Third tall / Lead up forward

[The darkness]

For reasons unknown we still have not settled on, or experimented enough with a person who can play this role with some sort of confidence or authority.
Gwilt has had his chances and seems unwilling to make this spot his own, even though I think he is the best body type for the spot. I feel that this position/role is a vital key to the whole structure of both defense and forward line as this person provides the link between the two and takes pressure off Roo in that he can stay closer to goal where he is most dangerous and effective. If Gwilt is not in this role who is the next option ?
Shneider and Milne do play up the ground and rotate/alternate forward but are not midsize leading forwards .
Sure BJ can go forward and we can swing a few others through there but its a small concern for me that we have still not consolidated this position/role for anyone as of yet..Thoughts

[Mr Magic]

I actually disagree about where Roo is his most dangerous.
I believe that early in the game, Roo's most damaging work is done on his continual long searching leads where his opponent is 'put to the sword' fitness wise.
Having watched Roo a lot he seems to 'put the question' to his opponent early and then when the defender is found wanting in his ability to keep up with him, Roo then goes closer to goal.

I think this is a deliberate tactic by Roo and Tudor has set the forward line up around it. The third tall (HFF) is then not so necessary in this scenario. We need someone who can keep the third tall's oppnent (Harley, Maxwell, Hargraves etc) honest so that he cannot zone off and become the 'go-to' outlet player. It's almost become a taller defensive version of McQualter.

If we had an O'Keefe type player on our list then I'm sure we would have a different structure in our forward line. Currently other teams do not seem to pay much respect to Gwilt, believing that we will not use him as a first, second or even third option when going forward.

[Milton66]

Can someone please explain what a "lead up forward" actually is?

[Iceman234]

Can someone please explain what a "lead up forward" actually is?

Fair question milton66, and a term often used and maybe misunderstood.

I could be (and probably am) completely wrong but I would describe it as :

Also known as a "hit-up" forward,

a 183-190cm "half forward flanker" who can lead from the 25-35 metre mark, taking a top 3 defender with him to the 65-70 metre mark.

Ideally a strong mark, good hands, solid through the hips and can swing both sides and drill the ball to "the spot" that the big two should be at.

Can then immediately turn on the forward pressure should the ball rebound, and at the same time having enough impact to make the oppo coach consider putting a top 1 or 2 defender on him.

Just my take on what I've thought to be that type of player.

[Animal Enclosure]

A lead up forward is the player that provides an option across the forward side of centre wing as the ball is coming out of the half backline. Many believe that having Gwilt, etc as this option allows Roo & Kosi to play within goal scoring range.

While Roo can play this role better than any other forward in the league, it's pretty handy to have him with fwd 50.

On the O.P I think we have experimented quite a bit with players in this role- Gwilt, BJ, Chips, Gilby, Dempster and this will give us a few different options come next month.

Tom Lynch will be a ripper in this role in future years too.

[The darkness]

I actually disagree about where Roo is his most dangerous.
I believe that early in the game, Roo's most damaging work is done on his continual long searching leads where his opponent is 'put to the sword' fitness wise.
Having watched Roo a lot he seems to 'put the question' to his opponent early and then when the defender is found wanting in his ability to keep up with him, Roo then goes closer to goal.

I think this is a deliberate tactic by Roo and Tudor has set the forward line up around it. The third tall (HFF) is then not so necessary in this scenario. We need someone who can keep the third tall's oppnent (Harley, Maxwell, Hargraves etc) honest so that he cannot zone off and become the 'go-to' outlet player. It's almost become a taller defensive version of McQualter.

If we had an O'Keefe type player on our list then I'm sure we would have a different structure in our forward line. Currently other teams do not seem to pay much respect to Gwilt, believing that we will not use him as a first, second or even third option when going forward.

MM I hear your thoughts about Roo and how he plays in the first half but what about the 2nd half when he does play closer to goal ? Who then becomes the lead up forward or third tall that makes the opposition half back accountable offensively ?

[Milton66]

Can someone please explain what a "lead up forward" actually is?

Fair question milton66, and a term often used and maybe misunderstood.

I could be (and probably am) completely wrong but I would describe it as :

Also known as a "hit-up" forward,

a 183-190cm "half forward flanker" who can lead from the 25-35 metre mark, taking a top 3 defender with him to the 65-70 metre mark.

Ideally a strong mark, good hands, solid through the hips and can swing both sides and drill the ball to "the spot" that the big two should be at.

Can then immediately turn on the forward pressure should the ball rebound, and at the same time having enough impact to make the oppo coach consider putting a top 1 or 2 defender on him.

