.Brown, Toovey
C: Didak, Swan, Johnson
HF: Davis, Cloke, Lockyer
FF: Rocca, Anthony, Thomas

R: Fraser, O’Bree, Pendlebury

I: Wood, Beams, Medhurst, Wellingham/Goldsack


No doubt 2 very good teams on paper. St.Kilda seem better right across the board, but the eveness of Collingwood is impressive.


The Matchups:

I think we’ll see a very man on man style of game. Each side likes having a loose player in defence, so I think the game will start with a loose player in defence. These are likely to be Maxwell and Goddard or Gilbert. Maxwell is becoming a barometer for the Pies, whilst the St.Kilda defence is renowned for getting back quickly and generating a lot of run. Throughout the midfield but, I think we’re going to see a lot of numbers around the ball and a lot of contested footy. It will mostly be man on man. The Saints are likely to apply a few tags, whilst Collingwood is more likely to go head to head with their opponents.


St.Kilda forward line:

Riewoldt v Prestigiacomo: An impossible matchup for Collingwood. I would rate Roo as the best going around right now...although his goal-kicking under pressure is letting him down. You would think a player of his quality will nail the goals in September however, much the way Franklin did last year.

Riewoldt kicked 5 on Presti in Round 7, but I didn’t think Presti was embarrassed. The Saints were dominating the midfield and were pumping it inside 50 so often. There was not much Presti could do. No doubt this matchup will happen, and Riewoldt will fancy his ability to lead high up the ground. I think Presti will be happy for this to happen, as long as he is marking it outside range. Maxwell will be delivered the responsibility to chop off his leads. It will be interesting to see whether the Saints try to man up Maxwell or get a loose man happening at their end. I think they will try and get a loose man themselves as they would fancy themselves to generate more run.

Koschitzke v L.Brown – Big Kosi has proven a handful this year and his kicking is generally much better. Leigh Brown will return to the side with this project on his mind. Big Kosi will work him around, but will fancy himself 1 on 1 as well. Kosi is taller and more talented. Again, getting the numbers back will be crucial, as well as slowing up the St.Kilda ball movement to ensure no 1 on 1’s are allowed.

Milne v Harry O’Brien – Again, this was a matchup Milne will claim to have won in Round 7. Milne kicked 4 goals. But it has to be noted that Harry restricted Milne to 13 touches. To be honest, those 4 goals were the only times Milne looked dangerous. I thought Harry really stuck to his task, but again it was very hard to limit the forwards with the amount of ball that was coming in. Ultimately, those 4 goals came from some poor marking from Harry, so he can’t afford even 1 minutes of laziness against Milne. Milney is in great form this year and has an ability to pop up even when he is having an average game...as in Round 7. I don’t however think it was the backline who were at fault in Round 7, and therefore I think the matchups will go much the same way.

Schneider v Toovey – Tooves had his colours lowered in Round 7 and will be looking to make amends. Schneider was dominant with 5 goals and must be stopped this time around. Toovey has Schneider done for pace and in the air...but Schneider is very clever and is the perfect complement for the talls around him. Toovey would really make a name for himself if he could play well in the finals. He will always have his knockers, so a big game against the best side on the biggest stage is a must for him.

Heath Shaw v McQualter – I’m thinking the Saints will ensure Shaw is manned up and try to make him accountable. Though Shaw was perhaps Collingwood’s best against the Dogs, his direct opponent Brad Johnson had a massive impact as well. McQualter is another good news story for the Saints. Delisted and then rookie, he has really done all he can to cement a spot in the 22, and will most likely be rewarded with a few finals games. Heath Shaw is Collingwood’s drive out of defence and still remains one of the most important players.


Midfield

How enthralling this will be. The matchup’s I propose are not likely to eventuate, but are purely based on what I feel would be the wisest moves. Let’s see how close I get.

O’Bree v Ball – A head to head matchup between these 2 tough onballers. O’Bree continues to lead Collingwood in key areas such as tackling and clearances, but his footskills have reverted back to their old sloppy ways of late. Luke Ball obviously lacks real damaging footskills as well, so the battle between who can win the clearances will go a long way to determining this game. I think O’Bree is as important as anyone on the Collingwood list, and when he is down, so are the Pies. Ball on the other hand has a point to prove and expect 10+ tackles from him.

