Bit bemused by the Zac sledging

[SydneySainter]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks, all the football critics have been sharpening their razors for him and wont stop questioning the decision to drop Max.

Now Max is my favorite player, but I had no problem with him going back to the VFL. Max only returned to the squad when we lost Gilbo originally, he was then injured and came back after Zac's suspension and we all know we struggle carrying Max, Zac, Blake and Gilbo in the one backline.

Now he has had his hamstring scare, I wouldn't be fussed if the club gave him a weeks rest before the finals. Maybe he would be the better option comes finals time, due to his experience and he obviously a better one-on-one stopper than Zac.

But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year and not let two bad games cloud our perception of him, because Max has had his average moments this year as well, as every player does.

[plugger66]

Just people being racist as usual.

[ausfatcat]

Max is a better player than Zac.

[degruch]

He's the new Raph/Blake/Gwilt...doesn't matter what they do, some people just don't like their haircut, fashion sense, the way they walk, whatever.

[SENsei]

Just people being racist as usual.

Sexist.

[joffaboy]

Just people being racist as usual.

Sexist.

"Jonah, red heads are not a race"

[markp]

Zac over of Max = Agism?

[starsign]

bit amused by Zacs "sledging" ?

opposition players sledge on the field

guess you mean the bagging he's getting here

[SENsei]

I want no tokenism.

I want satisfaction, not girl reaction.

[reincarnated]

Zac is not quality, we have something in the sheds that resembles quality

[SENsei]

I had something behind the shelter sheds in my youth that resembled quality too.

[matrix]

[meher baba]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

[desertsaint]

Agree with above post - zac has been much better than anybody would have suspected. But max is the better defender. The first job of a defender is to STOP his opponent from scoring or even getting his hands on the ball.

If Lyon honestly thinks the saints are more likely to win with what zac brings then he'll play him. I reckon max is a must have if fit, and would be more than a little surprised if he didn't play.

[reincarnated]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

[AlpineStars]

There is a reason I prefer Zac and that is because Max (as he gets older) is very injury prone, I would guess out of his last 25 games he would have failed to finish at least 4, and the Brisbane game this year he was stretchered off for a quarter or so before coming back on.

The way footy is played these days with massive rotations it is crippling to have players injured on the bench.

Zac has had a couple of poor weeks but the rest of his season has been very very solid.

[To the top]

This has been Dawson's first full year of senior football.

It can take a toll as the season wears on.

Previously he had scrambled together just 14 games over a couple of years.

He got his opportunity because we wanted (and needed) insurance for Max - including longer term.

Max went down and in came Zac.

And he has generally performed very well under the instruction and tutoring of Silvagni.

He has shown that he is the apprentice in waiting - and if he can hold and continue to perform he has a spot longer term.

The question will be "if the master returns, do you play the apprentice and allow the master to languish?"

Has the master lost that much versus the apprentice?

When the whips are cracking in September, I would go with the master as my preference.

Dawson's time will come, as will the time of numerous others such as Armitage, Steven, McEvoy and Xavier Clarke who will all push for permanent spots in 2010.

Then there is Maguire.

Without looking at the list, we have Max as our most senior player followed by King and then Gardiner, Milne and Baker and then to Hayes and Blake and then to Riewoldt and Koschitzke.

So we appear to have the bases covered in the immediate future courtesy of the names I have mentioned - and anyone else pushing their credentials as Dawson has done this year.

[saint patrick]

Max is a better player than Zac.

Max is further developed and has years of experience on Zac..Zac has still had a great year and will play a role before its over I have no doubt

[SainterK]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

[reincarnated]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

Reincarnated believes that its great our defence has become such a defensive unit however one out Zac is very average and gets beaten more often than not.

When Zac does not have players around him to help he easily gets out of an effective position to make a spoil or out muscled or beaten on the lead

[SainterK]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

Reincarnated believes that its great our defence has become such a defensive unit however one out Zac is very average and gets beaten more often than not.

When Zac does not have players around him to help he easily gets out of an effective position to make a spoil or out muscled or beaten on the lead

Are you sure you are not SP2008?