Just my take on what I've thought to be that type of player.

It seems to have become a buzzword like "decoy".

I think it's a mid size fwd who gets the 3rd best defender. But then again, I reckon Milne would be that person.

[Iceman234]

Can someone please explain what a "lead up forward" actually is?

Fair question milton66, and a term often used and maybe misunderstood.

I could be (and probably am) completely wrong but I would describe it as :

Also known as a "hit-up" forward,

a 183-190cm "half forward flanker" who can lead from the 25-35 metre mark, taking a top 3 defender with him to the 65-70 metre mark.

Ideally a strong mark, good hands, solid through the hips and can swing both sides and drill the ball to "the spot" that the big two should be at.

Can then immediately turn on the forward pressure should the ball rebound, and at the same time having enough impact to make the oppo coach consider putting a top 1 or 2 defender on him.

Just my take on what I've thought to be that type of player.

It seems to have become a buzzword like "decoy".

I think it's a mid size fwd who gets the 3rd best defender. But then again, I reckon Milne would be that person.

No, Milney is a "small forward".

The "third tall" is a buzz word, correct, bit like "loading" (as I am doing with beer til the end of September) then "tapering" (with beer in October), before the real deal in December...

[The darkness]

A lead up forward is the player that provides an option across the forward side of centre wing as the ball is coming out of the half backline. Many believe that having Gwilt, etc as this option allows Roo & Kosi to play within goal scoring range.

While Roo can play this role better than any other forward in the league, it's pretty handy to have him with fwd 50.

On the O.P I think we have experimented quite a bit with players in this role- Gwilt, BJ, Chips, Gilby, Dempster and this will give us a few different options come next month.

Tom Lynch will be a ripper in this role in future years too.

Yes we have experimented with the above that you have mentioned but other than Gwilt all of the others have played anything from 1/4 to maybe 1 game at that position.
In last years 2 losing finals we were exposed in this position and im sure its a role/position that Ross and co have identified, though we still do not have a definitive player for this position...Just hope we are not repeating mistakes of the past..Was hoping for a Ryan Gamble type to take this role and yes I think Lynch fits the bill though still green and no chance of entering the fray at this stage of the season..
So then we are back to where we started..

[rexy]

Agree that this is one of our missing ingredients, Lynch looks to be the long term answer. Gwilt does everything except hold enough marks. Dempster doesnt kick the ball well enough. BJ to valuable further up the ground. Gilbert and Fisher look lost IMO.

[Iceman234]

Gwilt does everything except hold enough marks.

I have been a critic of Gwilt in the past, yet I really rate his hands and his left foot. Some of his marks are like he has spidy gloves on overhead. And that kick is just awesome.

But he just doesn't get dangerous enough to take anymore than the 4th or 5th defender most times IMO, can't turn on a coin and doesn't chase hard enough.

Come good in the next month JG and I'll forever be a fan.

[saint66au]

Just as an aside, its interesting that players are happy to kick the ball to Milne as a forward target one-out. Whilst Milney is likely to be shorter than his opponent, his use of his body in a marking contest is excellent, especially in leading his opponent under the ball. Hes more than likely to bring the ball to ground...at which time he becomes lethal

[vacuous space]

We've been using mostly one- and two-tall setups for most of the year. On occasions where we have used three talls it's been Goddard or a resting ruckman (Gardiner, McEvoy) who has played as the third tall. I think we'll stick with as few talls as possible in finals to maximise pressure on the opposition and force turnovers. I don't think we'll worry about rolling defenders - we haven't done much about them all year.

I don't think Gwilt's role is to play as a tall. He actually does better at ground level than he does overhead. He's got a large frame, but he doesn't use it often. The way he plays ends up being more like Schneider than Roo or Kosi. Gwilt's a good user of the footy, but if he's going to make the jump from a fringe player to a regular player he's going to have to get more footy, whether by getting more footy from his teammates or finding more of it himself.

[desertsaint]

as an example - for the hawks, barry hall has been touted as a potential lead up forward, along with buddy, to allow roughead to play deeper near the goal square.
i reckon steve johnson fits the bill perfectly - if only mooney and hawkins were better.

who do we have as an option? no one really comes to mind.
Gwilt hasn't shown enough unfortunately.
Hope we look closely at this come draft time.

[PJ]

and can swing both sides

Why would his sexual preference be of any concern?

[rexy]

as an example - for the hawks, barry hall has been touted as a potential lead up forward, along with buddy, to allow roughead to play deeper near the goal square.
i reckon steve johnson fits the bill perfectly - if only mooney and hawkins were better.

who do we have as an option? no one really comes to mind.
Gwilt hasn't shown enough unfortunately.
Hope we look closely at this come draft time.