Hayes v Pendlebury – Pendlebury is Collingwood’s other dominant clearance player. There is no co-incidence that his vacancy, along with an average game from O’Bree saw the Doggies run rampant in the middle. They won every clearance. Lenny Hayes is one of my favourites. Though he is one of the worst shots on goal going around, he is a dominant midfielder who hits targets and wins hard ball. He is the hardest working player I know. Pendlebury will have to watch him closely but also win a lot of his own footy. Should be a great head to head matchup.

Swan v Jones – I think the Saints will send Clint Jones onto Swan. The option will obviously also be there for him to tag Didak or Davis or even Pendlebury, but I think the Saints number 1 tagger will go onto the Magpies number 1 ball-winner. Jones has had a brilliant year and really found a place in the Saints side as a tagger. Swan on the other hand is brownlow favourite and has been able to outrun every tagger this year. It would be an unbelievable battle between the ultimate stopper and the ultimate runner/ballwinner. No doubt that Swan was a bit down last week and the Bulldogs were really able to win in the midfield.

Swan will have a tough week. He is in court in a civil matter regarding the criminal offence he was charged for. The offence occurred 6 years ago. He is now been sued in civil jurisdiction for the damages the victim incurred. No comment will be made about the case, but it does mean Swan will have a modified training routine this week as he will not be able to train with the main group. This may have some impact on his preparation. It is important to remember that this incident happened 6 years ago when Swan was new on the Collingwood list and had issues. He is a true football success story how he has turned his life around and matured.


Dal Santo v Johnson – Collingwood won’t set many tags, but they no doubt have to put a tag on Dal Santo. 2 weeks ago, the Roo’s were able to limit him to 9 touches. Greenwood did this job. Last week, Dal Santo ran rampant without a tag. The Demons instead elected to tag Montagna, who must now be considered St.Kilda’s prime mover. This is fair enough, but Dal Santo is much more taggable and is so damaging. It’s better to ensure he is shut out, and perhaps go head to head with Montagna.

Montagna v Wellingham – I think Wellingham should be entrusted with the role of running with Montagna. Joey is in such good form and is a real dark-horse for the Brownlow. I have loved watching him play this year. Many would know I have been a long time fan of Montagna, and he has repaid the faith this year. Wellingham is holding onto his position by a thread, so he may be dropped. But given St.Kilda’s incredible midfield, I think Collingwood will need him playing tight on Montagna.

Thomas v Goddard: Goddard may try to play loose in defence. Collingwood would be foolish to allow this to happen, even if it means Maxwell is freed up in the process. Thomas should go defensive forward on him, as he did against Drummond. If Goddard goes midfield, then Thomas follows. Thomas has not been in his best attacking form of late, but he is improving defensively and has done tagging jobs this year, including taking the scalp of Judd in tandem with Johnson. Goddard is such a crucial player and must be watched. I think best case scenario for Collingwood would be having Maxwell loose, and the Saints having Gilbert loose. You would call this close to an even battle considering Maxwell is better at backing into packs and Gilbert is more creative.

Didak v Dempster – I think Dempster will get this role over Jones because he is has an ability to play as a defender as well, whereas I think Jones can be exploited if Didak moves forward. Lyon obviously rates Dempster very highly as he brought him over from Sydney and has put him straight into the team after a knee reconstruction. With guys like Armitage, Steve and Geary all pushing for spots, it goes to show how important Dempster is considered to the team with his ability to do shut down jobs. Didak had a poor game against the Bulldogs and will be looking to make amends.

Obviously Didak did not play in the finals series last year and will be very keen to shine on the big stage. He has had a great year following a disastrous one last year, and has repaid the faith the club has shown in him. This will be yet another intriguing battle if it eventuates.


Collingwood Forward Line

I have been strongly advocating the return of Anthony Rocca this match. I think the reasons become more clear as I go through the matchups. I will proceed on the basis that he is NOT included in the team (which honestly is the likely scenario), and then I will ponder the possibilities if he IS included.