[reincarnated]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

Reincarnated believes that its great our defence has become such a defensive unit however one out Zac is very average and gets beaten more often than not.

When Zac does not have players around him to help he easily gets out of an effective position to make a spoil or out muscled or beaten on the lead

Are you sure you are not SP2008?

Reincarnated has been through this a hundred times. There is no parallel between the posters so it would be nice if it would desist. So two posters share views on a particular player? That is what a forum is for.

[SainterK]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

Reincarnated believes that its great our defence has become such a defensive unit however one out Zac is very average and gets beaten more often than not.

When Zac does not have players around him to help he easily gets out of an effective position to make a spoil or out muscled or beaten on the lead

Are you sure you are not SP2008?

Reincarnated has been through this a hundred times. There is no parallel between the posters so it would be nice if it would desist. So two posters share views on a particular player? That is what a forum is for.

Forgive me that I did not have opportunity to read your 100 posts on the matter, I stand corrected and will refrain from making a parallel in future. I am always interested in opinion, and yes that is what this forum is for...

[reincarnated]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

Reincarnated believes that its great our defence has become such a defensive unit however one out Zac is very average and gets beaten more often than not.

When Zac does not have players around him to help he easily gets out of an effective position to make a spoil or out muscled or beaten on the lead

Are you sure you are not SP2008?

Reincarnated has been through this a hundred times. There is no parallel between the posters so it would be nice if it would desist. So two posters share views on a particular player? That is what a forum is for.

Forgive me that I did not have opportunity to read your 100 posts on the matter, I stand corrected and will refrain from making a parallel in future. I am always interested in opinion, and yes that is what this forum is for...

Reincarnated says don't worry matey

[SydneySainter]

Agreed, Zac's last two weeks have been very ordinary, last Sunday's was particularly woeful. But really, has he been alone? Im sure we can all name a few of our "shining lights" who have also been very average.

This is fair enough.

After nothing but amazing football before his suspension and even on his return against the Hawks.......But lets not forget the revelation Zac has been for us this year

This is a massive overstatement and reflects the problem I have with some of the Zac worship which takes place on this forum.

Zac has performed extremely well for a reject from another club who was picked up by us in the rookie draft.

But has he been "amazing" and "a revelation"? Not IMO. I might be prepared to go as far as to say he has been "very good", but we aren't exactly talking Joel Selwood or Cyril Rioli in their first seasons.

On the basis that he has been "very good", should Zac get a game ahead of a fully-fit Max? I don't think so and - by the look of it - nor do some of the commentators in the media.

Also, he did make a rather monumental stuff-up on the weekend. When defenders do this, they don't have much of a comeback: they are there solely to stop goals, so blatantly giving goals away means they have failed.

Is it "sledging" to point these things out? I don't know. But I reckon it's permissable on a fan forum.

Anybody could have played in his positio this year. He is surrounded by a group of defenders who are mature and quality, they know their roles and play it usually quite well

Coupled with strategy of defensive zoning that doesn't enable the opposition to get the ball into the forward 50 as frequently as before Zac does not get the workload he otherwise would have

Again our players assist him big time by making the pack mark more difficult for opposition forwards as everyone seems to flood back and jump in when situation arises

Reincarnated sees Zac's one on one work as very ordinary however it is not often it is seen due to the ball never being down there

It only happens a few times a match however each and every time he is beaten quite convincingly and it might become a worry in a game that actually means something

Reincarnated can see why he is worshipped, most of the faithful are a little clueless

What is wrong with players assisting each other, and what is wrong with the fact he gets help? Isn't he just one part in a group defence?

Reincarnated believes that its great our defence has become such a defensive unit however one out Zac is very average and gets beaten more often than not.

When Zac does not have players around him to help he easily gets out of an effective position to make a spoil or out muscled or beaten on the lead

I disagree.

In the first 16 rounds I can't remember an oppenent who beat him one-on-one, that includes Hall, Tredrea, Rocca, Bradshaw, Mooney, Tippet and Roughead. Sure, there are a few match-ups where you say his opponent may have just taken the honors, but until recently, I think he has been good in one-on-one contests.