Gee I hope Hawthorn do that, would make their forward line easier to escape IMO. Hall Roughead and Franklin sharing the 50 would be far to top heavy.

[Iceman234]

as an example - for the hawks, barry hall has been touted as a potential lead up forward, along with buddy, to allow roughead to play deeper near the goal square.
i reckon steve johnson fits the bill perfectly - if only mooney and hawkins were better.

who do we have as an option? no one really comes to mind.
Gwilt hasn't shown enough unfortunately.
Hope we look closely at this come draft time.

A clone of Roo, he is the model "lead-up forward", while taller than my model, he has it all. Seriously.

If only we had 2-5 of him.

Lynch and Heyne have certainly shown glimpses in the VFL, who knows with a big pre-season into those guys. Obviously picked up for certain roles.

[rexy]

Gwilt does everything except hold enough marks.

I have been a critic of Gwilt in the past, yet I really rate his hands and his left foot. Some of his marks are like he has spidy gloves on overhead. And that kick is just awesome.

But he just doesn't get dangerous enough to take anymore than the 4th or 5th defender most times IMO, can't turn on a coin and doesn't chase hard enough.

Come good in the next month JG and I'll forever be a fan.

Dont actually think he has bad hands, just rarely holds the marking opportunities close to goal. The ones that would make him dangerous and really force his man to stay with him.

Havent got any stats or anything just rarely seems to get a set shot IMO.

[Mr Magic]

I actually disagree about where Roo is his most dangerous.
I believe that early in the game, Roo's most damaging work is done on his continual long searching leads where his opponent is 'put to the sword' fitness wise.
Having watched Roo a lot he seems to 'put the question' to his opponent early and then when the defender is found wanting in his ability to keep up with him, Roo then goes closer to goal.

I think this is a deliberate tactic by Roo and Tudor has set the forward line up around it. The third tall (HFF) is then not so necessary in this scenario. We need someone who can keep the third tall's oppnent (Harley, Maxwell, Hargraves etc) honest so that he cannot zone off and become the 'go-to' outlet player. It's almost become a taller defensive version of McQualter.

If we had an O'Keefe type player on our list then I'm sure we would have a different structure in our forward line. Currently other teams do not seem to pay much respect to Gwilt, believing that we will not use him as a first, second or even third option when going forward.

MM I hear your thoughts about Roo and how he plays in the first half but what about the 2nd half when he does play closer to goal ? Who then becomes the lead up forward or third tall that makes the opposition half back accountable offensively ?

I think our coaching staff have come up with a differnet system of moving the ball in the second half.
It may just be my imagination but I have the feeling that BJ and his booming 50-60m kicks seem to occur more in teh second half than the first?
I reckon in the second half (after Roo has 'burned' his opponent) and he starts closer to goal we actually change the way we deliver the ball into teh forward line.
I think that Roo uses multiple short leads rather than the long searching runs of the first half.
I aslo think that the delivery from the HB line is longer (hence the increased use of BJ, Dal, Joey and Gram) to hit targets closer to goal.

I just think that the Coaching staff have recognized that a player able to give us more 'frontal pressure' is better than what we can currently put out there as a third tall.

[Iceman234]

Gwilt does everything except hold enough marks.

I have been a critic of Gwilt in the past, yet I really rate his hands and his left foot. Some of his marks are like he has spidy gloves on overhead. And that kick is just awesome.

But he just doesn't get dangerous enough to take anymore than the 4th or 5th defender most times IMO, can't turn on a coin and doesn't chase hard enough.

Come good in the next month JG and I'll forever be a fan.

Dont actually think he has bad hands, just rarely holds the marking opportunities close to goal. The ones that would make him dangerous and really force his man to stay with him.

Havent got any stats or anything just rarely seems to get a set shot IMO.

Not hanging s*** rexy, everyone's perception's are different.

I find myself feeling confident when Jimmy's leading with his hands above, as opposed to standing back 1-on-1.

He does a lot of bullocking work too, but needs to hurt more on the score board.

[Mr Magic]

Can someone please explain what a "lead up forward" actually is?