Hudghton/Dawson v Anthony – I feel only 1 of these 2 defender will play, and their job will be on the Magpies leading goal-kicker Jack Anthony. Anthony has refound his touch in the last month but is still not back to his best goal-kicking form. He has discovered an ability to involve himself in games even when he is not kicking goals which is impressive. His weakness however has been against the best defenders, which Hudghton is. Hudghton is one of the toughest players to score goals against, so if he gets this matchup, Anthony will have to work Max over. Equally if the Dawson matchup eventuates.

Cloke v Blake – Saints have used this matchup in the past with great success. However, Cloke is spending a large amount of his time these days up the field...including deep defence. Therefore, as it will be interesting to see if the Saints follow Cloke down...perhaps using someone like Gilbert or Fisher to run with him...or whether they zone back off him and let Cloke wander. Cloke will have too much pace for Blake around the ground, but its the matchup in the forward line that is of most interest.

Medhurst v Fisher – The matchup would work equally well with Gilbert. The Saints would’ve watched the Doggies game with interest and seen Ryan Hargrave win a ridiculous amount of the ball. It is the 2nd time this year Hargrave has had more than 30 possessions playing on Medhurst. Therefore, you would think the Saints would use Fisher or Gilbert in this role as they are the experts at peeling off and generating play out of defence. Medhurst is in terrible form. Though his involvement and fitness during games is improving, his goal-kicking is horrible. He cannot find the goals at the moment and is missing the easiest of set-shots. He is paid to convert, so I’m wondering how patient Mick will be with him. The hope will be that he will lift on the big stage as he has done on ANZAC day in the past. The important thing is that Medhurst is at least more accountable this week and looks to create. He is still responsible for a number of scoring assists over the last month which has been pleasing.

Davis v Baker – If Dick is dropped as I suspect, I think we’ll see more of Davis up forward (especially if Rocca plays). Baker plays the small defensive role and will probably take responsibility for Davis in that position. I think the Saints will be happy for him to win the ball in defence and behind centre...though they may be more cautious of him around the middle. The beauty of the Saints is that they have 3 genuine tagging type players along with a host of attacking midfielders. Collingwood perhaps lack those designated taggers right now. Davis is extremely important. He was another who was down against the Bulldogs and we all know that he doesn’t possess the best finals record. This has been by far his career best year and he has been extremely consistent, but its the finals where he needs to find his best nick. He’ll be an extremely tough matchup for St.Kilda if he hits form.

Gram v Lockyer – Jason Gram has snuck under the radar a bit this year. He is such an important player for the Saints because he is a rebounding back flanker, but he can also break the game open with a long goal. He has spent more time in the midfield this year. Lockyer is the other who continually sneaks under the radar. There are very few weeks where he is not a goal-kicker, and he is usually reliable with ball in hand. I would use him on Gram, and try to make Gram accountable. Teams are surely waking up to the fact that Lockyer’s 2-3 a game are crucial to a Magpies win, so Gram would be very careful leaving him alone. Lockyer lifts for these games and is a fantastic tackler as well.



This ultimately leaves Gilbert free for St.Kilda and Maxwell free for Collingwood.

Now, if Rocca was in, this could change things. Firstly, Saints would have to either use Hudghton, Dawson, Fisher or Blake on him. As Rocca would most likely park himself in the goal-square, Max or Dawson would most likely get the job. Especially if Dawson plays, Rocca would still fancy this matchup. Or, the Saints would back in Fisher to do this job and run off him, which in turn forces Gilbert to man up on Medhurst. It atleast eliminates St.Kilda’s spare man. The worry would be the ability to run off Rocca. This is not a huge worry with either Hudghton or Dawson. If the job goes to Fisher, then it may be Anthony’s role to run with him up the field. I think the Collingwood forwards would hold their positions, so if Fisher runs off, it is Anthony who would follow and leave Rocca on Hudghton down back.

The Saints love loose men in defence...so playing the 3 talls and 3 smalls ensures no loose guys. They may be forced to bring Goddard back if they want to get someone loose, and again I would send Thomas back to man him up. It’s a risk, but that forward line is dangerous.






The Big Issues

There are a number of talking points leading into this year’s finals series.

