Opposition pace is our weakness.

[GrumpyOne]

Essendon loaded up on pace to take us on, and combined with Ryder's prodigous leap enabling Watson et al first use of the ball, only injuries prevented them pantsing us.

Other teams will have taken notice, and will implement the same tactics against us.

We have to develop a tall non-traditional ruckman to counteract this tactic. King has got to be pensioned off and replaced with such a player, otherwise in the future we will be at the mercy of Ryder, Natanui, and the other high-leaping ruckmen who will undoubtedly follow.

[Thinline]

You honestly reckon that at Rd 20 all of a sudden we've been somehow scandalously exposed as slow?

[bigcarl]

we did pick one of our slower teams for the year, actually, and the resting up of cj (in particular) and mcqualter hurt us. there's also geary and steven who we can look at to provide more run if we need it.

but good talls have been one of our great strengths this season, so it is very much a balancing act.

as far as developing a non-traditional ruckman is concerned, look no further than rhys stanley, who is going to be a star down the track.

mcevoy already has claims for selection going on yesterday's rucking efforts.

[Munga]

Stanley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh7XkBvYFd0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk7vA01yVsQ

How's he going at Sandy?

[Thinline]

we did pick one of our slower teams for the year, actually, and the resting up of cj (in particular) and mcqualter hurt us. there's also geary and steven who we can look at to provide more run if we need it.

but good talls have been one of our great strengths this season, so it is very much a balancing act.

as far as developing a non-traditional ruckman is concerned, look no further than rhys stanley, who is going to be a star down the track.

mcevoy already has claims for selection going on yesterday's rucking efforts.

Agree. Reckon McEvoy is a big chance of rejoining the squad simply on the strength of his consistent effort and better mobility. King was a bit of a liability last night.

[meher baba]

All teams with relatively conventional setups and strategies are always going to be occasionally vulnerable to teams that run the ball out of the backline like maniacs, handpassing the ball all over the joint. Adelaide and the Dogs have capitalised on this for years and, this season, the Bombers have joined them.

The point is that, in order to bring the ball out of the backline in this way, you need to take quite a few risks. In some games these risks are going to pay off, in others you are going to turn the ball over and be punished.

I note that no team that plays in this fashion has reached a GF. And the Dogs and Crows and Bombers don't look particularly likely to do it this season either.

It isn't a percentage approach, but you will get the odd upset win, as happened last night.

[Thinline]

All teams with relatively conventional setups and strategies are always going to be occasionally vulnerable to teams that run the ball out of the backline like maniacs, handpassing the ball all over the joint. Adelaide and the Dogs have capitalised on this for years and, this season, the Bombers have joined them.

The point is that, in order to bring the ball out of the backline in this way, you need to take quite a few risks. In some games these risks are going to pay off, in others you are going to turn the ball over and be punished.

I note that no team that plays in this fashion has reached a GF. And the Dogs and Crows and Bombers don't look particularly likely to do it this season either.

It isn't a percentage approach, but you will get the odd upset win, as happened last night.

There's little doubt that plenty went right for the Bombers last night.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

The first time we played Essendon this year their pace also really hurt us. But on that occasion we were still able to apply enough pressure on them to make their ball use ineffective. Yesterday though, they were winning the ball in and under and were able to run in numbers without pressure. And that really exposed our back 6.

Pace has never been our strength all year, but we've been able to counter that by applying enormous pressure.

[Geezer]

essendon are a russian roulette type team . . .just like freo and the tigers.
when the ball is in dispute . . they back themselves and run forward hoping they will get the pill.
it doesnt work when the ball is turned over.
this system doesnt win finals games.
the only difference is their skills are a little bit better than freo and richmond.
they get burned very often on the counter attack.
their style of play doesnt win finals games when you have to play two way football.
a side with good technique, positioning and structure will lock them down and beat them.
thats why they have lost alot of games to middle of the road teams this year.
their defensive structure is suspect and after we negated their run in the 3rd they folded.
was good to see the saints come up against a team like this and adapt on the fly.
during the 2nd quarter when they got a run on they were hittin all targets and kicking goals from anywhere.
we couldnt snag a goal.
i turned to my mate and said "experimenting" when i saw fisher line up forward.
good to see lyon doing somethin different and seeing how postitional changes affect the structure

[Thinline]

essendon are a russian roulette type team . . .just like freo and the tigers.

This post insinuates that Richmond are a team.

With respect, you cannot be serious.