Milton, I reckon the following players are what we are describing a 'lead up forward' as:-
O'Keefe (Sydney)
Monfries (Essendon)
Steve Johnson (Geelong)
Porplyzia (although a little shorter?)
Mark Williams (Hawthorn)
Robert Murphy (Bulldogs)
Le Cras (WCE) is turning from a small forward into a lead up forward
Jack Reiwoldt

[The darkness]

as an example - for the hawks, barry hall has been touted as a potential lead up forward, along with buddy, to allow roughead to play deeper near the goal square.
i reckon steve johnson fits the bill perfectly - if only mooney and hawkins were better.

who do we have as an option? no one really comes to mind.
Gwilt hasn't shown enough unfortunately.
Hope we look closely at this come draft time.

who is going to play this role in the next few weeks...not at the draft table
We may be forced to stick with Gwilt just to play the role and hope that he pulls his finger out and contributes for 4 quarters...He has all the attributes but fades in and out too much...could be such a damaging player, both physically and on the scoreboard though just doesnt seem to want to impose himself on the game.

[rexy]

I actually disagree about where Roo is his most dangerous.
I believe that early in the game, Roo's most damaging work is done on his continual long searching leads where his opponent is 'put to the sword' fitness wise.
Having watched Roo a lot he seems to 'put the question' to his opponent early and then when the defender is found wanting in his ability to keep up with him, Roo then goes closer to goal.

I think this is a deliberate tactic by Roo and Tudor has set the forward line up around it. The third tall (HFF) is then not so necessary in this scenario. We need someone who can keep the third tall's oppnent (Harley, Maxwell, Hargraves etc) honest so that he cannot zone off and become the 'go-to' outlet player. It's almost become a taller defensive version of McQualter.

If we had an O'Keefe type player on our list then I'm sure we would have a different structure in our forward line. Currently other teams do not seem to pay much respect to Gwilt, believing that we will not use him as a first, second or even third option when going forward.

MM I hear your thoughts about Roo and how he plays in the first half but what about the 2nd half when he does play closer to goal ? Who then becomes the lead up forward or third tall that makes the opposition half back accountable offensively ?

I think our coaching staff have come up with a differnet system of moving the ball in the second half.
It may just be my imagination but I have the feeling that BJ and his booming 50-60m kicks seem to occur more in teh second half than the first?
I reckon in the second half (after Roo has 'burned' his opponent) and he starts closer to goal we actually change the way we deliver the ball into teh forward line.
I think that Roo uses multiple short leads rather than the long searching runs of the first half.
I aslo think that the delivery from the HB line is longer (hence the increased use of BJ, Dal, Joey and Gram) to hit targets closer to goal.

I just think that the Coaching staff have recognized that a player able to give us more 'frontal pressure' is better than what we can currently put out there as a third tall.

I think you are either a very stute observer of the game or you think way to much.

I thought that BJ was getting more attention and was taking a whilst to get into the game and that Roo was more buggered in the second half so didnt do as much running.

Like your explenation better though, think we will win the flag

[Mr Magic]

as an example - for the hawks, barry hall has been touted as a potential lead up forward, along with buddy, to allow roughead to play deeper near the goal square.
i reckon steve johnson fits the bill perfectly - if only mooney and hawkins were better.

who do we have as an option? no one really comes to mind.
Gwilt hasn't shown enough unfortunately.
Hope we look closely at this come draft time.

who is going to play this role in the next few weeks...not at the draft table
We may be forced to stick with Gwilt just to play the role and hope that he pulls his finger out and contributes for 4 quarters...He has all the attributes but fades in and out too much...could be such a damaging player, both physically and on the scoreboard though just doesnt seem to want to impose himself on the game.

From what I hear, Jimmy is a lovely guy, who just lacks confidence.
He doesn't truly believe he belongs in the side.
If he ever gets to the point where he truly accepts he should be there, he could be anything.

[The darkness]

as an example - for the hawks, barry hall has been touted as a potential lead up forward, along with buddy, to allow roughead to play deeper near the goal square.
i reckon steve johnson fits the bill perfectly - if only mooney and hawkins were better.

who do we have as an option? no one really comes to mind.
Gwilt hasn't shown enough unfortunately.
Hope we look closely at this come draft time.

who is going to play this role in the next few weeks...not at the draft table
We may be forced to stick with Gwilt just to play the role and hope that he pulls his finger out and contributes for 4 quarters...He has all the attributes but fades in and out too much...could be such a damaging player, both physically and on the scoreboard though just doesnt seem to want to impose himself on the game.

From what I hear, Jimmy is a lovely guy, who just lacks confidence.
He doesn't truly believe he belongs in the side.
If he ever gets to the point where he truly accepts he should be there, he could be anything.

Oh well thats great...Im sure hes a ripper of a bloke, but how much incentive does a bloke need to pull his finger out and believe in himself...He could be the key to a frekin premiership FFS.
I'll take an arse of a bloke that wants to work his ring off for 4 quarters anyday.