1. Is the bump dead?

Matty Lloyd has copped his rightful whack for his bump on Brad Sewell. What he did must be contrasted with what Buddy Franklin as he ran off his line to make the contact. Lloyd’s bump may have won his team the game. It left the Hawks 2 short on the bench. However, the cost of winning the game is the loss of Matthew Lloyd.

You would hope that in one of the more hotly contested finals series of the last decade that the umps put the whistle away, and the MRP use common sense if a few bumps are dished out. I would hate to see Travis Cloke rubbed out for doing what Franklin did...especially in the latter end of September.

Will the players put the bump away for finals due to the risk of missing crunch games? Or will the bump be on show as sides try to impose themselves on the competition? Either way, the Matthew Lloyd bump was reportable in any era.


2. Is Adelaide a genuine premiership threat?

This is of massive importance to Collingwood and St.Kilda, as the loser has to face Adelaide, providing they account for the undermanned Essendon side. There is a huge risk that the loser of the qualifying final will be bowled out in straight sets, so it makes winning on Sunday so much more important.

For what it’s worth, I still think Adelaide is a rank behind the top 4. The biggest scalp they have taken over the last 2 months is Carlton, and their defence is very suspect right now. St.Kilda, Collingwood and Geelong still possess defences that are more capable of playing on the likes of Burton, Porplyzia etc.

But they are back to full strength and look a real threat. But I don’t think we all need to go panicking given their win on the weekend. Carlton are still a year off being ready, and Adelaide simply punched holes through their weak defence and attacking midfield.


3. Can Geelong go all the way?

There is no doubt the Cats are still 2nd favourites for the flag. But I think the key for them is to get over the line against the Bulldogs. They have looked vulnerable against the Dogs twice this year, and the Dogs look in really sharp form and should be full strength.

The Cats will be without Steve Johnson, whilst Rooke and Chapman will be 50/50’s. The Cat’s desperately need the win this weekend. A fortnight’s rest should mean they will be 100% fit for the preliminary, with Steve Johnson due back by then. It also gives the underdone Brad Ottens a fortnight to recover from his biggest test this year. Rooke and Chapman will definitely be over their issues as well. They then look really dangerous for the Preliminary final. The loser of Collingwood and St.Kilda is a big chance to meet them in the preliminaries provided they beat the Doggies.

But the Bulldogs did the job against Collingwood and would be over the moon at facing Geelong this Saturday. They have a shorter break than Geelong which could be an issue, but ultimately their list is in better condition and Geelong are still looking very vulnerable. It will go a long way to proving how genuine the Dogs are this year and whether they can win a flag without a tall forward.



The Wrap Up

I’m pumped. I’ll be sitting in AFL members for anyone sitting around there that wants to come say hello. As I said, the season goes back to square now, and the Home & Away ladder counts for very little. Tickets are selling very very fast.

I proved last week that I am a complete jinx when it comes to tipping. I said the Pies would lose but by less than 24, therefore maintaining 3rd spot. They lost by exactly 24. My apologies Pies fans, I take blame.

Therefore, no mucking around this week...the Saints by 30.

By David Natoli
Aka DaVe86



Appendix:

As I finalise this piece, I notice that both Hudghton and Ball trained with the VFL side and therefore look highly unlikely to take their place in the side.
the same analysis as nicks bulletin board .are you the same person?. really impressive ,ccongratulations.


bergholt
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7356
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004 9:25am

Post: # 809108Post bergholt »

nobhead, did you seriously just quote that entire post to write one line? living up to your name.


nobhead
Club Player
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed 19 Aug 2009 11:46am
Been thanked: 31 times

chill

Post: # 809112Post nobhead »

bergholt wrote:nobhead, did you seriously just quote that entire post to write one line? living up to your name.
mate relax .too hard to scroll down the page is it ?.


nobhead
Club Player
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed 19 Aug 2009 11:46am
Been thanked: 31 times

new at this

Post: # 809113Post nobhead »

btw im new at this .learning as i go i apologize for any inconvienience.


Moods
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
Has thanked: 335 times
Been thanked: 481 times

Post: # 809157Post Moods »

DaVe86 wrote:like i said in the Dane Swan thread...

He came to the club a bit of a hood. He was also uneducated. Its probably why he went so low in the draft.