[Geezer]

touche ' i meant rabble . . . and freo . . .bunch of possums ( they get killed on the road)

[Stillwaiting]

All teams with relatively conventional setups and strategies are always going to be occasionally vulnerable to teams that run the ball out of the backline like maniacs, handpassing the ball all over the joint. Adelaide and the Dogs have capitalised on this for years and, this season, the Bombers have joined them.

The point is that, in order to bring the ball out of the backline in this way, you need to take quite a few risks. In some games these risks are going to pay off, in others you are going to turn the ball over and be punished.

I note that no team that plays in this fashion has reached a GF. And the Dogs and Crows and Bombers don't look particularly likely to do it this season either.



It isn't a percentage approach, but you will get the odd upset win, as happened last night.

There's little doubt that plenty went right for the Bombers last night.

I aggree with everything you said, we had a shyte night and evrything worked for them, and yes we had our slowest side in last night

[vacuous space]

Other teams will have taken notice, and will implement the same tactics against us.

I don't think they can. We're going into round 21. By now teams are fairly set in what they do. Essendon have been playing like that for most of the year. It worked particularly well yesterday. There have been other times where it hasn't. Adelaide and the Dogs also like to run, but they haven't fared too well against us. I don't think Geelong, Collingwood, the Dogs, etc will take too much from that game.

The thing that stands out for me is that we were so badly beaten in the contested ball. -28 is our worst result for the season. Our other worst games all resulted in close games. -12 against Geelong; -14 against Carlton; -16 against Sydney. It's something we pride ourselves on winning, and it's important to our structure that we do. A number of players critical to this area were well down (Gilbert, Goddard, Hayes) or missing (Jones, McQualter). Hopefully we can get back to our best by finals.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I agree that opposition pace is clearly our main weakness. Both times against Essendon and also against Carlton (when they had a few very quick little guys cutting us up, forward of centre) we've been exposed. We could easily have lost all 3 of those games.
It's been obvious that we've needed some extreme pace for about 3 years now and it's very important that we have that as our main objective at trading and draft times this year, IMO. I'd send some of our recruiting guys up to the NT for as long as possible. We need at least one or two guys in our team who have lightning speed and great skills over the next few years. Hopefully Tungatalum will be one of them. Essendon for one, will only get better.

[Moccha]

Oh well, better win it before they get too good

[Winmar7Fan]

Essendon loaded up on pace to take us on, and combined with Ryder's prodigous leap enabling Watson et al first use of the ball, only injuries prevented them pantsing us.

Other teams will have taken notice, and will implement the same tactics against us.

We have to develop a tall non-traditional ruckman to counteract this tactic. King has got to be pensioned off and replaced with such a player, otherwise in the future we will be at the mercy of Ryder, Natanui, and the other high-leaping ruckmen who will undoubtedly follow.

Grumpy one you are spot on. When we played them earlier this year their speed also gave us trouble but our talent and structure managed to over come them but they've grown a bit in that area since.

They are a super fast bunch of young kids but what I believe did the damage was the way we responded. Rather than challenge them and just stick with what we do best and live or die by our attacking structure we let them throw us off our game.

Then in the last quarter when we had no option but to go for broke look how quickly they made up the score.

IMO we can be our own worst enemy when we are under pressure and have a tendency to get rattled a bit easy when things aren't going our way and shut down a bit and stop moving the ball on quickly.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Oh well, better win it before they get too good

Or course, but I want to win some after as well.

[GrumpyOne]

Other teams will have taken notice, and will implement the same tactics against us.

I don't think they can. We're going into round 21. By now teams are fairly set in what they do. Essendon have been playing like that for most of the year. It worked particularly well yesterday. There have been other times where it hasn't. Adelaide and the Dogs also like to run, but they haven't fared too well against us. I don't think Geelong, Collingwood, the Dogs, etc will take too much from that game.

This year we will be OK. I am concerned that with a couple of new coaches coming in, and teams like Essendon and West Coast showing the benefit of good drafting, we could see some game plans change considerably over the off season.

We have to field a team in the future that is adaptable to whatever game plan the opposition brings in, whilst still maintaining the strength of our own. If we want to have a decade at the upper end of the ladder, we have to enhance our versatility.

[vacuous space]

We have to field a team in the future that is adaptable to whatever game plan the opposition brings in, whilst still maintaining the strength of our own. If we want to have a decade at the upper end of the ladder, we have to enhance our versatility.

I think we've proven as adaptable as anyone over the first 20 rounds. I'm still not sure that we are weak against quicker running teams. Yesterday wasn't the first time we had face a team that tried to run against us. We played Adelaide and the Bulldogs in rounds 16 and 17 and they didn't come close. We'd previously beaten Essendon, Brisbane and Geelong - all of whom like to run and carry. I think it's false logic to say we lost to Essendon, Essendon like to run, therefore we are weak against the run.

[To the top]

I agree that Essendon had one of those nights when everything went right for them.

Mongrel kicks under pressure went 15 metres to a chest - inside the 50 and a goal.

Gilbert getting not one but two fickle bounces when he had every right to control the ball - but did not so the ball remained in contest and another goal.

It just seemed that every toe poke on the ball went to Essendon's advantage.

But, of course, this game was under the roof at Docklands.

IF the game was played at the MCG, under the outside weather conditions such as we had yesterday, where is Essendon's game and what is their alternate game?

It may be that Watson would still dominate standing under the rucking contests - but what after that?

Ironically Essendon claim that Lucas and Lloyd were absent, but the structure of the back line we went in with would have accomodated Lucas and Lloyd better than it did the smaller, nippier forward line we did confront.

Our problem was the lack of control by our on-ballers, the lack of defensive pressure by them and that magnified to pressure on our defensive 6 being Max, Dawson, Blake, Fisher (after quarter time), Gilbert, Baker and Clarke.

And too often they were zoning off and finding themselves chasing shadows.

Baker, for all his efforts and endeavour, was slow.

Clarke was accountable for an opponent, but found that opponent with just to much uncontested support.

And the rest were made to look cumbersome by comparison with their opponents and those in support of their opponents.

They just got too many players far too free far too often - and they made their own luck accordingly.

There ruck tactic was to jump early - and that worked also.

As I mentioned elsewhere pre match, but no one seems to have picked up on, I would have gone with King and 3 mid-fielders as the bench from the 7 named on Thursday night.

The reason was that we knew what Essendon were going to try because they tried last time and pestered us - and to have the likes of Blake and Dempster as 2 of the 7 retained off the extended interchange bench played into their hands particularly when we had Max, Dawson and Fisher named in our back 6.

The position of needing mid-fielder support (and I look at particularly Steven after his promising debut) was accentuated when Jones withdrew.

Simply, against the way Essendon played at Docklands under the roof, Ball and Armitage of our mids were exposed.

IF the game was at the MCG under those weather conditions they would not have been so exposed.

That is the conundrum.

Incidentally, the one very, very good piece of news was that Kosi did not finish with a fractured jaw - then again the spoiling hit that had him being tested for concussion and reflex abilities at quarter time could not have been accross the head because no free kick was paid - and it was inside our F50.

But do not get me started on the green maggots!

[Beej]

Essendon loaded up on pace to take us on, and combined with Ryder's prodigous leap enabling Watson et al first use of the ball, only injuries prevented them pantsing us.

Other teams will have taken notice, and will implement the same tactics against us.

How will other teams implement the same tactics against us?

"Mr Mumford, we need you to jump like Patty Ryder"

"Didak, mate, run faster"

No matter how good a side is, they can always get beat.

When a side get a run-on as Essendon did last night, there's not much you can do to stop it. We switched off momentarily. They were in a zone.

We've been good enough to stop that happening for 19 games which is an extraordinary effort.

What last night proved is that for a side to beat us, they need to be play football at an unbelievable level.

The Bombers may never reach that level again for the remainder of the season. In fact, I bet they don't.

[saintsRrising]

Essendon loaded up on pace to take us on,.

The reason why the Dons dominated several quarters was that they beat us easily in winning the contested ball.

Importantly they did this in the centre BEFORE we could get numbers at an around the contest.

Ryder's deft palm work gave the Dons a big advantage and provided an abject Case study to those that do not believe that ruckwork can provide an advantage.


After all that yes their pace helped...but it only helped. Their contested ball winning ability was the difference.

Fortunately none of our main finals opponents have a high leaping ruckman that can tap well. But they do have midfields that can win good contested ball...so we need to be on our game.

[saintsRrising]

We have to develop a tall non-traditional ruckman to counteract this tactic. .

Have no fear..Stanley is on his way.

[GrumpyOne]

Essendon loaded up on pace to take us on, and combined with Ryder's prodigous leap enabling Watson et al first use of the ball, only injuries prevented them pantsing us.

Other teams will have taken notice, and will implement the same tactics against us.

How will other teams implement the same tactics against us?

"Mr Mumford, we need you to jump like Patty Ryder"

"Didak, mate, run faster"

That's a bit simplistic OLB.

My point is the player of the next five years will be running faster and jumping higher. Skill levels will keep some of the plodding midfielders in the game, but the monster-shuffling ruckman's days are numbered.

I don't want just one premiership, I want a decade or more at the top, so that future premierships will become routine.

[Moccha]

I bet Fremantle cream Essendon at Subiaco