He is actually a positive AFL story. Came into the game a lout, and he has turned out to be a mature and sensible player. He has turned his life and his career around in 6 years.

What he did will haunt him the rest of his life. Like in any walks of life, a criminal conviction never goes away. It will always affect career prospects...in Swan's circumstance he will never be considered leadership material.

But if it were not for football, Swan would've ended up in jail. But credit to the system for ensuring Swan was given the best possible chance. I always credit Collingwood for sticking with him.

Through incidents involving guys like Shaw, Swan, Wellingham and Didak, the club has stuck behind them. Many have criticised these decisions, but utlimately all have become good players and are seemingly on the mends.

It's actually a credit to the AFL and a welcome reminder of the good part of football which is never discussed in the media.
I agree Dave. ALL AFL clubs have their rough diamonds, and the saints over the years have been no exception. What Swan did can not be condoned or excused in any way shape or form, but I've read a couple of articles on him, and he appears to have turned his life around. AFL is made up of all types.

Of course what Matrix cutter states is true as well - you know right for wrong at age 19. Doesn't mean you have the maturity or wisdom or the luxury of guidance to care at that age. THis is why the courts are far more lenient on juvenile and younger offenders than what they would be on a guy in his mid 30's.


User avatar
InkerSaint
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed 07 Jan 2009 3:06pm

Re: new at this

Post: # 809193Post InkerSaint »

nobhead wrote:btw im new at this .learning as i go i apologize for any inconvienience.
Fair enough but to answer your other question, yes it is a major pain in the ar$e to scroll through all of that (a second time). Would you mind editing your post to shorten or remove the quote? Cheers.


"... You want to pose a threat to the opposition in as many ways as you can, both defensively and offensively. We've got a responsibility to explore all those possibilities - and we will."
nobhead
Club Player
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed 19 Aug 2009 11:46am
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: new at this

Post: # 809198Post nobhead »

InkerSaint wrote:
nobhead wrote:btw im new at this .learning as i go i apologize for any inconvienience.
Fair enough but to answer your other question, yes it is a major pain in the ar$e to scroll through all of that (a second time). Would you mind editing your post to shorten or remove the quote? Cheers.
no worries .


User avatar
InkerSaint
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed 07 Jan 2009 3:06pm

Post: # 809200Post InkerSaint »

Solar wrote:first thing I noticed and it's a very important mistake is our game plan.

We do not "force teams wide". In fact, and well spotted by gary lyon during the season, we force teams to work back through the middle of the ground. This allows our marking midfielders and flankers to intercept the ball coming out. Add frontal pessure making the kick out of defense not always 100% there is a big scope for turnovers. If the opposition can move the ball with pecision they can get over the zone and there is always room behind the saints zone for forwards. Collingwood will not play by this and will work down the wings. Look for alot of boundary throw ins and packs around the wings. The saints will look at working back through the middle once they get to the 50 but they also use the wings.
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/rfnews ... 06516.html

Welcome back Dave86. I actually thought the Saints and Pies would not meet until the Prelim at earliest.

IIRC the rest of your family are Sainters? Interesting week in the household...


"... You want to pose a threat to the opposition in as many ways as you can, both defensively and offensively. We've got a responsibility to explore all those possibilities - and we will."
python
Club Player
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue 26 Aug 2008 5:37pm

Post: # 809206Post python »

Good analysis, just one question, if goddard goes up forward, do you have thomas following him there? I would love for that to happen, imo, thomas is the most overrated player going around, and although he may have had some good defensive jobs this year, him on goddard in our forward line, well, id expect goddard to kick at least 3.


Thinline
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6043
Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 5:31pm
Location: Currumbin, Quoinslairnd

Post: # 809213Post Thinline »

bergholt wrote:good post that one, thanks mate.

on the other hand, this is a bad post:
Thinline wrote:And as for Swan - Leopard. Spots. Sorry, but as good as he may have been, I have little time for anyone who involves themselves in that kind of thing.
you're saying that he can't have made a mistake at the age of 19 and a half, and then learnt better as he grew up? you didn't make any mistakes in your teenage years which you then stopped making later?

guess he should just be locked up and the key thrown away, then, if there's no possible chance of rehabilitation.

that's a very inflexible attitude.
In my mind, the bloke's a lowlife thug and I don't care how much rehab you do and leg ups you get, the unwarranted belting of an outnumbered bloke is something inescapably inexcusable. Hope the memory haunts him to the grave.

Sorry. Line's gotta be drawn with that kind of s**t.

For too long people have had their hands slapped. Now look where things are at.

How innocent were you at 19, champ?

Reckon I had a fair handle on the right and wrong of pack-whacking people.

What about you?


"The inches we need are everywhere around us. They're in every break in the game. Every minute, every second. On this team we fight for that inch. On this team we tear ourselves and everyone around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Because we know when we add up all those inches that's gonna make the f***in' difference between winning and losing! Between living and dying!'
User avatar
InkerSaint
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed 07 Jan 2009 3:06pm

Re: The Ultimate QF Match Preview - Saints v Pies

Post: # 809220Post InkerSaint »

DaVe86 wrote:Collingwood would have been eyeing off 3rd spot and thus a qualifying final against Geelong. I think an extra point against the Western Bulldogs would’ve sealed this. However, to the Bulldogs credit, they were able to storm home in the 2nd half to pinch 3rd spot off the Magpies.
In fact Collingwood needed another 3 points.

The margin to beat was 22 points. If Collingwood scored between 17 and 129 points that's how much the Doggies needed to win by. If the Pies scored 130 the Dogs would have needed 151.


"... You want to pose a threat to the opposition in as many ways as you can, both defensively and offensively. We've got a responsibility to explore all those possibilities - and we will."
bergholt
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7356
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004 9:25am

Post: # 809245Post bergholt »

Thinline wrote:For too long people have had their hands slapped. Now look where things are at.

How innocent were you at 19, champ?

Reckon I had a fair handle on the right and wrong of pack-whacking people.

What about you?
yeah, i reckon i knew right from wrong. of course, i had a pretty comfortable and advantaged childhood so it was easy for me. my mates weren't the type who'd do those sort of things.

but i know a couple of people who got shat on by life all through growing up, addicted to drugs early, hanging out with bad, bad crowds, involved in crime, etc. there's only so much "choice" they made to do that stuff given the environment they were in and how young they were.

but they've worked really hard to get out of that space. i really respect that. but by your logic, these guys are still tainted by what they did years ago - things that they regret.

if you're never going to let them get over it then there's no point them changing at all in the first place. once you've done one bad thing, might as well just keep doing it because people are never going to believe that you're straight. so it's impossible to get out.


Thinline
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6043
Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 5:31pm
Location: Currumbin, Quoinslairnd

Post: # 809268Post Thinline »

I do query the power of regret when punishment for ugly, unnecessary violence is so pis-weak.

And the 'right from wrong' debate is ridiculous in a sense. Accused individuals always cloud the water with this insane mitigation argument - oh my dad used to slap me around therefore its okay if I do too/ I'm only young and I erred temporarily becasue I was full of Vodka Breezers.

Absolute bullshyte.

Individuals need to be called to account for their actions. The system has devolved to read too much into the individuals perfectly good ability to decide between good and bad.

Like him or not, Phil Cleary - the ex MP and Coburg coach dude - talks a incredibly persuasively about this on the question of sexual assault and violent/abusive crime against women.

Right from wrong is rarely a difficult distinction. Re Swan. Did he do it? Yep. Was he punisheded adequately at first instance? Arguably not.

Why? Now there's a can of worms: legal and social.

Maybe he would be more harshly dealt with now. Frankly - and I know it sounds pompous - but I bloody well hope so.

And I fully acknowledge a personal vested interest in this debate as I have a sister still bearing the scars of being in the wrong place at a the wrong time when a drunk decided to shove a glass into someones head and missed and got my sister's shoulder instead. Plastic surgery x 3 and 52 sutures/staples later and all sorts of post incident trauma later...That bastard - well his lawyer - argued 'inadequate upbringing and absence of role models.' That bastard eventually got a suspended sentence. That bastard was pissing himself laughing at his good fortune on the steps of the courthouse afterwards. It kind of alters the old empathy gland when you are on the a-se end of what's fair.

Anyhow, this horse has been flogged for too long and the flogging is futile.

It won't change anything today.

Back to more interesting things - like football.


"The inches we need are everywhere around us. They're in every break in the game. Every minute, every second. On this team we fight for that inch. On this team we tear ourselves and everyone around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Because we know when we add up all those inches that's gonna make the f***in' difference between winning and losing! Between living and dying!'
User avatar
InkerSaint
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed 07 Jan 2009 3:06pm

Post: # 809295Post InkerSaint »

bergholt wrote:if you're never going to let them get over it then there's no point them changing at all in the first place. once you've done one bad thing, might as well just keep doing it because people are never going to believe that you're straight. so it's impossible to get out.
I apologise for continuing off-topic but I just want to say frankly, I have f#%$-all sympathy for perpetrators of violence and abuse... what are their victims forced to get over?

The fact that violence on the streets is increasing to me means that the wrong message is being sent out by our judicial system.

If Dane Swan was an average joe the case wouldn't even make the papers.

Sorry... but f#%@ thugs.


"... You want to pose a threat to the opposition in as many ways as you can, both defensively and offensively. We've got a responsibility to explore all those possibilities - and we will."
35...LEGEND
Club Player
Posts: 1165
Joined: Tue 11 Apr 2006 9:45pm
Location: Tassies Wild West
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 809354Post 35...LEGEND »

Thinline wrote:
squiz wrote:Good read
Lockyer would get 5 goals on Gram though.
We need a better matchup for Lockyer. No team seems to have one.
And I hate it.
No team bothers matching up on Lockyer because he ain't often particularly damaging. He'll snag one goal here and there, but so what? He plays forward of the contest and preys on lucky bounces and uncontested crumbs. Perhaps that's his role, I don't know and care little. To my eyes he rarely wins ball or sets up attacking forays. He's also not tall or overly quick. IMO he's lucky to be in their first 22. I emphasises, though....IMO....
aaaah yes, Tarkyn,or is that Lurkyn Lockyer.....the guy would rather run away from a contest than toward's one.
Whoever get's him will need eyes in the back of their head.
He will drop off and scoot forward (roll the dice )at every opportunity.........his type was called a cheat when I was pullin the boot's on.
Dangerous player during turnover's and quick clearances

And the Hot Potato effort v the dog's Sunday.............priceless :lol: ......don't think he likes to be tackled,....just hoping someone(Gilbo special would be nice) can lay a cruncher on him Sun. :twisted:

P.S. don't go much on him :lol:


DaVe86
Club Player
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue 05 May 2009 1:15pm

Post: # 809398Post DaVe86 »

InkerSaint wrote:
Solar wrote:first thing I noticed and it's a very important mistake is our game plan.

We do not "force teams wide". In fact, and well spotted by gary lyon during the season, we force teams to work back through the middle of the ground. This allows our marking midfielders and flankers to intercept the ball coming out. Add frontal pessure making the kick out of defense not always 100% there is a big scope for turnovers. If the opposition can move the ball with pecision they can get over the zone and there is always room behind the saints zone for forwards. Collingwood will not play by this and will work down the wings. Look for alot of boundary throw ins and packs around the wings. The saints will look at working back through the middle once they get to the 50 but they also use the wings.
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/rfnews ... 06516.html

Welcome back Dave86. I actually thought the Saints and Pies would not meet until the Prelim at earliest.

IIRC the rest of your family are Sainters? Interesting week in the household...

Its a very interesting week in my family. My mum and I are Collingwood, dad and his family are St.Kilda. We have decided not to go together! We are sitting at opposite ends of the ground.




On Dane Swan...i am a bit confused at what you guys are implying??? Are you saying he should be sacked??? Because that's a pretty silly comment considering that the incident occurred 6 years ago and he has obviously turned his life around.


You can dislike him, but I'm not quite sure what you guys want him to do now. He was charged for his crime and served his punishment...now he faces further civil action 6 years after the fact. This was a criminal case, and therefore a matter for the Law to decide.


There is no way I would've done anything like that at 19. But then again I surrounded myself around the right people and had a good upbringing. 6 years on from this incident, Swan has well and truly taken every step towards turning his life around and has also become a mighty fine player in the process.


DaVe86
Club Player
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue 05 May 2009 1:15pm

Post: # 809400Post DaVe86 »

nobhead...yes that is me on the Nicks BB. I also put this up on a few BigFooty boards.


Thinline
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6043
Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 5:31pm
Location: Currumbin, Quoinslairnd

Post: # 809432Post Thinline »

DaVe86 wrote:
InkerSaint wrote:

On Dane Swan...i am a bit confused at what you guys are implying??? Are you saying he should be sacked??? Because that's a pretty silly comment considering that the incident occurred 6 years ago and he has obviously turned his life around.


You can dislike him, but I'm not quite sure what you guys want him to do now. He was charged for his crime and served his punishment...now he faces further civil action 6 years after the fact. This was a criminal case, and therefore a matter for the Law to decide.


There is no way I would've done anything like that at 19. But then again I surrounded myself around the right people and had a good upbringing. 6 years on from this incident, Swan has well and truly taken every step towards turning his life around and has also become a mighty fine player in the process.
The gist, to summarise, is he was lucky as f**k not to go to jail and most reasonable folk couldn't give a rats if he feels bad about being a coward, a label that sticks long and hard. But other than that good on him for being good at sport. Christ help him if he wasn't.


"The inches we need are everywhere around us. They're in every break in the game. Every minute, every second. On this team we fight for that inch. On this team we tear ourselves and everyone around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Because we know when we add up all those inches that's gonna make the f***in' difference between winning and losing! Between living and dying!'
User avatar
InkerSaint
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed 07 Jan 2009 3:06pm

Post: # 809435Post InkerSaint »

DaVe86 wrote:On Dane Swan...i am a bit confused at what you guys are implying??? Are you saying he should be sacked??? Because that's a pretty silly comment considering that the incident occurred 6 years ago and he has obviously turned his life around.
I don't think anyone's implied that... and Swan has earned his place as a professional athlete through hard work. And we can argue about the Law, and its shortcomings... and society's responsibility to the individual, and the individual's responsibility to society... you suggest that Swan has copped his right whack. Everyone's allowed their own opinion on the matter.


"... You want to pose a threat to the opposition in as many ways as you can, both defensively and offensively. We've got a responsibility to explore all those possibilities - and we will."
DaVe86
Club Player
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue 05 May 2009 1:15pm

Post: # 809813Post DaVe86 »

InkerSaint wrote:
DaVe86 wrote:On Dane Swan...i am a bit confused at what you guys are implying??? Are you saying he should be sacked??? Because that's a pretty silly comment considering that the incident occurred 6 years ago and he has obviously turned his life around.
I don't think anyone's implied that... and Swan has earned his place as a professional athlete through hard work. And we can argue about the Law, and its shortcomings... and society's responsibility to the individual, and the individual's responsibility to society... you suggest that Swan has copped his right whack. Everyone's allowed their own opinion on the matter.
I personally don't think Swan copped his right whack. Truth is he got off very lightly. He is also bloody lucky to have survived on our list.

But in hindsight, the fact that he had AFL football has probably saved him because he would've headed down the wrong path time after time and would not have been so lucky a 2nd time.


User avatar
Ghost Like
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6562
Joined: Wed 19 Sep 2007 10:04pm
Has thanked: 5788 times
Been thanked: 1909 times

Post: # 809870Post Ghost Like »

Enjoyed the read Dave, well written yet again. Although I disagree with some of the match ups, i.e. I think Hayes and Swan to go head to head as I expect CJ to go to Davis as I believe Davis getting 25 touches is much more damaging than Swan getting 40.

We do have our worries matching up on your smaller forwards, Didak, Davis, Medhurst and Lockyer, even Thomas could create some enormous headaches if you get on top in the middle. Gram is probably too loose, Bakes not in the best form and slowing down. Hopefully Rocca does play as our match ups will be a bit easier to find.

Also had a wry smile about your O'brien v Milne analysis, I'll be wrapped if Milne only gets 13 touches and kicks 3 or 4! Plus from memory didn't the Saints rotate Milne and Schneider through O'brien last time? I thought Harry had a shocker and was found wanting on our small forwards but then again alot has changed since last time but I hope not too much.


Post Reply